[GLBSE] Violating its TOS and Possible Laws depending on country of Origin

[flower1024]

...

Alberto agreed to have his information released in the event of him scamming or running off with the funds invested when he verified, I would not have made the information public otherwise.
...

You should post the agreement to having his personal information released then no one could question you releasing the documents.

releasing personal info...i dont see ANY sense in it.

give it to the police: but never to a public forum...

imagine you are ill, get to a hospital... and an angry mob burned down your house

NO THANKS

[stochastic]

...

Alberto agreed to have his information released in the event of him scamming or running off with the funds invested when he verified, I would not have made the information public otherwise.
...

You should post the agreement to having his personal information released then no one could question you releasing the documents.

releasing personal info...i dont see ANY sense in it.

give it to the police: but never to a public forum...

imagine you are ill, get to a hospital... and an angry mob burned down your house

NO THANKS

Personal info was already released.  I was referring to releasing the agreement saying when and how it is OK.

[Bitcoin Oz]

He is already marked as a scammer as bitscalper. In that sense yes he is a "scammer".

[guruvan]

Wow.

Why anyone would give another bitcoiner his ID is beyond me., The odds are one or the other is a scammer. You're either a scammer giving your ID up, or giving your ID to a scammer.

Nah. S'ok. I like nefario, but I trust him (and theymos) with private data about as far as I can throw a truck. Neither on has really shown that they're particularly trustworthy with that data. (this is why I no longer accept forum "personal" message -- private, my ass)

Without having Nefario & Theymos' personal information on one's own file, I'm not sure how anyone can trust them enough to give up his or her own personal info.  Do you know who these guys are? Enough to sue them? If not, then why on earth would you give information to them such that they could or their customers could sue you.

Nefario & Theymos, please now provide
1) Complete list of all shareholders of GLBSE
2) List of Board of Directors of GLBSE WITH ALL PERSONAL DATA requested by GLBSE for issuers,m including copies of ID
3) Articles of Incorporation for GLBSE
4) Corporate by-laws for GLBSE

Without the above, GLBSE is no more trustworthy than any other unverified lister on it and has NO business releasing personal data.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Wow.

Why anyone would give another bitcoiner his ID is beyond me., The odds are one or the other is a scammer. You're either a scammer giving your ID up, or giving your ID to a scammer.

Nah. S'ok. I like nefario, but I trust him (and theymos) with private data about as far as I can throw a truck. Neither on has really shown that they're particularly trustworthy with that data. (this is why I no longer accept forum "personal" message -- private, my ass)

Without having Nefario & Theymos' personal information on one's own file, I'm not sure how anyone can trust them enough to give up his or her own personal info.  Do you know who these guys are? Enough to sue them? If not, then why on earth would you give information to them such that they could or their customers could sue you.

Nefario & Theymos, please now provide
1) Complete list of all shareholders of GLBSE
2) List of Board of Directors of GLBSE WITH ALL PERSONAL DATA requested by GLBSE for issuers,m including copies of ID
3) Articles of Incorporation for GLBSE
4) Corporate by-laws for GLBSE

Without the above, GLBSE is no more trustworthy than any other unverified lister on it and has NO business releasing personal data.

Only if you sign an NDA first

GLBSE isnt a legal entity yet. If/when that changes youll be able to find such infos like any other registered company. But then the shareholders will be protected from personal lawsuits.

[Nefario]

Wow.

Why anyone would give another bitcoiner his ID is beyond me., The odds are one or the other is a scammer. You're either a scammer giving your ID up, or giving your ID to a scammer.

Nah. S'ok. I like nefario, but I trust him (and theymos) with private data about as far as I can throw a truck. Neither on has really shown that they're particularly trustworthy with that data. (this is why I no longer accept forum "personal" message -- private, my ass)

Without having Nefario & Theymos' personal information on one's own file, I'm not sure how anyone can trust them enough to give up his or her own personal info.  Do you know who these guys are? Enough to sue them? If not, then why on earth would you give information to them such that they could or their customers could sue you.

Nefario & Theymos, please now provide
1) Complete list of all shareholders of GLBSE
2) List of Board of Directors of GLBSE WITH ALL PERSONAL DATA requested by GLBSE for issuers,m including copies of ID
3) Articles of Incorporation for GLBSE
4) Corporate by-laws for GLBSE

Without the above, GLBSE is no more trustworthy than any other unverified lister on it and has NO business releasing personal data.

