Discussion about Tactics used on BCT

[Crestington]

its not trolling or fud when you are trying to understand the product. there were clear problems in the initial proposal. just because you want to invest & had good interactions with whocares doesnt translate into non questioning undying love from the larger community. trust is earned not demanded. also some people made money with GAW but it doesnt mean it was right

you have to separate people from ideas. ridiculing ideas is perfectly fine and should be done. no idea is perfect from the get go, it has to evolve to be a good one. the doctor might have good intentions but it needs real work. reason for extra scrutiny is due to the fact that some people from the HT community tried to regain their losses by starting ponzis and other scams (tntcoin and what not). to the doctors credit he didnt remove all posts from his thread and communicated in a way that could gain him trust and respect in the long run. role of the dev was left quite unclear. was he there to generate value for his other project, hired to just dev it or what. because they shared one account to post it turned very convoluted. transparency > *

ps:
garza told a terminally ill person to invest his nest egg after his initial investment into GAW. that guy lost his legacy due to the overall attitude of not asking questions. (to make it less sad one guy from the "original 19" gave him 10k to leave something behind for his wife)

Thank you, saved me typing my own response  

Bagholding is a very bad motivation, worse than the other big reason why people get into crypto (greed). A bagholder trying to recover his/her lost "investment" by cooking up another scheme is like a gambler who just lost a yolo bet and is borrowing money to win it all back. Would you lend money to such person?

All those post-XPY schemes should be considered more dangerous than any other shitcoin for that reason alone IMHO.

I do not disagree with what many of you have stated.  I would like to respond to some of the replies.  I did lose some on Paycoin and ignored the warning signs, big mistake but it wasn't much money.  I bought an account because I think if I post with my real account I will be ridiculed for a mistake I made and do not wish to have my personal life brought into your thread.  

In response to another couple of comments, yes I am aware of the guy with terminal cancer that Josh screwed.  I cannot remember his name on HT but I think it started with the letter "T' and I believe he did some design work.  I am also aware that you guys were on JG before the emails were leaked or made available and I apologized in a previous post, if I didn't then I apologize now.

His screen name was Trixster and was also active a bit on the GetHashing forums as well.

I was one of the guys that was on HT for a long time and saw many people come and go.  I do know that many on the GAW thread have been ridiculed for trying to help those that did lose.  Just because people have a desire to try and get a coin back on its feet and that coin was a HUGE scam by JG does not mean they are a scammer. I also see your points that it will be exceedingly difficult because it is a flawed coin to begin with.

This just comes back to doing the things that need to be done and helping in the most effective way and facing whatever people are going to say head on and make no apologies about it. If someone is going to try to embarrass you how are they going to succeed if you are open and upfront about the things that you are doing? Hack into your emails and release all your private information? What if everything in private is exactly the same things said in public?

I do see the point that it is definitely a riskier endeavor to invest in an HT members coin than someone that did not potentially lose money on Paycoin.  Once again, you are assuming that Whocares lost money, when in reality it was stated on multiple threads by a lot of members that Whocares didn't even start on Paycoin until late in the game.

If Whocares does have good intentions and you have good intentions (preventing scams and protecting people), wouldn't it have been easier to contact him or another team member and say "listen, many of us have a problem with you coming out with a coin that resembles Paycoin, particularly since you were an active HT member.  We strongly advise you to rethink the coin" or hell, maybe even add in a small incentive (aka threat) like "or we will haunt you down like that scumbag JG'

If you contact someone privately asking them if it's a scam and they tell you it isn't, then that will not make it a scam? What if you asked the wrong questions and the information provided was false but you believed it and then other people based their judgments on your personal analysis?

That at least gives an honest person something to consider and allows them to respond.  I can tell you from my point of view, I am scared to death of you guys and want none of you crawling up my ass, not because I am scared of what you will find but because I do not want to deal with the embarassment that I have seen on the GAW thread because I made a dumb ass move.

