Is ISIS Proof that Islam has Failed at Peace?

[Daniel91]

Some questions that have been on my mind, due to the discussions taking place on this board and the happenings in the Middle East:

1.  Is the rise of ISIS proof that Islam's "official" message of peace has failed?
1.A.  Is a message of "peace" consistent with any religious group that claims a monopoly on the path to salvation, or is any violence in the name of a religion justifiable within the context of that religion's value system?

2.  If "official" Islam preaches peace, why is a rogue sect of Islam with a violent ideology proving so successful in spreading such a blatantly anti-Islamic message to people who self-identify as Muslim?

3.  Who is ultimately responsible for self-identified Muslims who propagate violence in the name of Islam?
3.A.  In the marketplace of competing ideas, if the violent rogue ideology is more popular than the "official" peaceful ideology among people who call themselves Muslims in a given geographic area, does that suggest a failure of the peaceful ideology or the leaders of the peaceful ideology to engage these self-proclaimed Muslims and win their hearts and minds?

4.  If we call ISIS' form of Islam false, what does it matter if they receive popular support from self-identified Muslims? (i.e. does subscribing to a violent version of Islam make them non-Muslims?)
4.A.  How can a group self-identify as Muslim or Islamic and hold values that differ so greatly from what other Muslims consider to be legitimate to the religion?

Thoughts/answers to the above?

Very interesting questions.
I will try to answer.
1. In my opinion, ISIS don't represent Islam in any way. They are just using their name for their own, selfish purpose.
2. Every religion talks about peace but the ultimate responsibility for peace depends on the rulers, and each person individually
3. Yes, you are right, but here we can also see the failure of Western countries and the idea of multiculturalism in general.
4. No
4 A Hatred and bitterness can do much to change people's consciousness and turn them to violence as a solution to all problems.

[1714792768]

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[1714792768]

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[alani123]

I don't think that ISIS represents the entirety of Muslims. If anything it serves as proof that there can be extremists in any religions. Now, to what extent they can justify their actions based on holy scriptures may vary from religion to religion.

[PaoloSerBit]

Islam was never a very peaceful religion but that´s an exageration to identify all the muslims with ISIS. And we can link the brutality of modern muslim terrorists with poverty of the regions the live in.

[Spendulus]

Islam was never a very peaceful religion but that´s an exageration to identify all the muslims with ISIS. And we can link the brutality of modern muslim terrorists with poverty of the regions the live in.

That may be reversing cause and effect:  Not that the poverty propagates the brutality, but that the Islamic beliefs create the poverty, and then in some areas, the brutality.

[BADecker]

I don't think that ISIS represents the entirety of Muslims. If anything it serves as proof that there can be extremists in any religions. Now, to what extent they can justify their actions based on holy scriptures may vary from religion to religion.

No, it's the other way around.

Not all Muslims represent Islam, even though they say they do. To represent a religion, you have to do what that religion says. ISIS is doing a better job of it that most other Muslims do.

The problem is that most people don't really know what Islam is. Even most Muslims try to whitewash Islam because they are shocked at the violent side.

Either be the religion, or admit that you are weak. But don't try to make it into something that it is not - Islam = peace... NOT.

[ummina]

good question. i like it.
so, what else with Islam?


many people dont understand the order by my GOD by my Prophet also.
Islam not to teach about the disturbance, make destroyed in everywhere, that is people who not understand what is the point be countained on my religion.
we should to know, every religion is good, nothing religion teach to broke each other right? every religion is teach about peace..
in Al-Qur'an was say by Allah if " there are non Moeslim is not make destroyed or interfere with Islam, we cannot and even ruling illegitimate to interfere they"...
Islam is very beautifull if they understand about this! why?? there are like ISIS or like a same, make some disturbance and Islam partake with this situation??? we Moeslim cry about this, we also cry when they make disturbance, destroyed, kill anywhere....

try to understand, everyone want to have peace life, not havent pleasant life.

[BADecker]

Try to understand, most people want to have peace.

True written Islam teaches peace. But the only way it teaches REAL peace is when everyone becomes Muslim.