Only if you sign an NDA first

GLBSE isnt a legal entity yet. If/when that changes youll be able to find such infos like any other registered company. But then the shareholders will be protected from personal lawsuits.

Once GLBSE registers I'm sure we can sue for data and find out all shareholders and who they are. I have dox on many of them already but not all.

I find this funny, "I won't give my ID to an unregistered business, but as soon as they register I'm going to sue for their ID's".

This being a UK based company you can only use the DataProtection act 1998 (I think this is the relevant legislation), this entitles you to get a copy of all the data we would hold on you (no one else), but you wouldn't even need to sue for that, just make a request and pay a processing fee. It's pretty standard.

[reeses]

Wow.

Why anyone would give another bitcoiner his ID is beyond me., The odds are one or the other is a scammer. You're either a scammer giving your ID up, or giving your ID to a scammer.

Nah. S'ok. I like nefario, but I trust him (and theymos) with private data about as far as I can throw a truck. Neither on has really shown that they're particularly trustworthy with that data. (this is why I no longer accept forum "personal" message -- private, my ass)

Without having Nefario & Theymos' personal information on one's own file, I'm not sure how anyone can trust them enough to give up his or her own personal info.  Do you know who these guys are? Enough to sue them? If not, then why on earth would you give information to them such that they could or their customers could sue you.

Nefario & Theymos, please now provide
1) Complete list of all shareholders of GLBSE
2) List of Board of Directors of GLBSE WITH ALL PERSONAL DATA requested by GLBSE for issuers,m including copies of ID
3) Articles of Incorporation for GLBSE
4) Corporate by-laws for GLBSE

Without the above, GLBSE is no more trustworthy than any other unverified lister on it and has NO business releasing personal data.

I hear this.  Let me attempt to be succinct (lazy)

• When I want more "trust" in a contract with someone, we establish a side channel.  Either WoT or LinkedIn.  If the person has a real world identity with references, professional contacts, and an established history, the risk of fraud is reduced.  I can usually find out enough information that I have recourse in the case that things go sideways without a passport scan.
• Nefario and theymos hide behind aliases.  Nefario's implies, well, nefarious intent.  He claims his id is well known but it is not associated with each of his posts.
• As you say, theymos has admitted to reading PMs.  Encrypt any messages there and refer to email or other extra-forum communications channels.
• Nefario claims holdings of $1.5m or so on his exchange.  Those entrusting these funds to him should clamor for a greater level of identification, such as registration as a corporation or the equivalent in his jurisdiction.  While it should not be necessary to provide us with a scan of his passport, a traceable correlation identifier should be attached to his business.  I do not believe GLBSE is registered or incorporated, but I could be wrong.
• His exchange is in fact subject to US law, due to being hosted in the US, implicitly identified as a US organization due to the use of the .com TLD instead of co.uk or other domains, and solicitation of business from people in the US.

But, as is said, this is only if they want to mitigate the lack of trust they have earned when they operate without thought for short- or long-term consequences.  I'm not really sure that's a hole from which they can extract themselves.

[DeathAndTaxes]

You mean once you register as a corporation and sell stocks in yourself you wont have to list stock holders publicly? It is so different than in the USA... Anyway I am highly looking forward to the upcoming sale of the GLBSE stock and look forward to reading the contract.

1) Where do you get this mistaken idea that owners of a privately held corporation are public knowledge?
2) Why would the "contract" (corporate bylaws) of a privately held corporation be public knowledge?

Neither of those are true in the US, unless you mean a "US" other than these United States.

[stochastic]

You mean once you register as a corporation and sell stocks in yourself you wont have to list stock holders publicly? It is so different than in the USA... Anyway I am highly looking forward to the upcoming sale of the GLBSE stock and look forward to reading the contract.

1) Where do you get this mistaken idea that owners of a privately held corporation are public knowledge?
2) Why would the "contract" (corporate bylaws) of a privately held corporation be public knowledge?

Neither of those are true in the US, unless you mean a "US" other than these United States.