You should never be scared to hide information because you are afraid of what other people might think or people would use that information to try to embarrass you. Information is only embarrassing if you deem it so, people pick up on this and jump on it, this is the internet and what people say about the things you do really does not matter in the slightest. Some of the best advice I was ever given was "to own your mistakes" because everyone is going to make mistakes, it's part of life but you cannot learn from your mistakes if you cannot face them, accept them and learn from them.

I am not here to promote anyone or anything accept to possibly enlighten a few people that a different approach from some of you could do a lot of good for crypto and BCT.  There is so much hate and trolling that it makes it impossible for someone that may have a good idea to foster that idea.  I am not saying that scammers should get off easy or that 90+% of coins aren't scams.

Like I have said before, it is very obvious that many of you know crypto very well, I just think that your talents could also be used to benefit crypto in a positive way.

I pissed off Whocares/kilo17 on the Bitstone thread for making this thread because he said it was uncalled for and very inflammatory.  So again I want to apologize for the OP.  I have invited him to post here on the thread for what I think could be potentially invaluable feedback.

"Hate and trolling" is the reality on the internet and if you cannot accept that and discuss the issues that people have a problem with in a mature manner then you should not be doing this kind of work. Face life head on, you will always come out ahead because if you are not then those things will build up until they get out of control.

You are saying that Whocares/kilo17 are angry because you are discussing these things, I see that as a red flag for investing in their project since they should be the ones answering peoples questions.

Valid points to debate. I think the dialog we are having is helping me understand for sure.  While I do agree with you on most of your points, consider this: the first post on the BitStone thread were a link to an unmoderated thread- which I am not saying in and of itself was wrong,  I am saying that in that thread it was nothing but a bunch of personal attacks and posts that were copied from the GAW thread.  Those types of comments have no value to a coin release and most if not all were simply FUD.  

Secondly, I do think the first posts from several of the GAW thread regulars on the BitStone thread were scam accusations and offered no real reasoning.  Some of the posts after that had VERY valid points, no doubt.  The problem in my eyes is this, if a person comes on a thread and the first post is SCAM then all post after that are soured.  Having said that, it is exactly what I did on this thread and I appreciate you continuing to discuss matters with me.

Lastly, I apparently did not make myself clear.  Kilo17 was angry at me for the OP (meaning the original post I made) - which most of you were also upset about.

I do appreciate your replies.

Anyone serious about investing is going to wade through the FUD and decide for themselves based heavily on how those questions are answered, if they provide no real reasoning then people would see that as well. I looked through the thread and also saw that instead of attempting to answer these questions that the conversation was shifted into deflection mode. Regardless of FUD or not, the questions people were asking were never answered and talking about the tactics used in ascertaining the truth still does not make the project any more legitimate or plausible.

[kilo17]

Hello everyone

I want to start off by saying BitStone has flaws and those flaws are going to be addressed....the flaws were pointed out by a number of sources including those listed below-

1-points that were brought up on the thread by Suchmoon and Paul Revere...
2- points brought up by other respected crypto guys
3- my attorney -

I do appreciate the input and hopefully I can get some feedback as BitStone progresses. Often times the strongest critics can have the most valuable info...

It was mentioned here and elsewhere about my involvement with Paycoin.  I originally bought $300-400 in Hashlets when they first came out.  I sold those Haslets within a week....  I mined Paycoin in December and dumped Paycoin in December....Kilo17 was banned from HT for bashing Josh.... I engaged Paycoin again around the CoinStand fiasco and then stuck around and ultimately decided I was going to open a Gem Store for Paycoin.  The idea of the gold/silver was a later addition after I was in talks with the Foundation and Team-- the idea was to get subsidized, initially it was 20,000 XPY for the gems and later on it when the gold and silver came into play it would need to be 100,000+ XPY.  These funds were to be used to subsidize the discounts.  Based on a previous conversation I had with the Team/Foundation I thought the 100,000+ was going to happen and was going to be used to subsidize the gold/silver and Apple products that were mentioned.  Those funds ultimately were not made available and the store was not opened....