True Islam may teach temporary peace to non-Muslims, but it also teaches violence to non-Muslims.

If you want to be a true Muslim, if you want to truly be a follower of Islam, you need to be ready to do violence against every person who is not a Muslim. If you are not ready to do this, then you are a weak Muslim.

Is it good to be a weak Muslim? Yes! In fact, be a good person and get rid of Islam altogether. Many other religions teach peace without any of the violence that Islam teaches.

[RappelzReborn]

Try to understand, most people want to have peace.

True written Islam teaches peace. But the only way it teaches REAL peace is when everyone becomes Muslim.

True Islam may teach temporary peace to non-Muslims, but it also teaches violence to non-Muslims.

If you want to be a true Muslim, if you want to truly be a follower of Islam, you need to be ready to do violence against every person who is not a Muslim. If you are not ready to do this, then you are a weak Muslim.

Is it good to be a weak Muslim? Yes! In fact, be a good person and get rid of Islam altogether. Many other religions teach peace without any of the violence that Islam teaches.

Cut the crap if you don 't know anything about Islam dude .
our Prophet spoke about "Khawaraj" and gave decription about them and that they will come and they should be killed . and those descriptions matchs ISIS so ISIS have nothing to do with Islam even if they think they do .

[Spendulus]

Try to understand, most people want to have peace.

True written Islam teaches peace. But the only way it teaches REAL peace is when everyone becomes Muslim.

True Islam may teach temporary peace to non-Muslims, but it also teaches violence to non-Muslims.

If you want to be a true Muslim, if you want to truly be a follower of Islam, you need to be ready to do violence against every person who is not a Muslim. If you are not ready to do this, then you are a weak Muslim.

Is it good to be a weak Muslim? Yes! In fact, be a good person and get rid of Islam altogether. Many other religions teach peace without any of the violence that Islam teaches.

Cut the crap if you don 't know anything about Islam dude .
our Prophet spoke about "Khawaraj" and gave decription about them and that they will come and they should be killed . and those descriptions matchs ISIS so ISIS have nothing to do with Islam even if they think they do .

http://britishmuslimsoldier.blogspot.co.uk/

[BADecker]

Try to understand, most people want to have peace.

True written Islam teaches peace. But the only way it teaches REAL peace is when everyone becomes Muslim.

True Islam may teach temporary peace to non-Muslims, but it also teaches violence to non-Muslims.

If you want to be a true Muslim, if you want to truly be a follower of Islam, you need to be ready to do violence against every person who is not a Muslim. If you are not ready to do this, then you are a weak Muslim.

Is it good to be a weak Muslim? Yes! In fact, be a good person and get rid of Islam altogether. Many other religions teach peace without any of the violence that Islam teaches.

Cut the crap if you don 't know anything about Islam dude .
our Prophet spoke about "Khawaraj" and gave decription about them and that they will come and they should be killed . and those descriptions matchs ISIS so ISIS have nothing to do with Islam even if they think they do .

There you go again, trying to call true Islamites the bad guys.

The Prophet was talking about people of other religions who would fight Islam. And he was talking about Islamites who would break the faith in groups.

ISIS isn't breaking the faith. ISIS is upholding the faith in every way.

If you want to be peaceful in Islam, are you supposed to fight Islamites who are upholding the faith? No! If you do that, you are becoming violent, the exact thing you are talking against doing. Yet, as you admitted, "they will come and they should be killed." So you, yourself, are talking about doing the violence you are condemning ISIS of doing.

Wake up and see that Islam is a religion of violence, and even you are caught up in its stupidity.

===============

Everyone who wants to live for any length of time needs to be peaceful at times, and with their own people. Constant violence doesn't work for anybody, individual or group. This means that violent people have to be peaceful at times simply to live.

However, if there is peace, it can work without violence at all... if the people will simply be peaceful.

Islam has both, peace and violence. It can work only if it has peace at some time. But because it has violence, it is a religion and government of violence. Wake up.