Actually people can get #1 pretty easily in the US.  Almost all states except for Nevada, New Mexico and Wyoming have confidential owners of LLCs, meaning it won't be released to the public unless ordered to do so by the judicial branch.  I am not sure about corporations, but the laws for incorporating are usually more strigent as corporations are technically are held to greater accountability than LLCs.  For example, in Texas the owners of LLCs a person can get corporate officer and director information.  Director and ownership information has to be filled every year for the franchise tax.  Usually you just send a request to the secretary of state or the comptroller for whichever state it is incorporated.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Wow.

Why anyone would give another bitcoiner his ID is beyond me., The odds are one or the other is a scammer. You're either a scammer giving your ID up, or giving your ID to a scammer.

Nah. S'ok. I like nefario, but I trust him (and theymos) with private data about as far as I can throw a truck. Neither on has really shown that they're particularly trustworthy with that data. (this is why I no longer accept forum "personal" message -- private, my ass)

Without having Nefario & Theymos' personal information on one's own file, I'm not sure how anyone can trust them enough to give up his or her own personal info.  Do you know who these guys are? Enough to sue them? If not, then why on earth would you give information to them such that they could or their customers could sue you.

Nefario & Theymos, please now provide
1) Complete list of all shareholders of GLBSE
2) List of Board of Directors of GLBSE WITH ALL PERSONAL DATA requested by GLBSE for issuers,m including copies of ID
3) Articles of Incorporation for GLBSE
4) Corporate by-laws for GLBSE

Without the above, GLBSE is no more trustworthy than any other unverified lister on it and has NO business releasing personal data.

Only if you sign an NDA first

GLBSE isnt a legal entity yet. If/when that changes youll be able to find such infos like any other registered company. But then the shareholders will be protected from personal lawsuits.

Once GLBSE registers I'm sure we can sue for data and find out all shareholders and who they are. I have dox on many of them already but not all.

 
And what is the point of that ? What do you intend to do with this "dox"

[DeathAndTaxes]

You mean once you register as a corporation and sell stocks in yourself you wont have to list stock holders publicly? It is so different than in the USA... Anyway I am highly looking forward to the upcoming sale of the GLBSE stock and look forward to reading the contract.

1) Where do you get this mistaken idea that owners of a privately held corporation are public knowledge?
2) Why would the "contract" (corporate bylaws) of a privately held corporation be public knowledge?

Neither of those are true in the US, unless you mean a "US" other than these United States.

Actually people can get #1 pretty easily in the US.  Almost all states except for Nevada, New Mexico and Wyoming have confidential owners of LLCs, meaning it won't be released to the public unless ordered to do so by the judicial branch.  I am not sure about corporations, but the laws for incorporating are usually more strigent as corporations are technically are held to greater accountability than LLCs.  For example, in Texas the owners of LLCs a person can get corporate officer and director information.  Director and ownership information has to be filled every year for the franchise tax.  Usually you just send a request to the secretary of state or the comptroller for whichever state it is incorporated.

Maybe there is a typo in there.  You correct me and say #1 is easy and then go on to post how owner info is confidential and won't be released without a court order, which would imply #1 is anything but easy.  So which is it "easy" or requires a court order?  In most states unless you can show cause you aren't getting owner info.  If a person has a dispute with the corporation or it is employees the dispute is with the corporation/LLC not the owners.  Only in the event there is need to pierce the corporate veil does the owner's interest need to be known.  The post I responded to amounted to little more than a fishing expedition.  In most (all?) states, the state isn't going to release owner information simply because a third party "wants to know".

[stochastic]

You mean once you register as a corporation and sell stocks in yourself you wont have to list stock holders publicly? It is so different than in the USA... Anyway I am highly looking forward to the upcoming sale of the GLBSE stock and look forward to reading the contract.

1) Where do you get this mistaken idea that owners of a privately held corporation are public knowledge?
2) Why would the "contract" (corporate bylaws) of a privately held corporation be public knowledge?

Neither of those are true in the US, unless you mean a "US" other than these United States.

