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Author Topic: Haw many PPCoins will there be?  (Read 4866 times)
His Most Eminent Highness Grand Caesar Imperator Goat
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September 29, 2012, 10:15:25 AM
 #1

BTC = 21 Million
LTC = 84 Million
SC = Up to the guy who made sc...

So what about PPCoin? Someone told me 2 billion but I kinda doubt it would be trading as high as it is if that were true. Please some one tell me the truth Smiley

Thanks.

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September 29, 2012, 11:06:01 AM
 #2

"There is no hard cap other than a 2 billion coin max put into the code for now. But that should not be interpreted as an approachable cap, as it might never get anywhere close to that."

https://github.com/ppcoin/ppcoin/wiki/FAQ

almost 10 mln ppcoins generated by now.

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September 29, 2012, 11:33:19 AM
 #3

"There is no hard cap other than a 2 billion coin max put into the code for now. But that should not be interpreted as an approachable cap, as it might never get anywhere close to that."

https://github.com/ppcoin/ppcoin/wiki/FAQ

almost 10 mln ppcoins generated by now.

Oh wow! 10 million already??

At this rate there will be half a billion by the end of the year right?


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September 29, 2012, 12:09:45 PM
 #4

9,685,617 PPCoins Created so far

19 August 2012 is when the first coin was created if im not mistaken


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September 29, 2012, 12:10:39 PM
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Oh wow! 10 million already??

At this rate there will be half a billion by the end of the year right?

Not really, I think end of the year <15-20 mln

depends on asic availability

But I guess you missed this boat Goat Tongue

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September 29, 2012, 12:13:35 PM
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Oh wow! 10 million already??

At this rate there will be half a billion by the end of the year right?

Not really, I think end of the year <15-20 mln

depends on asic availability

But I guess you missed this boat Goat Tongue

I could still buy in as the price is almost at all time lows but I don't think I will be. The inflation rate is crazy high. I like bitcoin because I think it is deflationary.

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September 29, 2012, 12:37:23 PM
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whould i mine PPcoin's as i have 100Mhash or should i stay away
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September 29, 2012, 12:39:24 PM
 #8

whould i mine PPcoin's as i have 100Mhash or should i stay away

Do you want ppcoins?  The math I just worked out (might not be correct) showed me that it was slightly more profitable to mine ppcoin than BTC right now. However I doubt that will cover your electric costs.

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September 29, 2012, 12:45:37 PM
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whould i mine PPcoin's as i have 100Mhash or should i stay away

Do you want ppcoins?  The math I just worked out (might not be correct) showed me that it was slightly more profitable to mine ppcoin than BTC right now. However I doubt that will cover your electric costs.

please can you show me your math

and should i mine solo a join a pool

and if pool which pool
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September 29, 2012, 12:55:19 PM
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Oh wow! 10 million already??

At this rate there will be half a billion by the end of the year right?

Not really, I think end of the year <15-20 mln

depends on asic availability

But I guess you missed this boat Goat Tongue

I could still buy in as the price is almost at all time lows but I don't think I will be. The inflation rate is crazy high. I like bitcoin because I think it is deflationary.
What makes you think the long-term inflation rate is crazy high? POS inflation is set to about 1%/year. POW depends on difficulty, but convergences against a small percent figure as well.

While the (relative) inflation rate will decrease with time, it won't get any easier to acquire ppcoin. As far as I can tell they are currently traded at the cost of production. Maybe a little bit lower, because super early adopters can offer at lower price.

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September 29, 2012, 01:27:08 PM
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whould i mine PPcoin's as i have 100Mhash or should i stay away

Do you want ppcoins?  The math I just worked out (might not be correct) showed me that it was slightly more profitable to mine ppcoin than BTC right now. However I doubt that will cover your electric costs.

please can you show me your math

and should i mine solo a join a pool

and if pool which pool

and how many pool's are there for PPcoin?
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September 29, 2012, 01:43:57 PM
 #12

and how many pool's are there for PPcoin?

I know 3:

http://ppcpool.us.to/
http://ppcpool.bitparking.com/
http://coinotron.com/

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September 29, 2012, 01:47:29 PM
 #13

9,685,617 PPCoins Created so far

19 August 2012 is when the first coin was created if im not mistaken



hahahahah, and it's not a pump and dump right?

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September 29, 2012, 01:48:44 PM
 #14

9,685,617 PPCoins Created so far

19 August 2012 is when the first coin was created if im not mistaken



hahahahah, and it's not a pump and dump right?

10 million each month seems pretty high :/

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September 29, 2012, 01:57:28 PM
 #15

9,685,617 PPCoins Created so far

19 August 2012 is when the first coin was created if im not mistaken



hahahahah, and it's not a pump and dump right?

10 million each month seems pretty high :/

Now you're just trolling... cheap.. Sad

Why don't you try to understand the coin instead of trying to make a quick buck ?

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September 29, 2012, 02:02:28 PM
 #16

9,685,617 PPCoins Created so far

19 August 2012 is when the first coin was created if im not mistaken



hahahahah, and it's not a pump and dump right?