[Snail2]

Islam never been and never will be a peaceful religion. It was optimized for conquering and spreading by the sword since its birth. The only peaceful muslims are the muslims in minority, when they do not have the power to force their religion and customs on others. As soon as they became to the majority or a sufficiently big, coherent group in an atomized and weakened community (like most European nations today) they are going to show their real intentions.

[Spendulus]

Islam never been and never will be a peaceful religion. It was optimized for conquering and spreading by the sword since its birth. The only peaceful muslims are the muslims in minority, when they do not have the power to force their religion and customs on others. As soon as they became to the majority or a sufficiently big, coherent group in an atomized and weakened community (like most European nations today) they are going to show their real intentions.

Since the Peaceful Muslims don't point guns and force correct behavior at the Violent Muslims, Peaceful Muslims are totally, ridiculously irrelevant.

[RodeoX]

Religion is not peaceful. Religion says that we are divided and that, because God is a super being, you are absolutely wrong to believe otherwise. It does not matter what God your talking about.

[BADecker]

Religion is not peaceful. Religion says that we are divided and that, because God is a super being, you are absolutely wrong to believe otherwise. It does not matter what God your talking about.

I don't agree with your religion of the things you are saying here. Therefore you are correct. Religion causes division, and I just proved it by, in MY religion and religiousness, not agreeing with what you said.

The point is, what is the truth? We know by science and nature that God exists. So, God is not religion. Religion is the things that we understand about God and the universe, things that are difficult if not impossible to prove, and maybe to even find evidence for.

However, like it or not, the evidence of the various religions, when delved into deeply, show that the Judeo-Christian religion is far and away the most logical choice because of what it is in its entirety.

[mudiko]

I think its not really easy to relate peace to a religion. All of them had kinda religious wars etc. and ISIS cannot be related to Islam, because they are just a terrorist group which is against repetition of Islam.

[BADecker]

I think its not really easy to relate peace to a religion. All of them had kinda religious wars etc. and ISIS cannot be related to Islam, because they are just a terrorist group which is against repetition of Islam.

Again, religious wars are done by people. People often say that they belong to a certain religion without understanding what that religion says or expects them to do. Christian religious wars were not done according to Christianity. There is no directive in the New Testament from whence Christianity flows, to make religious war. The closest thing that there might be is to love family and friends. And one might do this by forcefully fighting off attackers at times. But the directive to do this does not exist.

Islam has directives to do it (fight). ISIS members continually repeat the words of Islam that express such. From http://bigthink.com/praxis/how-islamic-is-isis:

“Koranic quotations are ubiquitous. ‘Even the foot soldiers spout this stuff constantly,’ Haykel said. ‘They mug for their cameras and repeat their basic doctrines in formulaic fashion, and they do it all the time.’ He regards the claim that the Islamic State has distorted the texts of Islam as preposterous, sustainable only through willful ignorance. ‘People want to absolve Islam,’ he said. ‘It’s this “Islam is a religion of peace” mantra. As if there is such a thing as “Islam”! It’s what Muslims do, and how they interpret their texts ... And these guys have just as much legitimacy as anyone else.’ "

ISIS has just as much right to interpret the Islamic texts according to what those texts say, as anyone else.

In the same website, Obama is quoted as saying that ISIS is not Islamic. Obama wants to get America to accept Islam with open arms, even though Islam has a fundamental "streak" of solid violence against all who oppose Islam. This includes Christianity and the American government.

Why would Obama want to oppose the American government? Because it is the form of that government that is keeping him or any other president from becoming and being dictator.

In America, every individual adult person is a king, by basic Constitutional law and mandate, based on common law of the people. It is evident from the Bill of Rights articles listed as the 6th, 7th, and 9th Amendments. These are the things that destroy governmental dictatorship in America.

Although government looks like it has made great inroads into taking away sovereignty from Americans, it is only by the ignorance about their government foisted on the people by the public schools that gives the American government the limited power that they have. If the people woke up, the government would have little power over them. But the people need to wake up and stand as real men and women to be in that kind of strength.

