OPEN LETTER to Donald, Patrick & Amir RE: Bitcoinica

[disclaimer201]

Well, not to forget Zhou is running a business again, too.

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[repentance]

Is Intersango guy are trying to eat our money and refuse to pay back us?

As far as I'm aware, everyone's funds are currently in a frozen MtGox account which can't be accessed by anyone associated with Bitcoinica.  What the Intersango guys are doing is refusing to sign the paperwork which would allow Bitcoinica to be put into liquidation without a High Court order.

[vampire]

I think tseale and his gang should release intersango guys from their NDA.

[bitcoinBull]

I think tseale and his gang should release intersango guys from their NDA.

For what point? genjix violated the NDA already anyway by leaking those e-mails (not to mention the bitcoinica source code).

If tseale ever accomplishes whatever legal paperwork is necessary to give customer funds back, I'm still curious about how he plans to process bitcoinica deposit claims without the database. I'd like to know if the Intersango guys gave him their progress on claims verification or if they are holding it from him.

[Transisto]

I think tseale and his gang should release intersango guys from their NDA.

For what point? genjix violated the NDA already anyway by leaking those e-mails (not to mention the bitcoinica source code).

If tseale ever accomplishes whatever legal paperwork is necessary to give customer funds back, I'm still curious about how he plans to process bitcoinica deposit claims without the database. I'd like to know if the Intersango guys gave him their progress on claims verification or if they are holding it from him.

At first I though the "inaccuracy" of the process was what made this so lengthy.  The current state is that Intersango guy did what they "though" was the best and stopped everything.  So now what was the best to Patrick may not be what is the best for the person taking the process over.
 Unfortunately it would seems Intersango / Bitcoin Consultancy guys are planing on using the "progress data" in hostage for protecting themselves from the numerous error they made afterward.

Maybe they think they should be paid for having handled the process half way.

I would like to remember you that the Intersango's are not the only responsible for our problems.  From Zhou to Tihan everyone who delegated the responsibility of our accounts and fund had a duties of doing so correctly.

We haven't even been notified by email of the transfer of ownership or allowed time to withdraw our funds.

Tihan and Zhou have with some success been able to defend their point while the ones at the center of it refuse to even make a statement.

I am counting every hours I spent waiting for constructive actions from Patrick Strateman, Amir, and Donald and they won't get away with it if that wait amount to nothing more than an empty stalling tactic.

[repentance]

If tseale ever accomplishes whatever legal paperwork is necessary to give customer funds back, I'm still curious about how he plans to process bitcoinica deposit claims without the database. I'd like to know if the Intersango guys gave him their progress on claims verification or if they are holding it from him.

We do know that Zhou had access to the database during the original refund process so it's possible that Tihan or Zhou had a complete copy of it.  we know that Zhou has at least a partial user list because he used it to spam Bitcoinica users about NameTerrific. If Wendon doesn't have access to the database, that's one of the things first things the liquidator will look to obtain from the Intersango guys - taking control of all company records is one of the first duties of a liquidator.  Patrick has said he'll co-operate with the liquidator - I guess we'll just have to see how that pans out with respect to user records.

There's no question that the High Court will make an order for Bitcoinica to be put into liquidation.  Tihan will have nothing to do with the distribution process beyond co-operating with the liquidator when requested (identifying the MtGox account and any other accounts in which funds are currently frozen would be an example of this).  

[bitclown]

We do know that Zhou had access to the database during the original refund process so it's possible that Tihan or Zhou had a complete copy of it.  we know that Zhou has at least a partial user list because he used it to spam Bitcoinica users about NameTerrific.

I filed a claim on day one, but never received Zhou's infamous "I-swear-it-wasn't-me" mail, so I don't think the claims db was his source.

[flower1024]

We do know that Zhou had access to the database during the original refund process so it's possible that Tihan or Zhou had a complete copy of it.  we know that Zhou has at least a partial user list because he used it to spam Bitcoinica users about NameTerrific.

I filed a claim on day one, but never received Zhou's infamous "I-swear-it-wasn't-me" mail, so I don't think the claims db was his source.

eh?
do you mean you filled a claim and did not have a bitcoinica account?

