Greece Cannot Pay, Greece Will Not Pay

[HarHarHar9965]

I understand that all his decisions weren't really the best ones, everybody makes mistakes. Its not his mistake exclusively, so for us to put all the blame at him. And instead of pointing fingers at people, I think more concentration should be provided on how to make the debts go away by hard work. There is no substitute to that, and I think that Tsipras is taking it like a man and handling it well, I think he's a nice guy.

Politicians are judged by the results of their decisions, not by their intention. The January they received a partially stabilized economy, with primary surplus and small GDP growth, and now their policy over the last 7 months has created a primary deficit, closed banks for about 2 weeks and even more recession of about 4-5% GDP. Moreover, they have caused a great political instability because their MPs did not support the new bailout which is going to be the government policy for the next years but they do support the goverment! That's complete madnesss!

Well then there are a lot of times when big politicians have made huge mistakes but it did not mean that they should be blamed and thrown behind the bars, nobody really wants to be in this situation anyway. Greece has its hands tied and are forced to beg for money from the eurozone while Eurozone does not want Grexit to take place as it can be really dangerous if other countries start getting a little too involved, shit happens. let's deal with it.

[1713492617]

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[Pab]

...

Pab

Hey, if France leaves, it's all over.  Presumably Spain and/or Italy and/or Portugal would fail before France, so that would be PIGS and Cyprus even before France.

If France falls Germany falls.

Then you all have 48 hours, max, to get your final preps done before the tsunami hits the USA.  Smart people will want to closely monitor not only Europe, but China as well.  Chinese (Shanghai) stocks are down about 0.5% as I write.

France doesnt want leave,all that EU bailouts are in fact french and german bailouts,that iswhy thay are still puting bln in Greece,problem will be when Euro  will fail,what may happen if any of three pigs and greece will leave Euro

One more thing
Deutche Bank is owning derivatives wort 5x of  all Eu nation GDP
it isvirtual ponzi what need more andmore fresh blood to survive

And there will be more and more about Catalunia wiill separate from Spain,Catalunia is richest Spain area,thay doesnt need EU

China collapse will be problem for China,catastrophe for westerness world

At least China will shutdown stock markets

You raise some good points Pab.

Deutsche Bank ("Douche Bank" to some of us Americans) does indeed have HUGE exposure to derivatives that could create BIG PROBLEMS if allowed to default.  I just do not know much about the conditions of big European banks, I hear that in general they are at least as weak as the big American ones (which are pretty weak).  Nor do I know anything, really, about derivatives exposure in Europe.

Catalunia is an interesting case, thanks for bringing that up.  A "Devolving Europe" probably would mean even more trouble.

China is a Big Black Hole.  No one really knows what would/will happen when China implodes.......

EU big banksand USA big banks is one big loving family,in 2008 USA banksasked for 800bln$ otherwise we will fail and without us economy will crash,EU banks came to EBC and told buy from us Pigs cpuntry debts,thay have trouble to pay,if we fail economy will crash,EBC gave them money together with estimated future profit.From that time all that austerity,bailout begin,In fact commercial banks were buying debt for profit on his own risk,so why Eurozone citzens were paying them.In both cases nobody have been asked for citzens agreements

Deutche  Bank is EU leader in EU together with Royal Bank of Scotland.Libor scandal,money laundering etc

Catalunia,there is local election in Spain combined with referndumto stay or leave,Madid is saying it is iligal but catalunian dont care anymore what frauded Madrid is saying

[chrispap95]

Well then there are a lot of times when big politicians have made huge mistakes but it did not mean that they should be blamed and thrown behind the bars, nobody really wants to be in this situation anyway. Greece has its hands tied and are forced to beg for money from the eurozone while Eurozone does not want Grexit to take place as it can be really dangerous if other countries start getting a little too involved, shit happens. let's deal with it.

I didn't say to throw them behind bars, I just said their policy over the last 7 months is a complete failure. I don't know how many people actually know that Greece has avoided to go bankrupt during the last 3 months by ceasing the government's payments inside the country. And of course know Greece has its hands tied but who is really responsible for this? Are the Europeans to blame for the leaving of 30bn out of the banks during this year or for the new recruitments in the public sector and the incomplete execution of the state budget? Back in December Greece was neither in need of a bank recapitalization nor of a so tight fiscal policy in order to keep its primary surplus in the same levels. The vulnerability of Greek economy to the political goals of the Europeans(Spanish elections etc.) is a result of the lack of realistic strategy by A. Tsipras.

[Litejavichu]

It's all a big scam. Friends bankers give money to corrupt politicians and then make laws to collect.

[AtheistAKASaneBrain]

Tsipras seems a good guy. He seems that loves his people and want the best for him. Especially for the people in need. But this doesn't matter in econmy. If are debts they must be paid. This is a rule that cannot be avoided. Even it will be some of the debt that will be granted there are to much other that must be paid. So he must prepare the Greece to work hard and to be prepared for hard times.

I also think he just wants the best for the Greek citizens and doesn't have any hidden, evil agenda like some conspiracy theory guys like to think. But let's be realistic, he should have know from the start that he wouldn't be able to get away with it. He should have know that if he wants to avoid the austerity measures, he has to man up and take the huge risk of leaving the Eurozone.

[greBit]

Well then there are a lot of times when big politicians have made huge mistakes but it did not mean that they should be blamed and thrown behind the bars, nobody really wants to be in this situation anyway. Greece has its hands tied and are forced to beg for money from the eurozone while Eurozone does not want Grexit to take place as it can be really dangerous if other countries start getting a little too involved, shit happens. let's deal with it.

I didn't say to throw them behind bars, I just said their policy over the last 7 months is a complete failure. I don't know how many people actually know that Greece has avoided to go bankrupt during the last 3 months by ceasing the government's payments inside the country. And of course know Greece has its hands tied but who is really responsible for this? Are the Europeans to blame for the leaving of 30bn out of the banks during this year or for the new recruitments in the public sector and the incomplete execution of the state budget? Back in December Greece was neither in need of a bank recapitalization nor of a so tight fiscal policy in order to keep its primary surplus in the same levels. The vulnerability of Greek economy to the political goals of the Europeans(Spanish elections etc.) is a result of the lack of realistic strategy by A. Tsipras.

Agreed that the political decision making failure was a big reason why Greece is in a mess right now, along with other factors which brought Greece to how things are now. Politicians are the legal representative chosen by people, and those people put their trust on his decisions so that means that even if the decisions aren't completely correct, everybody has to deal with the consequences. I don't think so he is having any fun when he has to go through 6-7 hour long conference meetings to discuss Greece's policy. And I hope you don't think its a conspiracy.

[bryant.coleman]

I have seen some scary statistics on how much of this debt will cripple economies who provided these loans. One of the biggest losers are Germany. So for Greece this has severe consequences, but it is..............?

Bad debt from Greece is the price paid by Germany in exchange for its dominance in the European Union. The European Union is a project by the Germans, to bring the idea of Fourth Reich to life. If Germany wants to dominate the Europe, then they have to pay a price for that. Greece is not going to be the last one. There will be plenty more. Be prepared. 

[n2004al]

I have seen some scary statistics on how much of this debt will cripple economies who provided these loans. One of the biggest losers are Germany. So for Greece this has severe consequences, but it is..............?

Bad debt from Greece is the price paid by Germany in exchange for its dominance in the European Union. The European Union is a project by the Germans, to bring the idea of Fourth Reich to life. If Germany wants to dominate the Europe, then they have to pay a price for that. Greece is not going to be the last one. There will be plenty more. Be prepared.  

Once upon a time was the hate of the Germans for Jewish. It was horrible and the end of war began from Germans marked even the end of this kind of antisemitism. In our days, when racism is condemned by the civilized people i see another horrible writing that testify the infertility of thoughts and a new racizm. German are leaders in Europe in everything. Their economy is leader because they are workers people. They don't want to dominate but they are leaders by their work. They cannot grace the money for which they had sweaty to have to a lazy people which falsificate their data since the beginning to enter in European Union and then again and again to take credits in order to increase their salaries without working. And the end to be "proud" to vote no to not give their debt to the owners.

[Litejavichu]

It's funny ... as were some wealthy gentlemen thieves money from all over Europe and people are still trying to analyze the situation as mathematically.
These gentlemen were expelled from Latin America or South America and have come with money to do the same thing there. It is so difficult to assume that a few rich are allied with corrupt politicians to rob citizens? And if not, can someone tell me why in Spain the rich, now with crises they are 40% more wealthy than before? Where is the famous flight of capital?