I announced to the Team/Foundation and the HT community that I was parting ways and going to create a coin and store without all the attached paycoin baggage.  Sold all but 8000 XPY which are sitting in BTClend and I cannot get out....

I do agree with a lot of the comments that Suchmoon and Paul Revere have made and hindsight is 20/20.  I also spoke to my attorney (yes on a Saturday-he is a friend) and explained what was going on with the Stones and the Coin.  His response was "Thats a fucking horrible idea" in regards to the coin and the gems being asscociated, even if they were 2 separate entities.  The fact that they are being released together would definitely raise eyebrows with some 3 letter organizations.  

As for the stones, I do have the stones and they are real.  I do not have the exact value of them but it is in the $1m range- which as pointed out on the thread would have needed some additional documentation to prove...

For the comments on using part of the team as the escrow - another horrible idea.....

Comments on the premine and how its distributed - I see the point and understand NOW how it would be difficult to truly show who is buying what....

Another problem is the association of the BST numbers and the Paycoin numbers as far as Premine etc.  Honestly that was just a HUGE oversight and I never considered it being associated in that way....

[owlcatz]

I just want to thank people for coming clean so to speak (I hope) on this coin and their experiences.... Let's hope the scam accusation thread gets tossed in the trash bin by the mods.

[kilo17]

Thank you.  I have nothing to hide and obviously made many mistakes on the BitStone release....BST was not put on hold because it was a scam...it was put on hold because it was heavily flawed...

[owlcatz]

Thank you.  I have nothing to hide and obviously made many mistakes on the BitStone release....BST was not put on hold because it was a scam...it was put on hold because it was heavily flawed...

fair enough, but if you are really putting up gems against a crypto coin, you need a real lawyer, unlike any that homero ever had.

[kilo17]

Thank you.  I have nothing to hide and obviously made many mistakes on the BitStone release....BST was not put on hold because it was a scam...it was put on hold because it was heavily flawed...

fair enough, but if you are really putting up gems against a crypto coin, you need a real lawyer, unlike any that homero ever had.

I have a real attorney unlike Garbanzo's attorney. Most likely I am going to open the store to accept different coins and then release a coin.  Shit, after the project went up in flames yesterday I am not sure what would be best to do first...the coin or the store...

[Phildo]

Before you do anything, you need to realize that the gem paycoin thing was going to fail with or without the subsidy.

IF they gave you a shitload of coins, you would need to sell them to pay for your gems, that would crash the price. No one was going to buy enough coins to get your gems because there are a ton of people who paid more than your discount was for their paycoins, so if some rando saw that they could buy $1k worth of xpy and get $1.2k worth of gold, they wouldn't do enough to raise the price to counter the scumbags who paid 0 for coins and the bagholders who paid $4-20 who would be rushing to sell their coins.

You had the same problem here, you were going to give people coins for x, then just expect people a week later to pay more. The ICO people are going to dump to take a profit, and when no one buys the coins you took in exchange for gems for a markup you are going to end up dumping yourself or just screwing people over when they come to you looking for gems.

You got conned by some people who are apparently good crooks with GAW, actually learn from it, don't be so defensive when people point out mistakes, and don't get yourself into more trouble by trying to undo that past.

Edit: why start your own coin? Just sell the gems.

[kilo17]

Before you do anything, you need to realize that the gem paycoin thing was going to fail with or without the subsidy.

IF they gave you a shitload of coins, you would need to sell them to pay for your gems, that would crash the price. No one was going to buy enough coins to get your gems because there are a ton of people who paid more than your discount was for their paycoins, so if some rando saw that they could buy $1k worth of xpy and get $1.2k worth of gold, they wouldn't do enough to raise the price to counter the scumbags who paid 0 for coins and the bagholders who paid $4-20 who would be rushing to sell their coins.

You had the same problem here, you were going to give people coins for x, then just expect people a week later to pay more. The ICO people are going to dump to take a profit, and when no one buys the coins you took in exchange for gems for a markup you are going to end up dumping yourself or just screwing people over when they come to you looking for gems.