[bitclown]

We do know that Zhou had access to the database during the original refund process so it's possible that Tihan or Zhou had a complete copy of it.  we know that Zhou has at least a partial user list because he used it to spam Bitcoinica users about NameTerrific.

I filed a claim on day one, but never received Zhou's infamous "I-swear-it-wasn't-me" mail, so I don't think the claims db was his source.

eh?
do you mean you filled a claim and did not have a bitcoinica account?

They didn't have off-site backups of their database, hence the whole claim process. Only some users could be instantly verified by older backups and reports they still had.

[bitcoinBull]

I would like to remember you that the Intersango's are not the only responsible for our problems.  From Zhou to Tihan everyone who delegated the responsibility of our accounts and fund had a duties of doing so correctly.

Definitely. I'd say 95%+ probability that it was Zhou who did the last theft using the LastPass password. I think he only found out the source code was leaked five days after the fact (source leaked on monday, theft happened on friday). And it was on top of the prior theft due to bitcoinicaconsultancy's email being breached (and intersango crew still tried to blame that on zhou). So zhou was doubly mad already, then decided to check if they had changed the LastPass password he gave to Tihan.

If tseale ever accomplishes whatever legal paperwork is necessary to give customer funds back, I'm still curious about how he plans to process bitcoinica deposit claims without the database. I'd like to know if the Intersango guys gave him their progress on claims verification or if they are holding it from him.

We do know that Zhou had access to the database during the original refund process so it's possible that Tihan or Zhou had a complete copy of it.  we know that Zhou has at least a partial user list because he used it to spam Bitcoinica users about NameTerrific. If Wendon doesn't have access to the database, that's one of the things first things the liquidator will look to obtain from the Intersango guys - taking control of all company records is one of the first duties of a liquidator.  Patrick has said he'll co-operate with the liquidator - I guess we'll just have to see how that pans out with respect to user records.

I'm not sure what you mean here by "database". The database was on RackSpace and it was deleted, no current copies existed at the time. Zhou only had some old copies (he never said how old because that would've made it easier for people to file false claims). That's why Intersango had to reconstruct it from blockchain deposit records, mtgox code records, and claims filed. If I remember correctly, they said they believed they had verified 80% of the funds to valid claims but they were still in the process of collecting more information from claims filers before SHTF. For example, I filed my initial claim but then later sent them my mtgox deposit code when they requested them to their claims.bitcoinica@gmail address (or whatever it was). So there was a lot of still-in-progress work on verifying the claims which was being done, and still remains.

Its rather lucky that there was so much stability around $5 prior to the hack. Had there been some volatility, there would have been much incentive for users to file false claims with respect to positions they had right before the hack and they would have been difficult to falsify. Claims like "I made a 10k BTC deposit" two days before the hack are easily falsified by lack of blockchain or mtgox code records.

There's no question that the High Court will make an order for Bitcoinica to be put into liquidation.  Tihan will have nothing to do with the distribution process beyond co-operating with the liquidator when requested (identifying the MtGox account and any other accounts in which funds are currently frozen would be an example of this).  

Best case outcome would be for Intersango to turn over all their records (claims by users and all additional info sent) and the progress they made. Then for MtGox to continue handling the claims and payouts (they already did this once when they bought the polish exchange bitomat.pl after all the coins and data there was lost).

[tseale]

Donald, Patrick and Amir have not signed the resolution to appoint a liquidator. They have provided no reason for refusing to do so.

Bitcoinica's investors have been forced to file an action with the High Court of New Zealand. A hearing has been scheduled for Nov 1.

It is likely that this must be the first of several hearings, separated by weeks or months. Unfortunately there is little that can be done to expedite the process without cooperation from Bitcoinica's managing members.

[myself]

Bitcoinica Liquidation Information

2012-10-03
    No update.
2012-10-02
    No update.
2012-10-01
    No update.
2012-09-31
    No update.
2012-09-30
    No update.
2012-09-29
    No update.
2012-09-28
    No update.
2012-09-27
    No update.
2012-09-26
    No update.

http://bitcoinica.com/

[repentance]

Bitcoinica Liquidation Information

2012-10-03
    No update.
2012-10-02
    No update.
2012-10-01
    No update.
2012-09-31
    No update.
2012-09-30
    No update.
2012-09-29
    No update.
2012-09-28
    No update.
2012-09-27
    No update.
2012-09-26
    No update.

http://bitcoinica.com/

Patrick being a smart-ass, I assume.

