If mining BTC isn't profitable like people say -- how are OTHER people doing it?

[ProfessionalGoogler]

Investing in solar panels? Creating the chips themself?

Why even buy a btc miner if you could actually be losing money -- breaking even I can KINDA understand.. But even then you start to lose money very soon. (unless BTC pops up of course)

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[Amph]

for some is profitable this is obvious, especially for big farm because they have good contract which make their bills very cheap, usually you should look at 0.05 per KW/h to have a good profit, and zero electricity is something abusive..

the only strategy that may work for a random miners with a slightly bad electricity like 0.09 or something, it's selling your gear at some point, before the roi so you can achieve it early and do some profit, than re-buy again and keep the cycle active

[hedgy73]

Investing in solar panels? Creating the chips themself?

Why even buy a btc miner if you could actually be losing money -- breaking even I can KINDA understand.. But even then you start to lose money very soon. (unless BTC pops up of course)

The most important aspect to be profitable is cheap electricity and bitcoin price.

Here in the UK for example standard home electricity is about $0.2 - $0.25 kw/h which makes even the Antminer S5 (one of the most efficient miners on the market) unprofitable to run with bitcoin at current price.

In some parts of the world electricity can be as cheap as -$0.05 kw/h in which case its still profitable.

EDIT: You obviously have to factor hardware cost into the equation too.

[Xialla]

they had direct contact to HW manufacturers, receiving discounts because of bulk orders and mainly bloody cheap electricity and space for rent.

in Europe is almost impossible to start something similar these days legally (paying for electricity), because of this, majority of big operations are in China/US. and even if mining will not be profitable, they can't stop it simply as some small miner with few boxes can..

[notlist3d]

It can be done a lot of the profitable ones are ones who have believed in it and have been buying gear for a while.  All the gear we bought we got a good amount more mining out of it then we thought.  The summer has been low difficulty changes and with BTC on the rise, it's actually quite a good time for miners.

If just starting all going to come down to 2 main things.  One is your electricity price, this can make or break you.  Second is if you have a big import tax/vat this also can just kill some ROI.

But yes it still can be done by what I consider hobby miners.

[jonnybravo0311]

As has been stated, your power costs are the key factor to consider when thinking about purchasing mining hardware.  Even at $0.10 per kWh, you're going to struggle to find a profit (an S5 would expect to net you about $1.80 a day currently).

The ones who make it are the ones who've got access to lots of very cheap power, buy bulk hardware direct from the manufacturer at a discount, pay very little for space, etc.  In other words, the farms.

Home and hobby miners are squeezed out more and more.  For example, last week you could get an S5 directly from Bitmain for about $375 plus shipping.  Today, that same S5 will cost you $400 plus shipping.  If we assume the numbers I used above remain constant (which they don't), that new S5 would take you 222 days of mining to pay for itself.

[philipma1957]

power cost = king

3 cent power = s-3's make money


s-3's are cheap.

here are my 4 s-3's  using 3 cent power

so I get about 1750gh-1800gh  with 1400 watts but at 3 cents been doing it for 1 year.

so scale it for 100 s-3's at 3 cents or 1000 s-3's at 3 cents

My power max is about 1500 or 1600 watts so I am done adding gear here.

[ProfessionalGoogler]

power cost = king

3 cent power = s-3's make money


s-3's are cheap.

here are my 4 s-3's  using 3 cent power

so I get about 1750gh-1800gh  with 1400 watts but at 3 cents been doing it for 1 year.

so scale it for 100 s-3's at 3 cents or 1000 s-3's at 3 cents

My power max is about 1500 or 1600 watts so I am done adding gear here.

How are you getting this "3 cent power"? lol 

[philipma1957]

power cost = king

3 cent power = s-3's make money


s-3's are cheap.

here are my 4 s-3's  using 3 cent power

so I get about 1750gh-1800gh  with 1400 watts but at 3 cents been doing it for 1 year.

so scale it for 100 s-3's at 3 cents or 1000 s-3's at 3 cents

My power max is about 1500 or 1600 watts so I am done adding gear here.