Actually people can get #1 pretty easily in the US.  Almost all Only states except for Nevada, New Mexico and Wyoming have confidential owners of LLCs, meaning it won't be released to the public unless ordered to do so by the judicial branch.  I am not sure about corporations, but the laws for incorporating are usually more strigent as corporations are technically are held to greater accountability than LLCs.  For example, in Texas the owners of LLCs a person can get corporate officer and director information.  Director and ownership information has to be filled every year for the franchise tax.  Usually you just send a request to the secretary of state or the comptroller for whichever state it is incorporated.

Maybe there is a typo in there.  You correct me and say #1 is easy and then go on to post how owner info is confidential and won't be released without a court order, which would imply #1 is anything but easy.  So which is it "easy" or requires a court order?  In most states unless you can show cause you aren't getting owner info.  If a person has a dispute with the corporation or it is employees the dispute is with the corporation/LLC not the owners.  Only in the event there is need to pierce the corporate veil does the owner's interest need to be known.  The post I responded to amounted to little more than a fishing expedition.  In most (all?) states, the state isn't going to release owner information simply because a third party "wants to know".

Yes you are right, instead of "Almost all states except for NV, NM, and WY", it is "only NV, NM and WY"  that have confidential information.  In the rest of the states all that is needed is a letter to the comptroller or secretary of state for their yearly filings to get owner information.

[stochastic]

You mean once you register as a corporation and sell stocks in yourself you wont have to list stock holders publicly? It is so different than in the USA... Anyway I am highly looking forward to the upcoming sale of the GLBSE stock and look forward to reading the contract.

1) Where do you get this mistaken idea that owners of a privately held corporation are public knowledge?
2) Why would the "contract" (corporate bylaws) of a privately held corporation be public knowledge?

Neither of those are true in the US, unless you mean a "US" other than these United States.

Actually people can get #1 pretty easily in the US.  Almost all Only states except for Nevada, New Mexico and Wyoming have confidential owners of LLCs, meaning it won't be released to the public unless ordered to do so by the judicial branch.  I am not sure about corporations, but the laws for incorporating are usually more strigent as corporations are technically are held to greater accountability than LLCs.  For example, in Texas the owners of LLCs a person can get corporate officer and director information.  Director and ownership information has to be filled every year for the franchise tax.  Usually you just send a request to the secretary of state or the comptroller for whichever state it is incorporated.

Maybe there is a typo in there.  You correct me and say #1 is easy and then go on to post how owner info is confidential and won't be released without a court order, which would imply #1 is anything but easy.  So which is it "easy" or requires a court order?  In most states unless you can show cause you aren't getting owner info.  If a person has a dispute with the corporation or it is employees the dispute is with the corporation/LLC not the owners.  Only in the event there is need to pierce the corporate veil does the owner's interest need to be known.  The post I responded to amounted to little more than a fishing expedition.  In most (all?) states, the state isn't going to release owner information simply because a third party "wants to know".

Yes you are right, instead of "Almost all states except for NV, NM, and WY", it is "only NV, NM and WY"  that have confidential information.  In the rest of the states all that is needed is a letter to the comptroller or secretary of state for their yearly filings to get owner information.

When I said pretty easy I meant doable with a few letters from a lawyer. I did not mean google it... I thought this was pretty standard information. I would have thought DandT would have known this.

I don't know about Britain but for Texas you can just email the comptroller.  They reply back to me the next day.  No need for a lawyer.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Well you are missing at least a half dozen states from your list.  In VA for example no owners are even listed with the state corporation commission.  Directors and officers are but members (LLC) and shareholders (corp) are not.  There is nothing the state could give you even if they wanted to.  Tell you what you get me a list of owners of Tangible Cryptography LLC and I will pay you 5,000% of your costs.  

Still I somewhat doubt your assertion of getting complete owner info from the state of TX as it contradicts what their site indicates:

http://www.sos.state.tx.us/corp/managementinfofaqs.shtml#mgmt7

How can I find the ownership information for a business entity?

Corporations:

The secretary of state does not maintain any information on a corporation’s shareholders, with the limited exception of a close corporation; however, we do maintain records of an entity's registered agent and registered office address.

Limited Liability Companies:

The secretary of state does not maintain any information on the ownership of a LLC. The secretary of state has information on the initial members of a member-managed LLC. We also maintain records of an entity's registered agent and registered office address.

Also looked at the filing docs for registering a LLC or Corp in TX.  They don't even ask ownership information so how exactly did the state give you something they don't even keep records of?

