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Author Topic: Bitcoin is not real money.  (Read 4345 times)
QuantumKiwi
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October 02, 2012, 04:29:11 AM
 #21

Its a currency, so yes it is a real money.

If you can swap a currency, for a something of monetry value - yes its money...

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October 04, 2012, 12:24:05 AM
 #22

I'm going to delete most of this thread because it's not a real thread.  It's a play thread.

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October 05, 2012, 11:42:54 AM
 #23

I log into Wikipedia and find that somebody deleted most of the article. What do I find as a reason?

Reason: Most of this is not true. Bitcoin is not real money. It's toy money, etc.


Look into their 9/11 article- the official version will always win in there and get stated as fact. The one who writes history, keeps control of 95% of human minds.

[...]  My preference would be to define it simply as a 'decentralized accounting solution', focus on making it useful and robust, and let things fall into place from there.

Keeping a "low profile" as long as possible can actually be an advantage- less attacks !
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October 05, 2012, 09:02:46 PM
 #24

This is how I define "currency" - if someone is willing to take whatever I have in hand or other formats for the good / services that someone provides, that's currency. In that terms, BTC is not used anywhere, or at least used safely; my conclusion is BTC is not a currency yet.
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October 06, 2012, 02:42:54 AM
 #25

This is how I define "currency" - if someone is willing to take whatever I have in hand or other formats for the good / services that someone provides, that's currency. In that terms, BTC is not used anywhere, or at least used safely; my conclusion is BTC is not a currency yet.
Well, I've spent BTC on goods and services, so that makes it a currency -- unless your definition also include some sort of threshold.

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October 08, 2012, 08:02:50 AM
 #26

my $100 bill is worthless in ethiopia.   you just think your $100 is worth something because it can get you something nearby, but its not backed by anything.  If the whole system failed, i'd just be left with a fancy piece of green colored cotton paper that i could wipe my ass with. if you don't think it can happen to your US dollar, then i suggest you watch this documentary:

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FrogBBQ
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October 08, 2012, 01:36:43 PM
 #27

As previously stated, in economic terms what distinguish currency vs money are:
Currency: medium of exchange, unit of account, portable, divisible, durable, fungible (each unit is interchangeable)
Money: all of the above and a store of value

FIAT currencies (USD, EUR, YEN...) are therefore currencies as they do not store any value. As said above by bitcoin they are worth the paper they are printed on. This was not true before August 1971 when you could exchange your green paper for gold, but this is another story. Bitcoin fits perfectly the bill as a currency but not as money as it has no intrinsic value (like precious metals).

This James Turk (GoldMoney) interview of Félix Moreno de la Cova is relevant to the topic addressed in this post I would think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfzHC7Pf2fk&feature=g-u-u
mdude77
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October 08, 2012, 01:38:57 PM
 #28

I log into Wikipedia and find that somebody deleted most of the article. What do I find as a reason?

Reason: Most of this is not true. Bitcoin is not real money. It's toy money, etc.

What gives people the idea that Bitcoin is play money when it trades at over $10 a unit? Why can't people see it as real or are threatened by the idea of it being real?

What do you tell someone who says "Bitcoin is not real money."?

I would say, what's "real" money?  Is that fiat green stuff called federal reserve notes that most people call dollars "real"?  Most currencies today are "fiat" meaning they have "value" only because some government says it has value.  Otherwise it's worthless paper.  Look at Zimbabwe for an example of fiat currency.

BTC has a finite limit, which means no corrupt government (which most are) can inflate it to the fund their petty wars or payoff their political friends.  

I'd say government currencies are government backed, BTC is crowd sourced backed.

Or something like that.

M

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October 08, 2012, 01:43:33 PM
 #29

What wiki entry are we talking about? This one seems ok, but why does it have a silk road section? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin

The gospel according to Satoshi - https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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October 08, 2012, 02:03:52 PM
 #30

mdude77 makes a very good point indeed. Under the FIAT model, currencies are limitless since they can be printed ex nihilo by any central bank/government. The strength of bitcoin comes from its decentralized nature and more importantly the intrinsic limited amount that can be generated (21 million), similar in this latter point as any precious metal.

Maybe the current economic terms should be updated to the following:
Currency: medium of exchange, unit of account, portable, divisible, durable, fungible (each unit is interchangeable)
eCurrency: all of the above and finite
Money: all of the above and a store of value
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October 08, 2012, 02:15:28 PM
 #31

mdude77 makes a very good point indeed. Under the FIAT model, currencies are limitless since they can be printed ex nihilo by any central bank/government. The strength of bitcoin comes from its decentralized nature and more importantly the intrinsic limited amount that can be generated (21 million), similar in this latter point as any precious metal.

Maybe the current economic terms should be updated to the following:
Currency: medium of exchange, unit of account, portable, divisible, durable, fungible (each unit is interchangeable)
eCurrency: all of the above and finite
Money: all of the above and a store of value

And, actually, while there probably is a finite limit of precious metal in the world, it certainly isn't all available right now.  So while it's possible we will some day run out of gold and silver to mine, I think we'll stop generating bitcoins first.  That sort of gives BTC an edge over precious metal.