10 million each month seems pretty high :/

& 520 confirmations.
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September 29, 2012, 06:20:27 PM
 #17

9,685,617 PPCoins Created so far

19 August 2012 is when the first coin was created if im not mistaken



hahahahah, and it's not a pump and dump right?

10 million each month seems pretty high :/

Now you're just trolling... cheap.. Sad

Why don't you try to understand the coin instead of trying to make a quick buck ?

Perhaps the creator could have taught us all how PPC worked before it launched. IMO him not disclosing all the details and answering all the FAQs before launching is equivalent to PUMP and DUMP. It gives him an unfair advantage on how to trade/hold coins.

Bullshit in my book.

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September 29, 2012, 08:02:24 PM
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Perhaps the creator could have taught us all how PPC worked before it launched. IMO him not disclosing all the details and answering all the FAQs before launching is equivalent to PUMP and DUMP. It gives him an unfair advantage on how to trade/hold coins.

Bullshit in my book.

I have no obligation to release it months/years beforehand so copycats can jump on us. It's your problem if you can not fathom of all the difficulties a designer has to go through in order to bring something to the market. It's fair enough in my book ppcoin has no premine nor tax reserved for developers.

The programming job on ppcoin already cost around $100k-200k if you know what good programmers cost these days, this does not even include the innovations we bring forth which does not have a price on it.

So feel free to continue trolling. What have you done for cryptocurrency other than trashing other people's hard work?
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September 29, 2012, 08:16:56 PM
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Perhaps the creator could have taught us all how PPC worked before it launched. IMO him not disclosing all the details and answering all the FAQs before launching is equivalent to PUMP and DUMP. It gives him an unfair advantage on how to trade/hold coins.

Bullshit in my book.
The programming job on ppcoin already cost around $100k-200k if you know what good programmers cost these days, this does not even include the innovations we bring forth which does not have a price on it.
+1. Reminds me of the overall problem of the missing incentive system for cryptocurrency developers in the first place. I think pumping is all they can do, in order to get their investment back (time and effort). I don't see a development tax added to bitcoin transactions either. Instead the developers try different ways to get funding (e.g. creating a bitcoin foundation).

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September 29, 2012, 08:42:45 PM
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Perhaps the creator could have taught us all how PPC worked before it launched. IMO him not disclosing all the details and answering all the FAQs before launching is equivalent to PUMP and DUMP. It gives him an unfair advantage on how to trade/hold coins.

Bullshit in my book.

I have no obligation to release it months/years beforehand so copycats can jump on us. It's your problem if you can not fathom of all the difficulties a designer has to go through in order to bring something to the market. It's fair enough in my book ppcoin has no premine nor tax reserved for developers.

The programming job on ppcoin already cost around $100k-200k if you know what good programmers cost these days, this does not even include the innovations we bring forth which does not have a price on it.

So feel free to continue trolling. What have you done for cryptocurrency other than trashing other people's hard work?


1. You don't have an obligation to release it beforehand. But people will call it bullshit as it is. This is the same tactic that RealSolid/Coinhunter did with SC2. You're not special.

2. How would people know there is no tax unless they know how it works? The federal reserve doesn't believe inflation is a tax on the masses yet in REALITY it is a tax to those holding fiat.

3. I'm a software engineer myself and an IT person by trade. So unless you spent the last 2 years or so developing PPC at an average of 40 hours per week, you can't claim that you put $100k-$200k of effort into it. Stop overpricing your own labor costs for programming.

4. I will continue to troll as well as expose the bullshit which is PPC for what it is. Seriously? Hard work? How many hours have you put into PPC?

Trust me I'm not the only one calling PPC bullshit.

Edit: Looks like your account was only created last October so there is likely no way you have been developing PPC for 2 years in terms of senior software engineer's type salary figures.

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September 29, 2012, 09:02:50 PM
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1. You don't have an obligation to release it beforehand. But people will call it bullshit as it is. This is the same tactic that RealSolid/Coinhunter did with SC2. You're not special.
that is actually not accurate. ppcoin is the first cryptocurrency which actually innovates on top of the bitcoin protocol. And I am talking about REAL innovation (not just altering some parameters).

2. How would people know there is no tax unless they know how it works? The federal reserve doesn't believe inflation is a tax on the masses yet in REALITY it is a tax to those holding fiat.
Now I would be interested to hear about how bitcoin got promoted. I didn't get any mail including advertisement for the big bitcoin launch two months before it happened... no I was late to the party and had to be content with paying real money for bitcoins.

4. I will continue to troll as well as expose the bullshit which is PPC for what it is. Seriously? Hard work? How many hours have you put into PPC?
Please stay rational. If you say it's bullshit please explain yourself.

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September 29, 2012, 09:13:44 PM
 #22

1. You don't have an obligation to release it beforehand. But people will call it bullshit as it is. This is the same tactic that RealSolid/Coinhunter did with SC2. You're not special.
that is actually not accurate. ppcoin is the first cryptocurrency which actually innovates on top of the bitcoin protocol. And I am talking about REAL innovation (not just altering some parameters).