[repentance]

Best case outcome would be for Intersango to turn over all their records (claims by users and all additional info sent) and the progress they made. Then for MtGox to continue handling the claims and payouts (they already did this once when they bought the polish exchange bitomat.pl after all the coins and data there was lost).

MtGox was only able to do that because they bought bitomat.pl.  They have no legal authority to takeover the payout process for Bitcoinica and nor can that authority be granted to them by the LP if Bitcoinica is insolvent - not that anyone in their right mind other than a liquidator would touch the payout process at this point.  Anyone who turns records or funds over to anyone other than a liquidator at this point is leaving themselves wide open liability-wise - which is why Gox won't unfreeze Bitcoinica's MtGox account until legal authority to access the funds is established.

[ninjarobot]

Bitcoinica Liquidation Information

2012-10-03
    No update.
2012-10-02
    No update.
2012-10-01
    No update.
2012-09-31
    No update.
2012-09-30
    No update.
2012-09-29
    No update.
2012-09-28
    No update.
2012-09-27
    No update.
2012-09-26
    No update.

http://bitcoinica.com/

Patrick being a smart-ass, I assume.

Yeah, hilarious. Why is this guy so spiteful against his customers?

The Google cache of the previous version is still up, just in case some of the statements made earlier on this domain can be used in court (e.g. 'all withdrawal requests will be honored', etc.):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bitcoinica.com&hl=en&prmd=imvns&strip=1

[phantomcircuit]

Bitcoinica Liquidation Information

2012-10-03
    No update.
2012-10-02
    No update.
2012-10-01
    No update.
2012-09-31
    No update.
2012-09-30
    No update.
2012-09-29
    No update.
2012-09-28
    No update.
2012-09-27
    No update.
2012-09-26
    No update.

http://bitcoinica.com/

Patrick being a smart-ass, I assume.

Yeah, hilarious. Why is this guy so spiteful against his customers?

The Google cache of the previous version is still up, just in case some of the statements made earlier on this domain can be used in court (e.g. 'all withdrawal requests will be honored', etc.):
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bitcoinica.com&hl=en&prmd=imvns&strip=1

The original site was hit with a substantial DDoS attack while hosted at rackspace.

The news site has now been moved to linode as Bitcoinica has a fairly large credit there.

The list of no updates is genuinely an attempt to notice people that someone is still alive at bitcoinica but that there is actually nothing new to say.

We're all waiting on the proper legal process to go forward.

[ninjarobot]

The original site was hit with a substantial DDoS attack while hosted at rackspace.

The news site has now been moved to linode as Bitcoinica has a fairly large credit there.

The list of no updates is genuinely an attempt to notice people that someone is still alive at bitcoinica but that there is actually nothing new to say.

We're all waiting on the proper legal process to go forward.

I see. thanks for the clarification Patrick. It looks like I have misinterpreted your intent here, my apologies.

That said, I would prefer if the original statements made by Bitcoinica on bitcoinica.com would have remained available until this case is finally resolved.

[bitcoinBull]

The original site was hit with a substantial DDoS attack while hosted at rackspace.

The news site has now been moved to linode as Bitcoinica has a fairly large credit there.

The list of no updates is genuinely an attempt to notice people that someone is still alive at bitcoinica but that there is actually nothing new to say.

We're all waiting on the proper legal process to go forward.

Thanks for these updates, genuinely appreciated.

Can you say anything more about the "proper legal process"? Is that the Nov 4 court date which tihan has announced?

[bitcoinBull]

The original site was hit with a substantial DDoS attack while hosted at rackspace.

The news site has now been moved to linode as Bitcoinica has a fairly large credit there.

The list of no updates is genuinely an attempt to notice people that someone is still alive at bitcoinica but that there is actually nothing new to say.

We're all waiting on the proper legal process to go forward.

Thanks for these updates, genuinely appreciated.

Can you say anything more about the "proper legal process"? Is that the Nov 4 court date which tihan has announced?

bump.

[Yankee (BitInstant)]

I heard that court papers were served at the London Conference to Amir, Patrick, ect.. and Donald ran away and didn't show up for 3 days.

Can anyone confirm?