[mindrust]

I haven't ever seen people as lazy as Greeks. They open their shops 2-3 times a week, for a limited time. (mostly afternoons of course, too lazy to wake up early) They don't give a shit if the customer really needs something from their store, they don't give a damn about money. They know their big cousins will feed them forever. (In this case they are Germany and France)

Don't get confused, It is not the Greek people who are poor at the moment, It is the government.

Time to meet with long working hours, low salaries, high taxes. But if I was a Greek guy, still i wouldn't give a crap. Let Germans think about my mess.

 

[Miracal]

It's funny ... as were some wealthy gentlemen thieves money from all over Europe and people are still trying to analyze the situation as mathematically.
These gentlemen were expelled from Latin America or South America and have come with money to do the same thing there. It is so difficult to assume that a few rich are allied with corrupt politicians to rob citizens? And if not, can someone tell me why in Spain the rich, now with crises they are 40% more wealthy than before? Where is the famous flight of capital?

Spain has already had its fair share of economic problems, its rather recovering now. An economic growth of 0.9 has been reported for the first quarter of 2015, I remember. Also, unemployment is falling in spain. Nearly half a million cars were also sold this year which is the record high sales there, the last time that happened was in 2010. Even mortgage activity continues to increase in spain, because they escaped their economic problems now.

[qiwoman2]

I can't really blame this Government for everything as they inherited the Country in a big mess anyway, so they being blamed for everything isn't fair at all. When the peeps all said we don't want austerity but we wanna stay in the Euro what was Tsipras meant to do? Now the hardcore left are lobbying for a grexit and a return to the Drachma, you just can't please everyone..For me we should have grexited in January but then you would have the majority of peeps up in arms because they wanted to stay in the Euro..From the fire into the frying pan, Tsipras whatever he does just can't please anyone because the people want it all, not to pay the debt, not want austerity and stay in the Euro..It just can't happen.. You either exit the Euro and work the ass off rebuilding the country or stay in the Euro and try to negotiate and collect whatever crumbs you can.. I don't blame Tsipras at all, he has done his best with what he has to work with.

[Litejavichu]

It's funny ... as were some wealthy gentlemen thieves money from all over Europe and people are still trying to analyze the situation as mathematically.
These gentlemen were expelled from Latin America or South America and have come with money to do the same thing there. It is so difficult to assume that a few rich are allied with corrupt politicians to rob citizens? And if not, can someone tell me why in Spain the rich, now with crises they are 40% more wealthy than before? Where is the famous flight of capital?

Spain has already had its fair share of economic problems, its rather recovering now. An economic growth of 0.9 has been reported for the first quarter of 2015, I remember. Also, unemployment is falling in spain. Nearly half a million cars were also sold this year which is the record high sales there, the last time that happened was in 2010. Even mortgage activity continues to increase in spain, because they escaped their economic problems now.

But we're 1.2 trillion and rising, more indebted Greece. But it will brown eat "Boliviaranos" ... Growth economic is false, like all what comes out of the mouth of a government that has half of the workforce in jail for stealing or investigated for it. A shame

[n2004al]

It's funny ... as were some wealthy gentlemen thieves money from all over Europe and people are still trying to analyze the situation as mathematically.
These gentlemen were expelled from Latin America or South America and have come with money to do the same thing there. It is so difficult to assume that a few rich are allied with corrupt politicians to rob citizens? And if not, can someone tell me why in Spain the rich, now with crises they are 40% more wealthy than before? Where is the famous flight of capital?

Spain has already had its fair share of economic problems, its rather recovering now. An economic growth of 0.9 has been reported for the first quarter of 2015, I remember. Also, unemployment is falling in spain. Nearly half a million cars were also sold this year which is the record high sales there, the last time that happened was in 2010. Even mortgage activity continues to increase in spain, because they escaped their economic problems now.

Very good. An excellent example of what happen if the people is responsible and understand that only the WORK can save everything. Can get out from the crisis and maybe later even can give prosperity. Maybe needed time that they passes all their problems but the signs are good. They didn't do some referendum to not give the debt to their owners but put down their head, sweated their forehead and created value. That mean money. And are enjoyed the fruits.

[Miracal]

Growth economic is false, like all what comes out of the mouth of a government that has half of the workforce in jail for stealing or investigated for it. A shame

You can call growth economics false but you cannot falsify the math. Numbers say things how they are.