2. How would people know there is no tax unless they know how it works? The federal reserve doesn't believe inflation is a tax on the masses yet in REALITY it is a tax to those holding fiat.
Now I would be interested to hear about how bitcoin got promoted. I didn't get any mail including advertisement for the big bitcoin launch two months before it happened... no I was late to the party and had to be content with paying real money for bitcoins.

4. I will continue to troll as well as expose the bullshit which is PPC for what it is. Seriously? Hard work? How many hours have you put into PPC?
Please stay rational. If you say it's bullshit please explain yourself.

Here is an important question to defer all your diversion.......

How many PPC does Sunny King have? That should be a very interesting answer.

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September 29, 2012, 09:19:58 PM
 #23

Here is an important question to defer all your diversion.......

How many PPC does Sunny King have? That should be a very interesting answer.

Nothing you say is important or interesting... you're a troll...

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September 29, 2012, 09:34:46 PM
 #24

Here is an important question to defer all your diversion.......

How many PPC does Sunny King have? That should be a very interesting answer.

Nothing you say is important or interesting... you're a troll...

I'd say there are quite a few who do enjoy what I have to say. I call a spade a spade. When I see bullshit I will call it out.

Even when BCX started to act like a jerk and spouted bullshit I called it out, even though we got along for the most part.

Good job trying to divert from an important question.

HOW MANY PPC DOES SUNNY KING HAVE? RIGHT YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW! BUT I DO!

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September 29, 2012, 09:44:32 PM
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Here is an important question to defer all your diversion.......
How many PPC does Sunny King have? That should be a very interesting answer.
Why? Are you jealous? Since you're resilient to getting yourself informed I tell you that:
ppcoin is an inflationary cryptocurrency by design, in contrast to bitcoin which has a constant money supply. Thus in the long run, even if Sunny had a 2-3 million coin head start ( which he probably has ), it doesn't really matter.
3 years down the road, the money supply is likely to be around 100 million. Thus 2-3 is just 2-3%.

The real question is, why would anybody invest in an inflationary cryptocurrency? That's where the different network security model comes in. POS offers lower transaction fees in the long run because POS blocks do not require electricity, and thus ppcoin maybe a strong competitor to bitcoin based on transaction fees!

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September 29, 2012, 09:51:43 PM
 #26

HOW MANY PPC DOES SUNNY KING HAVE? RIGHT YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW! BUT I DO!

pff small penis ? try fontsize 72...

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September 29, 2012, 10:55:02 PM
 #27

Thus in the long run, even if Sunny had a 2-3 million coin head start ( which he probably has ), it doesn't really matter....

(REVISED)
I took the liberty and generated some stats for the money supply throughout the first 40 days. I started mining ppcoin around day 2. That's when super early adopters implemented the client software. After day 20 we saw the first major adoption. After 30 days we saw the first proof-of-stake blocks. BTW I had to contract the time constant with a factor 8 instead of 6. Thus the time to the next block is about 7.5mins instead of satoshis 10min. The reported blocktime was analyzed and used to correctly scale the time axis.

Presuming that the majority of the coins within the first 2 days were exclusively mined by Sunny, I presume he has about 2-3 million coins head start.

(old figure for reference: http://i47.tinypic.com/mtbhoi.png)


The first 2 days saw a dramatic time reduction. Day 1 consumed 7 days worth of blocks, day 2 consumed 4 days worth of blocks. After that the minting rate was equilibrated... Thus miners in the first 2 days had a significant advantage, with an efficiency factor of 7 during day 1, and an efficiency factor of 4 during day 2:

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September 29, 2012, 11:18:35 PM
 #28

So about the same premine as RUCoin then it seems.

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September 29, 2012, 11:35:13 PM
 #29

So about the same premine as RUCoin then it seems.

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Well that depends on what you define as premine.
For the majority of the world bitcoin has a 10 million coin premine on a 20 million money supply.

premine in the strict sense is the offset at x=0.

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September 30, 2012, 12:47:56 AM
 #30

I can tell you that I held ~30% of the network hashrate during the first couple of hours, roughly 10% after 2 days, then I stopped proof of work mining.
If Sunny has indeed mined ppcoin, he had to cope with a similarly high difficulty than everyone else had to, investing real hashrate into the coin instead of true premining. And even if he put lots of hashing power into it, he most certainly doesn't have more than 1-2 million coins, which is 10-20% of the coins existing today. (I'm holding about 2.5% these days.) In any case, he definitely didn't have a comparative advantage because of this.

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September 30, 2012, 03:20:25 AM
 #31

LOL smoothie, you sounded a bit desperate. I have no obligation to reveal how many coins I have, just like Satoshi has no obligation to reveal his.

If it's all about a tiny chance to make some money this project likely would never have even gotten started. I am sorry to tell you that I have means to support myself otherwise and I don't really need the wishful profit you are so jealous about on top of plenty political risk to run head-on into some governments. I am honored to work for the cause of liberty, and that's all that really motivated me to see this project released. My guess that's the same motivation Satoshi had as well, otherwise Bitcoin wouldn't be born either.