You got conned by some people who are apparently good crooks with GAW, actually learn from it, don't be so defensive when people point out mistakes, and don't get yourself into more trouble by trying to undo that past.

Actually there was a lot of discussion about it crashing the price and me losing my ass, many ideas were tossed around including using the BTC the team was refunded by Cryptsy after the last dump of coins.  The problem was that the number of BTC was obviously limited.  The BST idea with a high percentage ICO actually stemmed from that exact issue. The thought process was that if there are less miners then there will be less dumping.  Obviously that is my perspective and I am sure the other members of the Team have theirs.  It was flawed thinking.

[kilo17]

Actually, you are correct...the Paycoin Store was set to fail no matter how it was going to be opened.

Edit-
I also want to point out that the statements I am making are my thoughts and experiences.  I do not want anyone to think it is MasterTrader777's opinion.  I am here on my own accord and want opinions from this community.

[kilo17]

Before you do anything, you need to realize that the gem paycoin thing was going to fail with or without the subsidy.

IF they gave you a shitload of coins, you would need to sell them to pay for your gems, that would crash the price. No one was going to buy enough coins to get your gems because there are a ton of people who paid more than your discount was for their paycoins, so if some rando saw that they could buy $1k worth of xpy and get $1.2k worth of gold, they wouldn't do enough to raise the price to counter the scumbags who paid 0 for coins and the bagholders who paid $4-20 who would be rushing to sell their coins.

You had the same problem here, you were going to give people coins for x, then just expect people a week later to pay more. The ICO people are going to dump to take a profit, and when no one buys the coins you took in exchange for gems for a markup you are going to end up dumping yourself or just screwing people over when they come to you looking for gems.

You got conned by some people who are apparently good crooks with GAW, actually learn from it, don't be so defensive when people point out mistakes, and don't get yourself into more trouble by trying to undo that past.

Edit: why start your own coin? Just sell the gems.

This may sound corny as shit, but I am a crypto advocate and just want to do something good for crypto.  I can't offer programming skills to crypto because I cannot program.  People aren't looking to pay for their Pap Smear with crypto at an Ob/Gyn office.  I have some art and gems I have been collecting and think I can somehow help bring something new to crypto.

Maybe I am a dreamer. 

[Phildo]

Miners/investors who cares?

There is no difference between mining or investing. A miner pays x in equipment/energy to get coins. The investor pays you y to get a coin. They are both paying to get coins, and there is nothing you can do to stop them from selling their coins for more than x or y.

And saying you are going to "back" the coin with anything (gems/cash/btc) won't work because then there is nothing for YOU to do with the coin except to dump it, which will either result in the price going down, or you eventually running out of backing as people buy the coins on the market for less than you are offering and flip them back to you immediately.

[Phildo]

You are a dreamer but you are dreaming complete and total fantasy.

Just sell your art/gems for bitcoin. there are less issues if you do that because people won't drastically change the price acquiring coins to give you, and you won't drastically change the price trying keep things going.

Do something good for crypto by showing that there is a business in crypto that isn't run by a scumbag thief by accepting bitcoin and then using it to pay your bills or just sell some to pay your bills. Why reinvent the wheel? Money works because I can give the pizza guy 20 bucks, he can give me a pizza and take what I gave him to make more pizza AND pay his mortgage. Bitcoin can't go all the way around the circle but it comes pretty close and is big enough that it can work.

A new coin won't work until you can pay your mortgage with it without fucking someone else over, and you can't do that and someone is going to get fucked in that scenario.

[suchmoon]

I am not here to promote anyone or anything accept to possibly enlighten a few people that a different approach from some of you could do a lot of good for crypto and BCT.  There is so much hate and trolling that it makes it impossible for someone that may have a good idea to foster that idea.  I am not saying that scammers should get off easy or that 90+% of coins aren't scams.

Thank you for what sounds like a much more reasonable response. Also thanks to kilo17 for explaining the situation. I might disagree with what you guys are saying but nevertheless I can respect that.