How are you getting this "3 cent power"? lol 

it is at my friend's office  he rents ¼ of a floor and pays 1/5  the power bill.  For 10 years he used very little power and lost out on the power splitting deal. For the last 12 months he has made back some of those losses on the power bill.   The bill was 500 or so with him paying 100  now the bill is  600 or so with him paying 120

 the extra 100 is the miners   so we pay 20 and get an 80 dollar subsidy.

 two other benefits :
he does not control the heat
the office is cold in the winter  the miners warm it

 he no longer uses  this heater in the winter.

[spazzdla]

As it has been suggested it is a great heater in the winter, ESPCIALLY the S1 that guy pours out heat.




I mine slightly negative but I like to decentrlized mining and support  the security of the chain.. hey every giga hash counts!




U3, you can grab one for like $60 off kijiji, power draw is negligible mind you so is the profits but you are mining and adding more security to the network.

[Amph]

As it has been suggested it is a great heater in the winter, ESPCIALLY the S1 that guy pours out heat.




I mine slightly negative but I like to decentrlized mining and support  the security of the chain.. hey every giga hash counts!




U3, you can grab one for like $60 off kijiji, power draw is negligible mind you so is the profits but you are mining and adding more security to the network.

isn't better to support the network with a full node? at least you won't go in negative, well if you are rich, i don't think you care about a small loss 

[notlist3d]

As it has been suggested it is a great heater in the winter, ESPCIALLY the S1 that guy pours out heat.




I mine slightly negative but I like to decentrlized mining and support  the security of the chain.. hey every giga hash counts!




U3, you can grab one for like $60 off kijiji, power draw is negligible mind you so is the profits but you are mining and adding more security to the network.

isn't better to support the network with a full node? at least you won't go in negative, well if you are rich, i don't think you care about a small loss 

I support the network and want it to be safe.  But when I go negative on miner's I sell them and get more efficient gear.   

I really like ROI .  I will keep doing support with ROI as long as I can.  The summer has been good in my mind for miners.

[Bitsaurus]

The "people" mining are not people but rather companies who typically are the same ones selling you miners.  They charge you double so they can get their hardware for free 

[notlist3d]

The "people" mining are not people but rather companies who typically are the same ones selling you miners.  They charge you double so they can get their hardware for free 

Mining is still  profitable with right conditions.  Electricity price is key.  And no import tax/vat helps.  Sadly those thing keep SOME from mining.

Others that have right condition the difficulty only rising in little bits.  BTC went up some in price.  Really a heck of a lot better then most of us thought it would be.  There is profit to be made.   But takes right conditions.

[navigator]

People seem to forget you can't just scale up without spending way more money. Sure the farms might get bulk discounts, but a home miner running a single miner is much easier to manage and requires no extras that a farm would need. Farms need a place to put the miners, shelves, power equipment, wiring, networking, breakers, list goes on and on. A home miner with low power cost is going to have a higher profit margin than a large farm. A home miner with the same miners as a farm may be able to run much longer than the farm. The problem right now for home miners is a lack of choice of ready available miners and the longer initial break even point. Mining for quick profits is unlikely to happen again. You may come across short events like the paycoin fiasco where lots of us made extra coin for a few days, but I doubt there will ever be another large spike in bitcoin price that isn't followed by difficulty increasing rapidly to compensate. Mining will always trend towards barely profitable.

[spazzdla]

As it has been suggested it is a great heater in the winter, ESPCIALLY the S1 that guy pours out heat.




I mine slightly negative but I like to decentrlized mining and support  the security of the chain.. hey every giga hash counts!




U3, you can grab one for like $60 off kijiji, power draw is negligible mind you so is the profits but you are mining and adding more security to the network.

isn't better to support the network with a full node? at least you won't go in negative, well if you are rich, i don't think you care about a small loss 

I am running a full node as well .  I dunno about "rich" but I do okay.