Let's make some peace and move on with life now  Wink
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September 30, 2012, 05:16:27 AM
 #32

BTC = 21 Million
LTC = 84 Million
SC = Up to the guy who made sc...

So what about PPCoin? Someone told me 2 billion but I kinda doubt it would be trading as high as it is if that were true. Please some one tell me the truth Smiley

Thanks.

Short answer: up to Moore's Law and Market participation.
Long answer: see our FAQ regarding cap of money supply.
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September 30, 2012, 05:33:50 AM
 #33

BTC = 21 Million
LTC = 84 Million
SC = Up to the guy who made sc...

So what about PPCoin? Someone told me 2 billion but I kinda doubt it would be trading as high as it is if that were true. Please some one tell me the truth Smiley

Thanks.

Short answer: up to Moore's Law and Market participation.
Long answer: see our FAQ regarding cap of money supply.

So maybe over 2 billion?    I think now is not the time to buy. I will wait for a year when many many more are out there.

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September 30, 2012, 08:32:15 AM
 #34

HOW MANY PPC DOES SUNNY KING HAVE? RIGHT YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW! BUT I DO!

pff small penis ? try fontsize 72...

This is starting to feel like the SC sockies again trying to divert attention away from an honest question which should be asked by investors of PPC.

Seriously that was your comeback? The penis joke? What are you in like kindergarten?

LOL you so fail.... Cheesy

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September 30, 2012, 08:36:31 AM
 #35

LOL smoothie, you sounded a bit desperate. I have no obligation to reveal how many coins I have, just like Satoshi has no obligation to reveal his.

If it's all about a tiny chance to make some money this project likely would never have even gotten started. I am sorry to tell you that I have means to support myself otherwise and I don't really need the wishful profit you are so jealous about on top of plenty political risk to run head-on into some governments. I am honored to work for the cause of liberty, and that's all that really motivated me to see this project released. My guess that's the same motivation Satoshi had as well, otherwise Bitcoin wouldn't be born either.

Let's make some peace and move on with life now  Wink

I like how you ignored my comment in retort to you claiming you spent $100k-$200k of time on PPC. Good job.

Moreso I never said you HAD to tell people your coin total. I merely said that people should start questioning it. Get your facts straight.

Seriously this is starting to smell like coinhunter all over again. Sockies, diverting attention, lol.


Even SERVER defended coinhunter and told me to go fuck myself because I was trying to get answers when SC was released or re-released (LOL).

Hey SERVER, keep with the penis jokes, it suits you. LOL

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September 30, 2012, 08:57:48 AM
 #36

Seriously this is starting to smell like coinhunter all over again...
Even SERVER defended coinhunter and told me to go fuck myself because I was trying to get answers when SC was released or re-released (LOL).
Well maybe Sunny is coinhunter Wink

BTW I didn't watch solidcoin closely. Why was it not able to compete in the long run?

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September 30, 2012, 09:24:35 AM
 #37

Seriously this is starting to smell like coinhunter all over again...
Even SERVER defended coinhunter and told me to go fuck myself because I was trying to get answers when SC was released or re-released (LOL).
Well maybe Sunny is coinhunter Wink

BTW I didn't watch solidcoin closely. Why was it not able to compete in the long run?


Maybe. LOL.

SC still exists in some distant cave/basement somewhere.

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September 30, 2012, 09:32:17 AM
 #38



HOW MANY PPC DOES SUNNY KING HAVE? RIGHT YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW! BUT I DO!



HOW MANY LTC DOES SMOOTHIE HAVE? RIGHT YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW! BUT I DO!

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September 30, 2012, 09:41:06 AM
 #39

Seriously this is starting to smell like coinhunter all over again...
Even SERVER defended coinhunter and told me to go fuck myself because I was trying to get answers when SC was released or re-released (LOL).
Well maybe Sunny is coinhunter Wink

BTW I didn't watch solidcoin closely. Why was it not able to compete in the long run?

I did wonder.

I don't think this is something I will get involved with after all.

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September 30, 2012, 09:45:37 AM
 #40

Well maybe Sunny is coinhunter Wink
I did wonder.
I don't think this is something I will get involved with after all.
Well, we may never know. And it doesn't matter. Judge ppcoin for the design it is - if there is a problem with the creator but the underlying design is good I suggest coming up with an alternative client. Same holds true for bitcoin.
Right know sunny is doing a good job though as far as I can tell.

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September 30, 2012, 10:19:25 AM
 #41

Well maybe Sunny is coinhunter Wink
I did wonder.
I don't think this is something I will get involved with after all.
Well, we may never know. And it doesn't matter. Judge ppcoin for the design it is - if there is a problem with the creator but the underlying design is good I suggest coming up with an alternative client. Same holds true for bitcoin.
Right know sunny is doing a good job though as far as I can tell.

+1
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September 30, 2012, 11:03:02 AM
 #42

Well maybe Sunny is coinhunter Wink
I did wonder.
I don't think this is something I will get involved with after all.
Well, we may never know. And it doesn't matter. Judge ppcoin for the design it is - if there is a problem with the creator but the underlying design is good I suggest coming up with an alternative client. Same holds true for bitcoin.
Right know sunny is doing a good job though as far as I can tell.

+1

+1

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September 30, 2012, 11:04:40 AM
 #43



HOW MANY PPC DOES SUNNY KING HAVE? RIGHT YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW! BUT I DO!



HOW MANY LTC DOES SMOOTHIE HAVE? RIGHT YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW! BUT I DO!



I have 0.01 LTC.

Waiting for the price to come down to get in. Is that straight enough for you?

Now back to my question:

HOW MANY PPC DOES SUNNY KING HAVE? RIGHT YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW! BUT I DO!

Edit: This truly does feel like a repeat of Solidcoin and CoinShitter. The PPC trolls have come out to defend their leader? lol...

It's a simple question I've asked that you all consider and perhaps even have Sunny King disclose it. I mean...even CoinHunter (in the early days of SC) told the community how many SC he had. Many can attest to this. So what's the problem? lol Cheesy

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September 30, 2012, 11:13:27 AM
 #44

Seriously this is starting to smell like coinhunter all over again...
Even SERVER defended coinhunter and told me to go fuck myself because I was trying to get answers when SC was released or re-released (LOL).
Well maybe Sunny is coinhunter Wink

BTW I didn't watch solidcoin closely. Why was it not able to compete in the long run?

I did wonder.

I don't think this is something I will get involved with after all.

+2,000,000,000 and maybe more?....

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September 30, 2012, 11:32:18 AM
 #45

The PPC trolls have come out to defend their leader? lol...
It's a simple question I've asked that you all consider and perhaps even have Sunny King disclose it. I mean...even CoinHunter (in the early days of SC) told the community how many SC he had. Many can attest to this. So what's the problem? lol Cheesy
I begin to understand why there's a flashy link below your name, saying IGNORE...
I gave you an estimate above. Thus, please answer me the following question:
What relevance does it have if Sunny held 2 million coins? I fail to see where you're going with this.

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September 30, 2012, 12:03:10 PM
 #46

How old are you guys ?

Lets keep this professional

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September 30, 2012, 12:20:54 PM
 #47

The PPC trolls have come out to defend their leader? lol...
It's a simple question I've asked that you all consider and perhaps even have Sunny King disclose it. I mean...even CoinHunter (in the early days of SC) told the community how many SC he had. Many can attest to this. So what's the problem? lol Cheesy
I begin to understand why there's a flashy link below your name, saying IGNORE...
I gave you an estimate above. Thus, please answer me the following question:
What relevance does it have if Sunny held 2 million coins? I fail to see where you're going with this.

Thank you for answering. Now let's see if Sunny King will answer.

The point being is if he holds a considerable percentage of total PPC for a period of time he could in essence pump and dump the shit out of PPC.


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September 30, 2012, 12:23:11 PM
 #48

How old are you guys ?

Lets keep this professional

Greater than 25 and less than 35.

Professional? For one we are on a public forum. That is not a requirement. Also I'm simply asking a question.

I made that pretty clear and thus have been trolled by supposed sockies.


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September 30, 2012, 12:37:41 PM
 #49

Thank you for answering. Now let's see if Sunny King will answer.
The point being is if he holds a considerable percentage of total PPC for a period of time he could in essence pump and dump the shit out of PPC.
but that holds for anyone else who is willing to buy 2 million coins off the market? Or you could just invest in mining right now and wait for 2-3 weeks for a significant amount and then try to pump&dump. I fail to see the connection to sunny.

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September 30, 2012, 12:55:49 PM
 #50

Well maybe Sunny is coinhunter Wink
I did wonder.
I don't think this is something I will get involved with after all.
Well, we may never know. And it doesn't matter. Judge ppcoin for the design it is - if there is a problem with the creator but the underlying design is good I suggest coming up with an alternative client. Same holds true for bitcoin.
Right know sunny is doing a good job though as far as I can tell.

I don't understand how this is better than BTC. It seems highly inflationary and unpredictable. If I wanted that I would just use fiat.

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September 30, 2012, 01:50:51 PM
 #51

I don't understand how this is better than BTC. It seems highly inflationary and unpredictable. If I wanted that I would just use fiat.
PPcoin introduces two aspects to the network security model I find interesting. 1) POS blocks. 2) Difficulty dependent POW rewards.
2) causes changes in the money supply growth as a function of POW participation. You can tell that from the "kinks" in the graph I posted earlier.. whenever the difficulty changed to a different plateau, the slope adjusts. So money supply development is pegged to POW difficulty. However, the ^4 dependence makes it extremely stable. If you want to change the mintrate by a factor of 10 you have to change difficulty by a factor of 10000.