[mohsin qureshi]

Islam means the religion of peace. A person following Islam will find that he or she is surrounded by noble teachings, the aim of which is to establish peace between man and Allah, the Creator of all; between man and man; and between man and the rest of Allah’s creation.

How does such a religion deal with the issue of terrorism? And what does the word terrorist mean? Dictionaries will define a terrorist as one who systematically uses violence and intimidation to achieve political ends – or one who controls or forces others to do something by violence, fear or threats.

But Islam does not content itself with these injunctions strongly forbidding Muslims from ever becoming terrorists. It also makes sure that the believers are made into highly moral, excellently behaved people, by inculcating those lofty human values that can turn them into people who sincerely love humankind without distinction of religion, race or social status. Islam no doubt encourages the logical and rational discussion of views with people of all creeds in a calm and dispassionate way, with the only aim that truth prevail over error and falsehood. But it also reminds us that it is error and falsehood as such that are to be hated and detested. The people who unfortunately hold on to error are never to be hated. That is why the motto of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is ‘Love for all, hatred for none.’

Far from inciting hatred and aggressiveness in its followers, Islam keeps on enjoining kindness and sympathy for all. The Holy Prophet Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said: ‘Charity is incumbent upon every human limb every day on which the sun rises. To bring about reconciliation between two contestants is charity. Helping a person mount his animal or to load his baggage on to it is charity. A good word is charity. Every step taken toward the mosque for prayer is charity. To remove anything from the street that causes inconvenience is charity.’

However, Muslims have been warned by the Holy Founder of Islam, Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, that when they enter the territory of those who have been terrorizing and harshly persecuting them, they should not lose all sense of perspective and justice, and be tempted to start acting savagely, like the terrorists themselves. The worst crime of ungratefulness would be that committed by a people who, having forgotten that they had just been subjected to terrible cruelties, start meting out the same, if not worse, cruelties to others. The Prophet ordered:

‘You will meet those who remember Almighty Allah in their houses of worship. Have no dispute with them, and give no trouble to them. In the enemy country, do not kill any women or children, or the blind, or the old. Do not pull down any tree; nor pull down any building.’ (Quoted from Halbiyyah, Vol.3).

So the only Jihad permitted in Islam is the war of the oppressed against the oppressor, the war waged to protect the peace of all people irrespective of their religion or creed. Tactics used today such as suicide bombing, etc. are absolutely out of the question for true followers of Islam. Allah Almighty says:

It is our belief that not only Islam, but no true religion, whatever its name, can sanction violence and bloodshed of innocent men, women and children in the name of Allah Almighty. Terrorists may use religious or political labels, but no one should be deceived by their wily ways and treacherous guiles. They have nothing to do with religion. They are the enemies of peace. They must be combated at every level as advocated by Islam, the religion of peace.

[bitsmichel]

2.  If "official" Islam preaches peace, why is a rogue sect of Islam with a violent ideology proving so successful in spreading such a blatantly anti-Islamic message to people who self-identify as Muslim?

Islam does not preach peace but submission. This submission is to god (allah).  Muslims pray to allah and ask for forgiveness. They kneel for the same reason.

[ausbit]

2.  If "official" Islam preaches peace, why is a rogue sect of Islam with a violent ideology proving so successful in spreading such a blatantly anti-Islamic message to people who self-identify as Muslim?

Islam does not preach peace but submission. This submission is to god (allah).  Muslims pray to allah and ask for forgiveness. They kneel for the same reason.

Islam is a very peaceful religion, but when some one wants to hurt them for any reason kills them because of religion issues then they have rights too to take revenge. ISIS is a terrorist group killing anyone, even Muslims too just to show their fear and take money from foreign countries.

[Spendulus]

Islam means the religion of peace. ......
So the only Jihad permitted in Islam is the war of the oppressed against the oppressor.....

So all a slippery tongued Imam needs to do to justify and promote violent Jihad is to convince everyone in his congregation they are the oppressed, the victims of Western infidels?  That they have been abused for a hundred years?  That the Entire West is their enemy?

Man, that sounds awfully easy to do. 

Sounds like .... Jihad is permitted in Islam.....