[stochastic]

Well you are missing at least a half dozen states from your list.  In VA for example no owners are even listed with the state corporation commission.  Directors and officers are but members (LLC) and shareholders (corp) are not.  There is nothing the state could give you even if they wanted to.  Tell you what you get me a list of owners of Tangible Cryptography LLC and I will pay you 5,000% of your costs.

Is this one of those Matthew bets?  How to verify a list of owners of Tangible Cryptography LLC when they don't want to release the information.  "Oh sorry, that is not the full list, you missed one.  No, you can't see the full list, that is confidential."

Still I somewhat doubt your assertion of getting complete owner info from the state of TX as it contradicts what their site indicates:

http://www.sos.state.tx.us/corp/managementinfofaqs.shtml#mgmt7

How can I find the ownership information for a business entity?

Corporations:

The secretary of state does not maintain any information on a corporation’s shareholders, with the limited exception of a close corporation; however, we do maintain records of an entity's registered agent and registered office address.

Limited Liability Companies:

The secretary of state does not maintain any information on the ownership of a LLC. The secretary of state has information on the initial members of a member-managed LLC. We also maintain records of an entity's registered agent and registered office address.

Also looked at the filing docs for registering a LLC or Corp in TX.  They don't even ask ownership information so how exactly did the state give you something they don't even keep records of?

In Texas people must file a yearly franchise tax report, even if no income was made and that report must list the corporate officer and managing director.  They don't file this with the Secretary of State, they file this will the Comptroller of Public Accounts.

When filling out the Franchise report (Texas Franchise Tax Report or Public Information Report) there is Section A called:  Name, title and mailing address of each officer, director or member.

"Officer, director and member information is reported as of the date a Public Information Report is completed. The information is updated annually as part of the franchise tax report. There is no requirement or procedure for supplementing the information as officers, directors, or members change throughout the year"

Then section B:

"Enter the information required for each corporation or LLC, if any, in which this entity owns an interest of 10 percent or more."

Then section C:

"Enter the information required for each corporation or LLC, if any, that owns an interest of 10 percent or more in this entity or limited liability company."

The discrepancy is because the Secretary of State is different than the Comptroller of Public accounts where the Franchise tax is sent.  A Comptroller collects taxes, the Secretary of State just registers businesses.  I can tell you one thing.  Any state where you have to put down a name when organizing the partnership with the government is public in some way, either by legal or illegal means.

[DeathAndTaxes]

In Texas people must file a yearly franchise tax report, even if no income was made and that report must list the corporate officer and managing director.  They don't file this with the Secretary of State, they file this will the Comptroller of Public Accounts.

When filling out the Franchise report (Texas Franchise Tax Report or Public Information Report) there is Section A called:  Name, title and mailing address of each officer, director or member.

You said owners.  Directors & officers aren't owners (although a director/officer can certainly also be an owner).  Now it does look like Texas doesn't provide as much privacy for LLC  members as they do shareholders of a Corporation. Pretty strange Texas would require disclosure of members of an LLC but not shareholders of a corporation.  Kinda makes LLC a second class citizen in TX IMHO.  Looks like members only need to be disclosed if the LLC is member managed.

[stochastic]

In Texas people must file a yearly franchise tax report, even if no income was made and that report must list the corporate officer and managing director.  They don't file this with the Secretary of State, they file this will the Comptroller of Public Accounts.

When filling out the Franchise report (Texas Franchise Tax Report or Public Information Report) there is Section A called:  Name, title and mailing address of each officer, director or member.

You said owners.  Directors & officers aren't owners (although a director/officer can certainly also be an owner).  Now it does look like Texas doesn't provide as much privacy for LLC  members as they do shareholders of a Corporation. Pretty strange Texas would require disclosure of members of an LLC but not shareholders of a corporation.  Kinda makes LLC a second class citizen in TX IMHO.  Looks like members only need to be disclosed if the LLC is member managed.

Let me bold it for you so you can read it.