Here's a clue: With the ASICs coming out next year, difficulty will increase 10-100 fold (the difficulty between different blockchain is arbitraged) within 2013. This means that the mintrate will likely drop by a factor of 2-4 (1000 to 500-250). Also, POS blocks only contribute 1% yearly to inflation. And they already account for a significant percentage of blocks. I think sunny stated that the target distribution should be around 25% POW, 75% POS, but that may have to be confirmed.  Hence, I expect the inflation rate to dramatically decrease within the next year. If the first-month rate corresponds to 70M per year, the projected rate will likely fall to 5-10 million per year.

ppcoin can be characterized as a more energy-efficient cryptocurrency. In the long run this should be reflected in transaction fees.

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September 30, 2012, 01:56:24 PM
 #52

I don't understand how this is better than BTC. It seems highly inflationary and unpredictable. If I wanted that I would just use fiat.

The mint design is not better than BTC, it's comparable. This is from FAQ:

Quote
Is there a cap on total money supply like Bitcoin's 21 million?

There is no hard cap other than a 2 billion coin max put into the code for now. But that should not be interpreted as an approachable cap, as it might never get anywhere close to that. It should not be considered a hard cap either as it may get lifted but that's likely not needed in a very very long time. Due to the nature of the mint rate design it's not possible to predict a final limit as it depends heavily on market participation, as well as the influences between proof-of-stake minting and fee destruction (there may not even be a mathematical limit if minting continues to outpace fee destruction). What we do know is that the proof-of-work minting would slow down exponentially according to Moore's Law (we are aware that Moore's Law eventually would stop to apply), and proof-of-stake minting introduces at most 1% annual inflation. So generally speaking it is still a very low future-inflation design comparable to Bitcoin.

In 0.2 release a 'moneysupply' stat is included in the getinfo output so everyone can see how many coins are in the market.

I designed this part so that it feels more beautiful/natural to my taste and doesn't involve fix time schedule and fixed cap, although downside is that some people will not feel confident with it's future inflation behavior. That's expected. I commented about Satoshi's mint rate design before and I think it is wise to have a fixed cap for a first cryptocurrency. For ppcoin I am experimenting and would  like to see how market responds to a comparable design without fixed cap.

Initially ppcoin inflation rate may drop faster than Bitcoin early stage due to dropping of mint per block. Another factor is that proof-of-work blocks are reduced (roughly from 10 minutes spacing to 30 minutes) while proof-of-stake blocks become frequent.

Above is my informed opinion but it's up to yourself to decide whether you are happy with its inflation prospects.
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September 30, 2012, 01:57:37 PM
 #53

I don't understand how this is better than BTC. It seems highly inflationary and unpredictable. If I wanted that I would just use fiat.
PPcoin introduces two aspects to the network security model I find interesting. 1) POS blocks. 2) Difficulty dependent POW rewards.
2) causes changes in the money supply growth as a function of POW participation. You can tell that from the "kinks" in the graph I posted earlier.. whenever the difficulty changed to a different plateau, the slope adjusts. So money supply development is pegged to POW difficulty. However, the ^4 dependence makes it extremely stable. If you want to change the mintrate by a factor of 10 you have to change difficulty by a factor of 10000.

Here's a clue: With the ASICs coming out next year, difficulty will increase 10-100 fold (the difficulty between different blockchain is arbitraged) within 2013. This means that the mintrate will likely drop by a factor of 2-4 (1000 to 500-250). Also, POS blocks only contribute 1% yearly to inflation. And they already account for a significant percentage of blocks. I think sunny stated that the target distribution should be around 25% POW, 75% POS, but that may have to be confirmed.  Hence, I expect the inflation rate to dramatically decrease within the next year. If they first-month rate corresponds to 70M per year, the projected rate will likely fall to 5-10 million per year.

ppcoin can be characterized as a more energy-efficient cryptocurrency. In the long run this should be reflected in transaction fees.



What really worries me is that there can be well over 2 billion ppcoins Sad

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September 30, 2012, 02:02:20 PM
 #54

What really worries me is that there can be well over 2 billion ppcoins Sad
yes. but you'll be long dead before that is reached. My guesstimate is 200 years.

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September 30, 2012, 02:09:23 PM
 #55

What really worries me is that there can be well over 2 billion ppcoins Sad
yes. but you'll be long dead before that is reached. My guesstimate is 200 years.

Hard to understand this coin. I might be wrong but I still see it as highly inflationary.

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September 30, 2012, 02:17:21 PM
 #56

Hard to understand this coin...
+1 Give it time. I usually take one aspect at a time and try to figure out what it means. Took me a few months to understand bitcoin either.

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September 30, 2012, 02:24:21 PM
 #57

Hard to understand this coin...
+1 Give it time. I usually take one aspect at a time and try to figure out what it means. Took me a few months to understand bitcoin either.

Well I and I doubt many others will invest in it until we understand that 2 billion coins is not inflationary.

What inflation rate will it be each year to go to 0 to 2 billion in 200 years?

hmm

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September 30, 2012, 02:32:21 PM
 #58

What really worries me is that there can be well over 2 billion ppcoins Sad

I think also that 2 billion coins are a lot, but this makes it possible to share the wealth more equally with a lot more people over a longer period.

(maybe this is a good thing with the asics in mind?)

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September 30, 2012, 02:37:40 PM
 #59

What inflation rate will it be each year to go to 0 to 2 billion in 200 years?
The simplest assumption is that the 1% inflation from stake is compensated by fee destruction and money loss. (thus you save yourself the compounding interest nightmare). Then you have only difficulty dependent infusion of new money. At 10million/year you get to the 2billion figure after 200years.

However, the above estimate is bullshit since there is apparently no data to back it up.
You might as well predict climate change.

ADDENDUM: bitcoin has similar problems in the other direction: the unknown parameters of money loss with time makes it hard to predict the amount of "accessible money"

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September 30, 2012, 02:55:53 PM
 #60

What inflation rate will it be each year to go to 0 to 2 billion in 200 years?
The simplest assumption is that the 1% inflation from stake is compensated by fee destruction and money loss. (thus you save yourself the compounding interest nightmare). Then you have only difficulty dependent infusion of new money. At 10million/year you get to the 2billion figure after 200years.

However, the above estimate is bullshit since there is apparently no data to back it up.
You might as well predict climate change.

ADDENDUM: bitcoin has similar problems in the other direction: the unknown parameters of money loss with time makes it hard to predict the amount of "accessible money"
Thanks for the info.

Are you one of the developers of PPC? you seem to be an expert.....
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September 30, 2012, 02:59:44 PM
 #61

Are you one of the developers of PPC? you seem to be an expert.....
Na Smiley Just an educated user. For now anyway.

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September 30, 2012, 09:47:52 PM
 #62

I don't understand how this is better than BTC. It seems highly inflationary and unpredictable. If I wanted that I would just use fiat.

The mint design is not better than BTC, it's comparable. This is from FAQ:

Quote
Is there a cap on total money supply like Bitcoin's 21 million?

There is no hard cap other than a 2 billion coin max put into the code for now. But that should not be interpreted as an approachable cap, as it might never get anywhere close to that. It should not be considered a hard cap either as it may get lifted but that's likely not needed in a very very long time. Due to the nature of the mint rate design it's not possible to predict a final limit as it depends heavily on market participation, as well as the influences between proof-of-stake minting and fee destruction (there may not even be a mathematical limit if minting continues to outpace fee destruction). What we do know is that the proof-of-work minting would slow down exponentially according to Moore's Law (we are aware that Moore's Law eventually would stop to apply), and proof-of-stake minting introduces at most 1% annual inflation. So generally speaking it is still a very low future-inflation design comparable to Bitcoin.

In 0.2 release a 'moneysupply' stat is included in the getinfo output so everyone can see how many coins are in the market.

I designed this part so that it feels more beautiful/natural to my taste and doesn't involve fix time schedule and fixed cap, although downside is that some people will not feel confident with it's future inflation behavior. That's expected. I commented about Satoshi's mint rate design before and I think it is wise to have a fixed cap for a first cryptocurrency. For ppcoin I am experimenting and would  like to see how market responds to a comparable design without fixed cap.

Initially ppcoin inflation rate may drop faster than Bitcoin early stage due to dropping of mint per block. Another factor is that proof-of-work blocks are reduced (roughly from 10 minutes spacing to 30 minutes) while proof-of-stake blocks become frequent.

Above is my informed opinion but it's up to yourself to decide whether you are happy with its inflation prospects.

Central bankers also say that 1-2% inflation per year is a good thing when it is really a tax on the current holders of their currency.


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September 30, 2012, 11:29:59 PM
 #63

Central bankers also say that 1-2% inflation per year is a good thing when it is really a tax on the current holders of their currency.
Well tax is not inherently bad. The question is for what purpose a tax is established. In fiat currencies, the inflation serves the issuer in the sense that they can overcompensate for the destruction of money.

The main point about a cryptocurrency is that the central issuer is removed. And thus people have a guarantee that no single entity can inflate their money and thus 'raise the tax'.

For ppcoin I am experimenting and would  like to see how market responds to a comparable design without fixed cap.
Sunny states that this also serves as an experiment with market acceptance.

As a matter of fact I would be surprised to see that the 1% from POS can compensate for money destruction. It's rather the new money which fuels inflation - and that goes down with time as the overall money supply increases and the difficulty rises (and thus the POW reward), similarly to the bitcoin money supply schedule.

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October 01, 2012, 02:10:25 AM
 #64

Seems like too many coins.  Easier to buy now than to mine IMO

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October 01, 2012, 02:16:38 AM
 #65

Seems like too many coins.  Easier to buy now than to mine IMO
I agree. POW mining efficiency takes a huge hit due to POS blocks. Would be nice to have a mining efficiency calculator for ppcoin, I don't know of any.

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October 01, 2012, 04:13:39 AM
 #66

Central bankers also say that 1-2% inflation per year is a good thing when it is really a tax on the current holders of their currency.
Well tax is not inherently bad. The question is for what purpose a tax is established. In fiat currencies, the inflation serves the issuer in the sense that they can overcompensate for the destruction of money.

The main point about a cryptocurrency is that the central issuer is removed. And thus people have a guarantee that no single entity can inflate their money and thus 'raise the tax'.

For ppcoin I am experimenting and would  like to see how market responds to a comparable design without fixed cap.
Sunny states that this also serves as an experiment with market acceptance.

As a matter of fact I would be surprised to see that the 1% from POS can compensate for money destruction. It's rather the new money which fuels inflation - and that goes down with time as the overall money supply increases and the difficulty rises (and thus the POW reward), similarly to the bitcoin money supply schedule.

The issuer could also be known as the designer. If the creator holds a huge sum then in essence any inflation due to POS is his issuance and he gets the coins first to spend into the overall total.

I don't see the point in "taxing" current holders/miners by inflating the supply via POS.

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October 01, 2012, 04:24:29 AM
 #67

The issuer could also be known as the designer. If the creator holds a huge sum then in essence any inflation due to POS is his issuance and he gets the coins first to spend into the overall total.
Any holding of a huge amount of coin is finite. The new money generated through POS is capped at 1% per year. This is very different from a license to print money. Also if the holder decides to liquidate in order to inflate the money, he is out of the game. It may take a while, but the market will recover.

I don't see the point in "taxing" current holders/miners by inflating the supply via POS.
Even though POS is very cheap, it's not free. The nodes still have to cover bandwidth costs, have computational resources and do transaction validation. Thus you HAVE to provide an incentive. And transaction fees are not an incentive, because they get destroyed in the process.

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October 01, 2012, 07:18:57 PM
 #68

Andy Rossy indicated that the mint and money supply graph earlier was off with respect to time scale. I now correctly analyzed the block times:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113919.msg1232228#msg1232228

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October 01, 2012, 08:07:56 PM
 #69

Andy Rossy indicated that the mint and money supply graph earlier was off with respect to time scale. I now correctly analyzed the block times:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113919.msg1232228#msg1232228

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October 01, 2012, 09:42:43 PM
 #70

Andy Rossy indicated that the mint and money supply graph earlier was off with respect to time scale. I now correctly analyzed the block times:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113919.msg1232228#msg1232228

proofofstake.com
nice! is it possible to split the mint daily into proof-of-stake and proof-of-work?

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October 01, 2012, 09:59:12 PM
 #71

Andy Rossy indicated that the mint and money supply graph earlier was off with respect to time scale. I now correctly analyzed the block times:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113919.msg1232228#msg1232228

proofofstake.com
nice! is it possible to split the mint daily into proof-of-stake and proof-of-work?

Yes, currently it's just PoW, will add another for PoS overlay at some point. Smiley
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October 01, 2012, 10:12:41 PM
 #72

Yes, currently it's just PoW, will add another for PoS overlay at some point. Smiley
I think it currently shows the average between POW and POS...

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October 01, 2012, 10:31:22 PM
 #73

Yes, currently it's just PoW, will add another for PoS overlay at some point. Smiley
I think it currently shows the average between POW and POS...

Aha, apologies, you're nearly right, it's the sum of PoW/PoS in the mint
And, in the difficulty, it's just PoW

Table has generation_time, mint, id.

Mint SQL:

Code:
my $sth = $dbh->prepare("select extract('epoch' from date_trunc('day', generation_time)) || '000' as date,sum(mint) as mint from block_history group by date_trunc('day', generation_time) order by date_trunc('day', generation_time)");
Difficulty SQL (hacky)

Code:
my $sth = $dbh->prepare("SELECT extract('epoch' from generation_time) || '000' as date, difficulty from block_history where id < 5000 or difficulty > 500 order by id ASC");

I'll look into it at the end of the week, I think 2 lines on the mint graph, separating PoW and PoS will be very nice too Smiley.


dishwara
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October 02, 2012, 08:39:18 AM
 #74

Any exchange for ppc?
AndyRossy
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October 02, 2012, 09:10:18 AM
 #75

Any exchange for ppc?


BitParking

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January 07, 2013, 12:12:01 AM
 #76

Exchange for PPC:

https://ppcexchange.bitparking.com
https://vircurex.com/
http://exchange.zapto.org/
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January 07, 2013, 12:16:50 AM
 #77

ppc is in testing phase of being added to btc-e
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January 07, 2013, 12:43:52 AM
 #78

BTC-e says that they will wait the PPC protocol update. It shoud be released in about 2 weeks.
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January 07, 2013, 01:04:18 AM
 #79

BTC-e says that they will wait the PPC protocol update. It shoud be released in about 2 weeks.

PPC to be added to BTC-E amazing looking forward to this

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January 07, 2013, 01:11:45 AM
 #80

BTC-e says that they will wait the PPC protocol update. It shoud be released in about 2 weeks.

Link?

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January 07, 2013, 01:23:51 AM
 #81

no link, but support has talked about it several times in trollbox, i have not heard they were waiting for an update, but it would make sense
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