Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[m3sSh3aD]

So you ordered pre-order hardware from a company with shitty history, non existent customer service and owners that are convicted felons and you are surprised you get scammed?

You're talking after the fact. It's obvious NOW.

Then you aren't trying to put the burden on the victims of the scam, right? The criminals are the ones 100% to blame, all the time.

And it was obvious to everyone who used there brains from December 2012, latest Feb 2013 for the slow people, that bfl and josh were scamming cockroaches. Which i say, and will stick to that If you ordered after this date, you need to start doing your research before you jump the gun and act like a fool! Its nothing personal, its just the truth.

People are falable, always but you can do something about it, like thinkingngor yourself instead of being a sheep!

And these forums will never mature, its a forum for 1, and 2, its a speculative thing is bitcoin, your never going get people to agree, but that's one of the beauties of life. Chaos theory ;-)

[sushi]

Why many people are selling these 500+ GH/S machines they just received in the box after 3-8 months of wait?

Almost all said, highly requested items and no one has them in stock for the immediate shipping. 

I see iPhone release day, many people bought it and sould the iphone 5S for more than they paid for due to the limited supplies.  Is it the same with the mining machines?  or just because the long wait made these machines not so profitable or to get the original investment cost returned not so possible?

[Wipeout2097]

So you ordered pre-order hardware from a company with shitty history, non existent customer service and owners that are convicted felons and you are surprised you get scammed?

You're talking after the fact. It's obvious NOW.

Then you aren't trying to put the burden on the victims of the scam, right? The criminals are the ones 100% to blame, all the time.

And it was obvious to everyone who used there brains from December 2012, latest Feb 2013 for the slow people, that bfl and josh were scamming cockroaches. Which i say, and will stick to that If you ordered after this date, you need to start doing your research before you jump the gun and act like a fool! Its nothing personal, its just the truth.

People are falable, always but you can do something about it, like thinkingngor yourself instead of being a sheep!

I didn't order anything.

The fact that people are naive does not justify scams. