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Author Topic: try your chess skills for bitcoin  (Read 18579 times)
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July 10, 2015, 08:48:39 AM
 #41

Oh come on. An avid chess player could beat even the most powerful bot. I'm pretty sure that chess is one of the hardest board games to "exploit" with automation. [...]

Tell that to Kasparov - where have you been these last 20 years? Tongue

Chess is a perfect information game (that is, a game where both players have full knowledge of the complete state of the game), with relatively few movement options - perfect for computers to play, and win, against humans. Furthermore, their capabilities only improve with each passing year, alongside processing power and changes in programming techniques.

You're not wrong. The specific comment I was replying to was just me pointing out how silly the term "chess bot" was in my opinion. Sure, there is software that when combined with strong hardware (among other things mentioned later) is close to impossible to beat by humans. But an important aspect thing about them is that they have access to many opening books and tablebases. Stockfish for example (the highest ranking chess AI) even has a voluntary "botnet" of people donating processing power for it to learn.














 

 

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July 10, 2015, 12:52:37 PM
 #42

i am sure it will be not easy for some one to run a bot on this site. i wll keep capture each match and will analyisis players moves, and will make sign up system we hard so it will be not easy for a bot to log in in this site
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July 11, 2015, 06:48:40 AM
 #43

You're not wrong. The specific comment I was replying to was just me pointing out how silly the term "chess bot" was in my opinion. Sure, there is software that when combined with strong hardware (among other things mentioned later) is close to impossible to beat by humans. But an important aspect thing about them is that they have access to many opening books and tablebases. Stockfish for example (the highest ranking chess AI) even has a voluntary "botnet" of people donating processing power for it to learn.

Hmm, yes, the term "chess bot" might seem to be a bit misleading; although to be fair, it's still accurate: chess programs aren't endowing the computer with any greater understanding of how chess is played - it's still mostly an automation task, where the computer is using brute force to check all the possible outcomes in any given situation (access to typical opening and closing moves doesn't change this; they're just another tool).

But more importantly, as I previously alluded to, and as Revelation Machine (now that's an original nickname Tongue) pointed out as well, you don't really need strong hardware, or any other elaborate schemes, in order to have an already (close to) unbeatable computer opponent; a simple smart phone will do nowadays - in other words, anyone has access to them.





i am sure it will be not easy for some one to run a bot on this site. i wll keep capture each match and will analyisis players moves, and will make sign up system we hard so it will be not easy for a bot to log in in this site

I'm not sure if increasing the difficulty of signing up, and other such measures, is a good idea - they might end up making the site less useable, while not really stopping players from using their favorite chess program to cheat. But, perhaps analyzing player moves as you mentioned, maybe along the lines of what XinXan previously suggested, might help somewhat.

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July 11, 2015, 09:16:46 AM
 #44


*snip*

i am sure it will be not easy for some one to run a bot on this site. i wll keep capture each match and will analyisis players moves, and will make sign up system we hard so it will be not easy for a bot to log in in this site

I'm not sure if increasing the difficulty of signing up, and other such measures, is a good idea - they might end up making the site less useable, while not really stopping players from using their favorite chess program to cheat. But, perhaps analyzing player moves as you mentioned, maybe along the lines of what XinXan previously suggested, might help somewhat.


That's quite problematic too, to be honest. If it is not done in realtime, as in the analysis will be done after the match (as the "i will keep capture each match" suggests), withdrawals will be delayed. This will be bad for any site, especially if they are new.
Chess.com is a rather famous site. How do they do it ? They wait for reports from players of cheating. After a player is reported for cheating, their plays will be monitored and analysed. Not one game, over multiple games.
An online chess website that involves money can't afford to let a cheater poach their regular players, but they cannot also risk banning players that are just good at chess.
Also, banning won't mean much. On chess.com, there are very few tournaments with prize money, and those are open to only established players. Most of whom pay between 5-14$ a month for various tiers of membership. On the other hand, losing an account after breaking even wouldn't mean much. Boot up a proxy, start cheating again.

TL;DR: Stopping cheating is hard when there is no monetary incentive. When there is money involved though, it's pretty near impossible.

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July 11, 2015, 10:29:14 AM
 #45

play chess for bitcoins, better then betting
chess4coin.com

oh realy?i love chess, but I've never played for money/btc... i must try:)

edit: yupi!! i have account. very interesting idea;)

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July 11, 2015, 10:38:05 AM
 #46

Your site looks great!!! And congrats for coming up with a new idea ..... i love chess and i look forward to earn few bitcoin by playing chess on your site

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July 11, 2015, 10:59:09 AM
 #47

i like play chess i'm waiting your challenge. anyone try play the tournament?

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July 11, 2015, 12:13:07 PM
 #48

Cheating needs to be addressed.Everyone could use his external chess program to beat the other.
I think blitz games would be harder to exploit. We need blitz chess.
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July 11, 2015, 12:24:48 PM
 #49

Cheating needs to be addressed.Everyone could use his external chess program to beat the other.
I think blitz games would be harder to exploit. We need blitz chess.