Officer, director and member information is reported as of the date a Public Information Report is completed. The information is updated annually as part of the franchise tax report. There is no requirement or procedure for supplementing the information as officers, directors, or members change throughout the year

A member is an owner in the language of limited liability companies.  From the IRS website

Owners of an LLC are called members. Since most states do not restrict ownership, members may include individuals, corporations, other LLCs and foreign entities. There is no maximum number of members. Most states also permit “single member” LLCs, those having only one owner.

Also, in Virginia according to the legal code 13.1-1028 Section A

A current list of the full name and last known business address of each member, in alphabetical order;

A. Each limited liability company shall keep at its principal office the following:

1. A current list of the full name and last known business address of each member, in alphabetical order;

2. A copy of the articles of organization and the certificate of organization, and all articles of amendment and certificates of amendment thereto

The information may not be possible to get from the Secretary of the Commonwealth, but it is possible to subpoena the information.

What I am trying to say, in America it is not that hard to get member information.  Some states the member information needs to be updated yearly with some government agency.  In other states they do not require that information, but instead require those records to be available at a principle place of business for subpoena.  Other states do not require a certain location that membership information is kept, but they better have it in case it is subpoenaed.  A private investigator or attorney can do any of these very quickly.  If someone wants to stay anonymous, then don't register a business with the government.

[MPOE-PR]

Not sure what the fuss is all about in this particular case.

Nefario stated that Alberto had agreed, when he provided the ID documents, that

The fuss is that it's not Alberto who stated that Alberto has agreed.

[DeathAndTaxes]

stochastic,

Please read the instructions for the public report filing in TX.  

http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/taxforms/05-396.pdf

Page 11

Section A: Report the name, title and mailing address of
each officer and director of the corporation, LLC or financial
institution as of the date the report is filed. If ALL the
preprinted information in Section A is correct, blacken the
circle located below the mailing address on the form.
Otherwise, mark through any incorrect information and type
or print the correct information next to the incorrect item or,
if Section A is blank, complete Section A.
Domestic profit corporations and domestic professional
corporations must list all officers, which must include the
president and secretary, and all directors. One person may
hold all offices. Domestic non-profit corporations must list all
officers. Different persons must hold the offices of president
and secretary. There is a minimum of three directors. Domestic
limited liability companies must list all managers and, if the
company is member-managed, list all members. All officers, if
any, must be listed. Non-Texas entities must list all officers
and directors that are required by the laws of the state or
country of incorporation or organization.

Not sure what your rebutal was.  

You do understand that LLC are broken into two structure types.
* Manager managed (where members elect a manager much like shareholders elect officers in a corporation)
* Member managed (where all members have executive authority much like a partnership).

I clearly said that only member-managed LLC require reporting the members, which is a correct statement. What exactly were you trying to rebut?

Even in TX (your "it is public records" example state):
In a manager managed LLC no members information is reported.  
In a coproration no shareholder information is reported.  

So how exactly do you get the owner info with a quick phonecall or email?
How do you get what the state doesn't even have?

As for "legal code 13.1-1028 Section A" once again you only have part of the answer (which seems to be your continually problem):

Each limited liability company shall keep at its principal office the following

The company (not the state) needs to keep those records.   So how do you get confidential company information "easily" from "public records" (your two false claims) when the state doesn't even have the info to give you.

"The information may not be possible to get from the Secretary of the Commonwealth, but it is possible to subpoena the information.

When did I say it was IMPOSSIBLE under any possible circumstances to ever obtain information on company owners?  Way to move the goal post.  Your claims were 1) that it is public information and 2) that it is easy to obtain.  A subpoena isn't "easy" and there is no legal authority to demand that information without cause.   Go ahead subpoena that information and watch it get quashed.  A judge "could" compel a company to divulge that information.   However no judge is going to grant a court order simply because someone on the internets wants to know.   There has to be a compelling reason (like piercing the corporate veil, instances of securities fraud, embezzlement, etc).  

So once again not sure what your point was?  I feel we have gone round in circles and your new position is my original position.

I said (paraphrased):
* owner information isn't publicly available
* it will require a court order
* you will need to show the court why you should have that private information

You said (paraphrased)
* owner info is publicly available -
* you just need to ask the state.
* it is easy to get

 So once again what was your point?

[RandomQ]

TOS has been updated, I'm not a Spelling Nazi by any means way shape or form.
I'm lucky i can read the English language lol, but i think you might wanna fire you spell check software.