M

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October 08, 2012, 02:39:54 PM
 #32

Wut? Bitcoins and metals are only real money.
Andy why you say that "bitcoin trades at over $10 a unit"?  Money is a measure of things, not at other direction.
So more correctly to say (especially in bitcoin community) "dollar trades at less 100 mɃ a unit".

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October 08, 2012, 02:58:24 PM
 #33

there probably is a finite limit of precious metal in the world

This is a certainty as with any other resources on our little blue planet.

As for bitcoin they will never be all mined since the network is programmed to increase the money supply as a geometric series, 21 million will not be reached. The difficulty of mining bitcoin tends to mimic real world mining where easy to mine resources are obtained first at low cost and as time goes by it gets harder and harder to obtained and requires either technological breakthrough or massive brute force investment.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Total_bitcoins_over_time.png
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October 08, 2012, 03:08:40 PM
 #34

there probably is a finite limit of precious metal in the world

This is a certainty as with any other resources on our little blue planet.

I won't get into how so many things scientists claim are certain turn out to be wrong.

Quote
As for bitcoin they will never be all mined since the network is programmed to increase the money supply as a geometric series, 21 million will not be reached. The difficulty of mining bitcoin tends to mimic real world mining where easy to mine resources are obtained first at low cost and as time goes by it gets harder and harder to obtained and requires either technological breakthrough or massive brute force investment.

This graph implies miners quit because they are no longer getting paid as much.  If that's true, then bitcoin has a problem.

I think we will mine all the coins.  Remember, difficulty adjusts to compensate for the network hashing power so that so many blocks are mined over a finite period of time.  As long that stays true, the graph will never go asymptotic.  Correct?

M

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October 08, 2012, 03:23:13 PM
 #35

Wrong and wrong.

Earth is a limited planet, what are you smoking? Every resource is finite. If we know the exact amount of what is left and can actually be used of any given element is another question.

You should check the definition of a geometric series. Reward will be divided by half every 4 years or so, it is asymptotic by nature irrelevant of difficulty.
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October 08, 2012, 03:39:18 PM
 #36

Wrong and wrong.

Earth is a limited planet, what are you smoking? Every resource is finite. If we know the exact amount of what is left and can actually be used of any given element is another question.

Wow, no need to get rude.

I'm glad you're so sure of yourself.  You're in good company with the majority of scientists.

Let's take coal.  Supposedly it was made over millions of years.  Did that process suddenly stop?  Therefore coal is still being "formed".

Same for oil.

What about water?  Can we "use up water"?  Sure we can pollute it to no end, but the earth has ways of purifying it. 

Just because you don't think gold is regenerating doesn't mean it isn't.  Can you prove it isn't?  Didn't think so. 

Quote
You should check the definition of a geometric series. Reward will be divided by half every 4 years or so, it is asymptotic by nature irrelevant of difficulty.

Apparently I misunderstood your graph, and you misunderstood me.

Miners are going to continue to mine at the same rate as they are now.  That's the nature of changing difficulty.  Yes, the number of coins per block will decrease as time goes on.  But we will reach the end.  If we don't, bitcoin is dead, because miners stopped mining.

M

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October 08, 2012, 09:18:35 PM
 #37

I just checked and the article seemed pretty accurate!  Perhaps its been reinstated or re written.

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October 09, 2012, 05:24:57 AM
 #38

Wrong and wrong.

Earth is a limited planet, what are you smoking? Every resource is finite. If we know the exact amount of what is left and can actually be used of any given element is another question.

Wow, no need to get rude.

I'm glad you're so sure of yourself.  You're in good company with the majority of scientists.

Let's take coal.  Supposedly it was made over millions of years.  Did that process suddenly stop?  Therefore coal is still being "formed".

Same for oil.

What about water?  Can we "use up water"?  Sure we can pollute it to no end, but the earth has ways of purifying it. 

Just because you don't think gold is regenerating doesn't mean it isn't.  Can you prove it isn't?  Didn't think so. 

Quote
You should check the definition of a geometric series. Reward will be divided by half every 4 years or so, it is asymptotic by nature irrelevant of difficulty.

Apparently I misunderstood your graph, and you misunderstood me.

Miners are going to continue to mine at the same rate as they are now.  That's the nature of changing difficulty.  Yes, the number of coins per block will decrease as time goes on.  But we will reach the end.  If we don't, bitcoin is dead, because miners stopped mining.

M

To the best of my understanding, there is an asymptote, there will never quite be 21 million, and the incentive for "mining" at that point will be collection of transaction fees, rather than mined coins.  So the activity should really be given a different name at that point.

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October 09, 2012, 10:21:42 AM
 #39

To the best of my understanding, there is an asymptote, there will never quite be 21 million, and the incentive for "mining" at that point will be collection of transaction fees, rather than mined coins.  So the activity should really be given a different name at that point.

Isn't that the same as running out?  Smiley

M

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October 16, 2012, 07:19:53 PM
 #40

do i misunderstand how the bitcoin client operates?  if BTC gets widely adopted, just the massive amount # of ppl running the client alone will be enough to keep the blockchain safe and running?

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