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Author Topic: BTC confirmation times suitable for payments scenario?  (Read 1178 times)
TrueBeliever (OP)
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July 21, 2015, 01:45:16 PM
 #21

This used to be all theoretical and we would discuss it over and over much like we are in this thread.


But you can already use bitcoins in stores and restaurants. It happens all the time. No need to theorize.



I am only theorizing attack vectors.  For the general use case I am happy to analyze the empirical evidence from actual scenarios.

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July 21, 2015, 01:58:17 PM
 #22

there are shops, bars and restaurants who accept your bitcoin payment without a single confirmation. but that's probably up to €50. not sure if they also accept it without confirmations above that amount.

This is exactly the situation I see as ripe for scammers.  3 people in different shops using the same bitcoin wallet.  they coordinate via whatsapp to make the payment at approximately the same time.  3 transactions appear on the network but 2 are rejected as a double-spend. That is 3 €50 dresses for just €50.

What is the solution?  Wait ~10 minutes for 1 confirmation?

I see a business model here for multisig wallet providers that focus on shopping hot wallets for smartphones.  With a trusted counter-party to guarantee no double-spend the merchant lets you walk out the door immediately.  Yes we don't like centralization and counter-parties, but this just a niche, you put spending btc into your shopping wallet for the convenience of instant payments.

3 people coordinating to steal €50...or, one person just steals €50 worth of stuff and runs out.

Especially in bars, and restaurants you are usually there for a few minutes anyway. And just about every place I have paid in person has used a third party service like BitPay or another local processor.

So more than likely the three shops in your scenario will use the same processor. They see 3 payments coming through from the same address and drop the second 2.

If you want to get elaborate with stealing €50 with 3 people, one guy pays with his credit card, another guy climbs on the roof to block the satellite connection of the payment and the third guy for lookout.

Most people who complain about the long transaction times for in person payment have never paid in person. Try it. You'll see how simple it is.

Your scenario is based on using a bitcoin payment processor, this is very common currently because most merchants want to convert instantly to fiat.  even the bitcoin price is dynamically adjusted by the payment processor because the merchant has based his prices in fiat.  Under this scenario sure the payment processor would likely pick up on a double-spend attack.

However the scenario I am painting is based in the future when the merchant denominates prices and pays suppliers in btc.  In this scenario he just needs a wallet.  He sees the unconfirmed transaction show up in his wallet and lets the customer go.  but the customer has colluded with customers in other stores to spend the full amount of the wallet balance at the same time... only one merchant will have his transaction confirmed.

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July 21, 2015, 02:05:41 PM
 #23

people accept credit cards for regular payments and you can cancel any transaction made with it, 6 months after!!

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July 21, 2015, 02:16:33 PM
 #24

there are shops, bars and restaurants who accept your bitcoin payment without a single confirmation. but that's probably up to €50. not sure if they also accept it without confirmations above that amount.

This is exactly the situation I see as ripe for scammers.  3 people in different shops using the same bitcoin wallet.  they coordinate via whatsapp to make the payment at approximately the same time.  3 transactions appear on the network but 2 are rejected as a double-spend. That is 3 €50 dresses for just €50.

What is the solution?  Wait ~10 minutes for 1 confirmation?

I see a business model here for multisig wallet providers that focus on shopping hot wallets for smartphones.  With a trusted counter-party to guarantee no double-spend the merchant lets you walk out the door immediately.  Yes we don't like centralization and counter-parties, but this just a niche, you put spending btc into your shopping wallet for the convenience of instant payments.

3 people coordinating to steal €50...or, one person just steals €50 worth of stuff and runs out.

Especially in bars, and restaurants you are usually there for a few minutes anyway. And just about every place I have paid in person has used a third party service like BitPay or another local processor.

So more than likely the three shops in your scenario will use the same processor. They see 3 payments coming through from the same address and drop the second 2.

If you want to get elaborate with stealing €50 with 3 people, one guy pays with his credit card, another guy climbs on the roof to block the satellite connection of the payment and the third guy for lookout.

Most people who complain about the long transaction times for in person payment have never paid in person. Try it. You'll see how simple it is.

Your scenario is based on using a bitcoin payment processor, this is very common currently because most merchants want to convert instantly to fiat.  even the bitcoin price is dynamically adjusted by the payment processor because the merchant has based his prices in fiat.  Under this scenario sure the payment processor would likely pick up on a double-spend attack.

However the scenario I am painting is based in the future when the merchant denominates prices and pays suppliers in btc.  In this scenario he just needs a wallet.  He sees the unconfirmed transaction show up in his wallet and lets the customer go.  but the customer has colluded with customers in other stores to spend the full amount of the wallet balance at the same time... only one merchant will have his transaction confirmed.

Nodes don't accept double spend transactions. If they were in close proximity it would be known within seconds.

Satoshi said that after 6 minutes it is reasonable for all the nodes in the network to have your transaction.

About the only way to successfully do a double spend is to spend at the same time as someone on the other side of the world. The transaction would populate all of the nodes in close proximity within seconds, moving on to other countries with more delay until finally reaching the other side of the world closer to a minute or so.

I still believe most merchants will use a payment processor, even when keeping it in Bitcoin. They enjoy the services of having their wallet up to date, accounting software included, the option of converting to fiat, etc.

You would probably have to run out of the building and hope there are no cameras in order to execute a double spend for your small purchase. Same as just grabbing everything and running out the door.

First seastead company actually selling sea homes: Ocean Builders https://ocean.builders  Of course we accept bitcoin.
TrueBeliever (OP)
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July 23, 2015, 06:02:31 AM
 #25


This Coindesk article describes how bitnet allows for instant approvals for merchants based on probability of the transaction later confirming... based on transaction propagation times etc.  This is in line with my thinking and counters the double spend attack mentioned above where two people on other sides of the planet spend simultaneously.  If the transaction is propagating at the normal rate, and not being rejected by any nodes (possible double spend detected) then notify merchant of approval.  I like this solution, fast and effective.

http://www.coindesk.com/bitnet-launches-instant-approval-tool-for-bitcoin-merchants/

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July 23, 2015, 08:09:58 AM
 #26

Cm'on man, Why don't you get it? Bitcoin is not a magic button, it's not like you just click it and whooossshhh....the money is transfered, that's not the case?

It still faster than any other fiat system. So be happy about it and deal with it.

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