One note though. I don't think there is any hate. Not on my part anyway. That's a loaded word from Garza's dictionary. As well as FUD etc. None of it matters if you're running an honest venture. Do trolls affect Bitmain or Coinbase in any way? Don't think so. There are plenty of coins too that have survived Bitcointalk so it's not like it's impossible to do anything, it's more like a test that if you can't pass maybe the idea isn't as brilliant as it seemed.

Take Crestington for example, I don't think I've ever seen him lash out no matter how hard he's trolled, and he's running a frickin' parody coin with a "con" in its name. Hire him next time you start something and you'll be certifiably troll-proof

[kilo17]

I am not here to promote anyone or anything accept to possibly enlighten a few people that a different approach from some of you could do a lot of good for crypto and BCT.  There is so much hate and trolling that it makes it impossible for someone that may have a good idea to foster that idea.  I am not saying that scammers should get off easy or that 90+% of coins aren't scams.

Thank you for what sounds like a much more reasonable response. Also thanks to kilo17 for explaining the situation. I might disagree with what you guys are saying but nevertheless I can respect that.

One note though. I don't think there is any hate. Not on my part anyway. That's a loaded word from Garza's dictionary. As well as FUD etc. None of it matters if you're running an honest venture. Do trolls affect Bitmain or Coinbase in any way? Don't think so. There are plenty of coins too that have survived Bitcointalk so it's not like it's impossible to do anything, it's more like a test that if you can't pass maybe the idea isn't as brilliant as it seemed.

Take Crestington for example, I don't think I've ever seen him lash out no matter how hard he's trolled, and he's running a frickin' parody coin with a "con" in its name. Hire him next time you start something and you'll be certifiably troll-proof

Hey, i don't mind a little fun being poked at me- i am a gynecologist and get plenty of jokes about that.  I did feel like I was being judged before I ever had a chance to prove I was legit.  Looking back, i am glad it happened the way it did.  I have had some time to digest a lot of the info and realize that I got very defensive and closed minded.  

I am most likely, (or certainly) going to open the store and use a Very Respected member as an escrow service to establish myself.  I see the points made above about the coin.  I will not say I am not going to release one but it will definitely be approached in a different way if/when I do.  

I do not expect people to just trust me and I have no problem earning it.  As I said, I am glad it happened the way it did.

Lastly,
I did make that website that was mentioned yesterday --  i don't recall the exact address but think its www.fuckyoujosh.org in case you guys have any new funny pics for me to add  

[Crestington]

I am not here to promote anyone or anything accept to possibly enlighten a few people that a different approach from some of you could do a lot of good for crypto and BCT.  There is so much hate and trolling that it makes it impossible for someone that may have a good idea to foster that idea.  I am not saying that scammers should get off easy or that 90+% of coins aren't scams.

Thank you for what sounds like a much more reasonable response. Also thanks to kilo17 for explaining the situation. I might disagree with what you guys are saying but nevertheless I can respect that.

One note though. I don't think there is any hate. Not on my part anyway. That's a loaded word from Garza's dictionary. As well as FUD etc. None of it matters if you're running an honest venture. Do trolls affect Bitmain or Coinbase in any way? Don't think so. There are plenty of coins too that have survived Bitcointalk so it's not like it's impossible to do anything, it's more like a test that if you can't pass maybe the idea isn't as brilliant as it seemed.

Take Crestington for example, I don't think I've ever seen him lash out no matter how hard he's trolled, and he's running a frickin' parody coin with a "con" in its name. Hire him next time you start something and you'll be certifiably troll-proof

Who's been trolling me? I don't think anyone has ever trolled me? I'm just like really really ridiculously good at handling drama because I played online games with forums for years when I was younger and have worked in a lot of restaurants where people are constantly trying to grill you. Throw in a dash of good looks, some travelling and a sense of humour and your pretty much untrollable.

There are two general rules to forums that will help anyone survive, never lash out or attack people no matter what they say because arguing is pointless on the internet, wastes time and the best defense to people trolling you or making you look like a fool is to go along with it and make yourself look like even more of a fool than they can.