[notlist3d]

Investing in solar panels? Creating the chips themself?

Why even buy a btc miner if you could actually be losing money -- breaking even I can KINDA understand.. But even then you start to lose money very soon. (unless BTC pops up of course)

Well I for one find mining to be a lot of fun and it gives me an indepth look into it and also gave me an extra passion into investing and electricity. Mining even if you lose money via only mining you can still either sell the hardware, solo mine or use it as a heater. Miners are neat!

And with right conditions you really can ROI.  So many say ROI is not possible, but it's not one size fits all.

And as far as solar... look for cheap electricity don't spend a ton on solar/wind energy.

[QuintLeo]

At this point, ROI is mostly about what your electric costs are. Forget it at 15 cents/KWh, very iffy at 10, fairly easy at 5.

 Cost of the miner vs. performance is also a factor, as is the probability of the miner LIVING long enough to ROI (Titans are very efficient, but their reliability is NOT GOOD. See also Gridseed blades and their poorly designed VERY marginal power conversion design.).

 Even at 15c/KWh, a SP20E or a S5 are technically PROFITABLE. You're just not going to profit ENOUGH to pay back the cost of buying the unit AND needfull power supply/supplies, unless the price of Bitcoin goes up faster than the difficulty does for YEARS.


 When you factor in the cost and how long a typical windmill/solar panel lasts, AND needed auxillary equipment, AND needed battery capasity, solar and wind are NOT competative with average power costs from the utility company in most of the 1'st and 2'nd world countries. 3'd world or some remote areas, they become practical because (1) there IS no reliable power and/or (2) power is WAY expensive and/or (3) the cost of installing the power LINES is way more expensive than the cost of the panels/windmill.

 You also have to be carefull and do your research into the companies - just because a company is large doesn't mean it made GOOD RELIABLE equipment (can anyone else out there say Clipper Windpower, for one of the better known failures (technically in process, they still exist sorta) in the Wind Power field).

[jmumich]

Aside from electricity costs, timing is very important. A home miner with reasonable electricity costs that bought S5s or SP20s in Jan. 2015 has done very well, as the resale value of those miners has actually increased since then, while they've made decent revenue over cost.

Someone that bought the three SP20 deal for $1195 with free shipping, for example, can probably get that much back even on eBay after fees right now, and will have essentially had free equipment to run for six months. Of course, that is obvious in hindsight.

The best thing to do is closely watch difficulty changes, stay up to date on what manufacturers are up to, and monitor hashrate for new, unannounced farms that may be popping up (or new hardware being tested - it's pretty easy to spot when Bitmain started running their S5s if you study it close enough).

Basically, mining can be profitable. But you have to put some work into it, not just learning how to run the equipment (that's he easy part), but also studying the market. Luck helps.

[notlist3d]

Aside from electricity costs, timing is very important. A home miner with reasonable electricity costs that bought S5s or SP20s in Jan. 2015 has done very well, as the resale value of those miners has actually increased since then, while they've made decent revenue over cost.

Someone that bought the three SP20 deal for $1195 with free shipping, for example, can probably get that much back even on eBay after fees right now, and will have essentially had free equipment to run for six months. Of course, that is obvious in hindsight.

The best thing to do is closely watch difficulty changes, stay up to date on what manufacturers are up to, and monitor hashrate for new, unannounced farms that may be popping up (or new hardware being tested - it's pretty easy to spot when Bitmain started running their S5s if you study it close enough).

Basically, mining can be profitable. But you have to put some work into it, not just learning how to run the equipment (that's he easy part), but also studying the market. Luck helps.

It is true and helped many of us hobby miners.  I wish I could go back and buy more, but I was maxed out during winter.   With summer got a new mining area and got 100 amp just for mining if I need it.   