I think it would really have to be Lightning Chess for people to have trouble using bots. Wink

But no, that wouldn't work either - not only would players still use some form of bot to copy moves directly to their chess engine (without the need for human intervention), but the computer program would still be better than the human players, despite the time constraints.

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July 11, 2015, 12:29:36 PM
 #50

this won't work. I think 90% of the participants will try to cheat using bots or an external chess game. this will always happen on any online chess games.

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July 11, 2015, 07:18:20 PM
 #51

this won't work. I think 90% of the participants will try to cheat using bots or an external chess game. this will always happen on any online chess games.

I agree with you and all others, chess sites are easy to exploit and players will surely cheat to earn bitcoin by using external chess game

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July 14, 2015, 01:48:48 AM
 #52

Cheating needs to be addressed.Everyone could use his external chess program to beat the other.
I think blitz games would be harder to exploit. We need blitz chess.

I think it would really have to be Lightning Chess for people to have trouble using bots. Wink

But no, that wouldn't work either - not only would players still use some form of bot to copy moves directly to their chess engine (without the need for human intervention), but the computer program would still be better than the human players, despite the time constraints.

Lightning chess would only work if the board size, piece dimensions, etc were randomized and changed often to avoid automatic screen capture by a computer.

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July 14, 2015, 02:45:21 AM
 #53

Lightning chess would only work if the board size, piece dimensions, etc were randomized and changed often to avoid automatic screen capture by a computer.

That's an interesting idea, but I still doubt it would work - off the top of my head: the board is still a grid with 8 x 8 squares, regardless of the actual size of each square, and their colors will still alternate in a predictable manner (even is the colors change somewhat); and the starting positions for all the pieces are still the same, even if a script would need to search around for the right place on the board (I imagine it would then not be too hard for such a program to hold the image of a piece in memory and then compare, maybe a number of border pixels on that image, to the pieces present in the board).

So, I assume this would make cheating by most players fairly hard1; but considering there is money involved, the site is going to get some dedicated cheaters in there, I'm sure. Also, if the developers take it too far (like, not using actual squares for each position in the grid), they risk turning the board into a piece of modern art, which may scare away a few players. Cheesy

1 - Well, if cheaters really want to use a bot for that. At some point, it might just be easier for them to, for example, share the prize money with someone else, and have them manually copy the moves to another device (say, a smartphone), while the first copies the result back to the site; or some other similar arrangement.

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July 14, 2015, 03:42:45 AM
 #54

I know how to play chess but I don't think it's really worth the time for chess.  Not for me anyways.  I prefer in-person games to see the thoughts on other players faces.  Man, I thought poker was boring.  I can just imagine an online chess game.  The timers would be interesting.  People could really cheat and get computer help on best moves but maybe a strict timer system would curtail the cheating but then also limit the game play.  yeah, just don't see it for me.


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July 14, 2015, 06:02:04 AM
 #55

i am sure it will be not easy for some one to run a bot on this site. i wll keep capture each match and will analyisis players moves, and will make sign up system we hard so it will be not easy for a bot to log in in this site

Thats fine, but what about a passive bot where a player is doing the actually moves, but a bot is deciding them?  It would be virtually undetectable.

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July 14, 2015, 07:35:53 AM
 #56

i am sure it will be not easy for some one to run a bot on this site. i wll keep capture each match and will analyisis players moves, and will make sign up system we hard so it will be not easy for a bot to log in in this site

Actually implenting something as such wouldn't be too difficult. There is already an chess algo which is used to beat maybe gambling websites.

But it depends how much time someone has.

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July 14, 2015, 08:25:15 AM
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Your starting page needs a major overhaul. It seems as if you have bought a premade layout and haven't edited the default info on it.

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July 14, 2015, 10:22:36 AM
 #58

this won't work. I think 90% of the participants will try to cheat using bots or an external chess game. this will always happen on any online chess games.

I agree with you and all others, chess sites are easy to exploit and players will surely cheat to earn bitcoin by using external chess game

This discussion made me think of the challenges that had kasparov against deep Blue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJarxpYyoFI

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July 14, 2015, 12:14:59 PM
 #59

i am sure it will be not easy for some one to run a bot on this site. i wll keep capture each match and will analyisis players moves, and will make sign up system we hard so it will be not easy for a bot to log in in this site

Thats fine, but what about a passive bot where a player is doing the actually moves, but a bot is deciding them?  It would be virtually undetectable.

What about you set your windows chess no the maximum level and use the moves it uses against you to play vs others.  I guess that doesn't help you if there are questions relating to chess strategy but it does make you very hard to beat.
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July 14, 2015, 12:21:53 PM
 #60

I was thinking the same and yet, even for othello there would be the same problem, there is an app that tells you which is the best move to do and which is ev- so yeah... it would be still a nice challenge... add Othello mate.

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