Very good. An excellent example of what happen if the people is responsible and understand that only the WORK can save everything. Can get out from the crisis and maybe later even can give prosperity. Maybe needed time that they passes all their problems but the signs are good. They didn't do some referendum to not give the debt to their owners but put down their head, sweated their forehead and created value. That mean money. And are enjoyed the fruits.

The only way people can help their country is by eliminating corruption out of its roots. If the country decides to take risks and put things on the line for the people of the country, people must back the country with good support. The riches in Spain did not escape the country but invested their money which brought back positive gains into the country.

[g1974ak]

Growth economic is false, like all what comes out of the mouth of a government that has half of the workforce in jail for stealing or investigated for it. A shame

You can call growth economics false but you cannot falsify the math. Numbers say things how they are.

Very good. An excellent example of what happen if the people is responsible and understand that only the WORK can save everything. Can get out from the crisis and maybe later even can give prosperity. Maybe needed time that they passes all their problems but the signs are good. They didn't do some referendum to not give the debt to their owners but put down their head, sweated their forehead and created value. That mean money. And are enjoyed the fruits.

The only way people can help their country is by eliminating corruption out of its roots. If the country decides to take risks and put things on the line for the people of the country, people must back the country with good support. The riches in Spain did not escape the country but invested their money which brought back positive gains into the country.

I agree with you. But corruption is only one of the the worst things that can happen to one nation. Because scour every good thing arrived with try and sweat. But is not the only. Another very big important thing is that people must understand that everything begin with the work. Without work cannot go nowhere. If the people are lazy and want that everything maked itself then nothing will arrive. Nothing will be achieved.

[eerygarden]

It's funny ... as were some wealthy gentlemen thieves money from all over Europe and people are still trying to analyze the situation as mathematically.
These gentlemen were expelled from Latin America or South America and have come with money to do the same thing there. It is so difficult to assume that a few rich are allied with corrupt politicians to rob citizens? And if not, can someone tell me why in Spain the rich, now with crises they are 40% more wealthy than before? Where is the famous flight of capital?

Spain has already had its fair share of economic problems, its rather recovering now. An economic growth of 0.9 has been reported for the first quarter of 2015, I remember. Also, unemployment is falling in spain. Nearly half a million cars were also sold this year which is the record high sales there, the last time that happened was in 2010. Even mortgage activity continues to increase in spain, because they escaped their economic problems now.

Very good. An excellent example of what happen if the people is responsible and understand that only the WORK can save everything. Can get out from the crisis and maybe later even can give prosperity. Maybe needed time that they passes all their problems but the signs are good. They didn't do some referendum to not give the debt to their owners but put down their head, sweated their forehead and created value. That mean money. And are enjoyed the fruits.

So in summary work makes you free. Arbeit macht frei.

[misterycoins]

The question is, if Greece managed to leave euro, that could mean other countries which are also in debt can also follow suit and do the same. Eventually when more countries follow the same action, it can only mean that the whole union will collapse. These has been projected to happen for some time now and I see no other solution.

[RoboRob]

The question is, if Greece managed to leave euro, that could mean other countries which are also in debt can also follow suit and do the same. Eventually when more countries follow the same action, it can only mean that the whole union will collapse. These has been projected to happen for some time now and I see no other solution.

Well put, every day greece is still in the euro the damage to the union increases.

Greek can no longer service its debt, which is now 200% of GDP, european partners are on the hook for billions now.

Its a downward spiral for greece, there intrest payments alone are crippling them


But what do you do, you kick greece out, then Italy and Spain will be out right behind them, both are in as much of a state as greece in reality, spanish and italian banks took a kicking from which they still aint recovered.

My vote is the EU crubles in the next 10 years, and with Member states like Britan, Ireland and Holland all seeking to renegotatie there terms in relation to the EU.


At this point, greece should be likened to pandora's box, right now its just a bottom less pit from which there will soon be no escape

[greBit]

The question is, if Greece managed to leave euro, that could mean other countries which are also in debt can also follow suit and do the same. Eventually when more countries follow the same action, it can only mean that the whole union will collapse. These has been projected to happen for some time now and I see no other solution.

The very reason why Euro is still funding Greece and taking a hit on its finances is that if Greece leaves, so does other important countries which seem like a liability but actually are the asset to Eurozone, and the reason why Greece is still in Eurozone is because Greece knows exactly what's in store for them when they go independent and they're getting attention because of their geographical position, nothing else.