But those of the miners who kept believing and bought gear profited... which is good.

[hodedowe]

How is it profitable? Well most people are mining in pools so they get a steady paycheck. For me, it's been more profitable solo mining. I know everyone says it's "dead", "over", "a waste", but I made a 12x ROI on my entire small farm in 30 days just solo mining with a single S3.

Remember, it's a luck game. You just pull a ticket and keep doing that. Eventually you win.

[QuintLeo]

Pools have very little to do with mining profitably.

 It's ALL about the electric rate, the efficiency of your mining gear, how much power you have to use to keep the gear COOL and how much you had to pay for your mining setup, and sometimes incidentals like "pay for help if you have a Mega Farm"....

[notlist3d]

Pools have very little to do with mining profitably.

 It's ALL about the electric rate, the efficiency of your mining gear, how much power you have to use to keep the gear COOL and how much you had to pay for your mining setup, and sometimes incidentals like "pay for help if you have a Mega Farm"....

I would agree on electricity rate.  One a lot of people look over is VAT/Import taxes.  Some places a 20-25 percent tax could kill ROI.

Mining is still alive and will just takes a lot of variables to line up for it to work.

[torepia]

Pools have very little to do with mining profitably.

 It's ALL about the electric rate, the efficiency of your mining gear, how much power you have to use to keep the gear COOL and how much you had to pay for your mining setup, and sometimes incidentals like "pay for help if you have a Mega Farm"....

I would agree on electricity rate.  One a lot of people look over is VAT/Import taxes.  Some places a 20-25 percent tax could kill ROI.

Mining is still alive and will just takes a lot of variables to line up for it to work.

As they have said, elec is everything. Personally I got 0.07$/kwh, but a 25% VAT/import tax. AND the UPS bastards are probably gonna send me a bill for "handling" as well (For the S7). If I remeber correctly, they wanted 600$ in "handling fees" for 5x S1's back in the day.. I'm worried

Edit: I also need to pay a 28% tax on all BTC profits.. I actually don't know yet how I calculate this when I'm mining, and not trading!

[pumawolf]

mine n trade. either do it on cloud platform or  sell the machine while it still has value. plug n play is too slow and risky. thats for the bigger farms.

[QuintLeo]

Pools have very little to do with mining profitably.

 It's ALL about the electric rate, the efficiency of your mining gear, how much power you have to use to keep the gear COOL and how much you had to pay for your mining setup, and sometimes incidentals like "pay for help if you have a Mega Farm"....

I would agree on electricity rate.  One a lot of people look over is VAT/Import taxes.  Some places a 20-25 percent tax could kill ROI.

Mining is still alive and will just takes a lot of variables to line up for it to work.

 "how much you had to pay for your mining gear" - which would include VAT and import taxes where applicable.

[Searing]

Pools have very little to do with mining profitably.

 It's ALL about the electric rate, the efficiency of your mining gear, how much power you have to use to keep the gear COOL and how much you had to pay for your mining setup, and sometimes incidentals like "pay for help if you have a Mega Farm"....

I would agree on electricity rate.  One a lot of people look over is VAT/Import taxes.  Some places a 20-25 percent tax could kill ROI.

Mining is still alive and will just takes a lot of variables to line up for it to work.

As they have said, elec is everything. Personally I got 0.07$/kwh, but a 25% VAT/import tax. AND the UPS bastards are probably gonna send me a bill for "handling" as well (For the S7). If I remeber correctly, they wanted 600$ in "handling fees" for 5x S1's back in the day.. I'm worried

Edit: I also need to pay a 28% tax on all BTC profits.. I actually don't know yet how I calculate this when I'm mining, and not trading!

Yeah in my case at 13c kwh that boat don't float...so unless I just want a toy (like the sidehack 8gb usb stick for 25 bucks with the ROI of a smile ) I got zip for any ideas
on wtf I'll ever be able to mine with again and be within 1000 miles of sighting ROI land