Some people think it's funny to make a bobble head of you? I would think it would be flattering, probably use it for advertising. Let's say you would take every meme picture people made of you and would distribute them yourself to advertise the product you are doing, free marketing! As long as you aren't going out of your way to screw people it doesn't really matter what people say.

Edit: PayCon is actually genius btw, because it has the inflation model that PayCoin would have needed to be successful in such that you have even higher inflation but you cannot buy it without knowing that it was built on opensource code without any promises. If you sell you cannot buy it back without paying more, if you own it and are Staking you may not even receive the highest rewards without optimizing your Staking and if you are doing that then you are also developing the Coin, securing it. There is a sweet spot for inflation, to have it moderately high enough that everyone will Stake it but not so high that one person can gain all the advantage or will continually drop the price over time because you want people that will trade it, create volume AND Stake as well. Calling something PayCon as a currency is the whole idea of decentralization in itself, like saying that you don't give a fuck about whether or not people see it as legitimate and it will be a success no matter what people think, got a problem with that? Simple, don't buy it because it's not pretending to be something it's not.

[kilo17]

Edit: PayCon is actually genius btw, because it has the inflation model that PayCoin would have needed to be successful in such that you have even higher inflation but you cannot buy it without knowing that it was built on opensource code without any promises. If you sell you cannot buy it back without paying more, if you own it and are Staking you may not even receive the highest rewards without optimizing your Staking and if you are doing that then you are also developing the Coin, securing it. There is a sweet spot for inflation, to have it moderately high enough that everyone will Stake it but not so high that one person can gain all the advantage or will continually drop the price over time because you want people that will trade it, create volume AND Stake as well. Calling something PayCon as a currency is the whole idea of decentralization in itself, like saying that you don't give a fuck about whether or not people see it as legitimate and it will be a success no matter what people think, got a problem with that? Simple, don't buy it because it's not pretending to be something it's not.

That is the best explanation of Paycoin, sorry I meant Paycon--shit i don't know what i meant - or even read--

[Crestington]

Edit: PayCon is actually genius btw, because it has the inflation model that PayCoin would have needed to be successful in such that you have even higher inflation but you cannot buy it without knowing that it was built on opensource code without any promises. If you sell you cannot buy it back without paying more, if you own it and are Staking you may not even receive the highest rewards without optimizing your Staking and if you are doing that then you are also developing the Coin, securing it. There is a sweet spot for inflation, to have it moderately high enough that everyone will Stake it but not so high that one person can gain all the advantage or will continually drop the price over time because you want people that will trade it, create volume AND Stake as well. Calling something PayCon as a currency is the whole idea of decentralization in itself, like saying that you don't give a fuck about whether or not people see it as legitimate and it will be a success no matter what people think, got a problem with that? Simple, don't buy it because it's not pretending to be something it's not.

That is the best explanation of Paycoin, sorry I meant Paycon--shit i don't know what i meant - or even read--

I hope maybe some of this may have helped you with your gems project and some insight as to how to navigate the Bitcointalk minefield. I think it was a good idea to hold off on the project until you could gather more information and rework the model, listen to peoples opinions and take on their ideas, there are many companies that pay people to find flaws. I was more using PayCon as an example but to extend on that a little more, it is also about the amount of costs in which the currency is used and sold to pay for infrastructure and it's marketcap, a high marketcap is not necessarily a good thing if it's concentrated among a small group of people. I think you may be able to go with the PayCoin model with separate inflation rates depending on wallets but that tends to be a risk in that it centralizes and causes drama/jealousy and when it's centralized and people need to give you their money in order for you to Stake for them to receive the highest payout, you are being classed as a security and that is a security risk.

For me I do not have that issue with PayCon because someone else made it, I've only made changes and everyone unanimously accepted those changes and bought my own Coins and Staked them like everyone else. If I would have received a benefit from increasing the inflation from 50% per year to 1000% per year then that would have also been offset by donating all my Coins and then buying back what I now own (about 2.6% as you can see on the richlist). Just don't put yourself in the situation where you can possibly see some kind of legal action for the things you do, and be as transparent as you can.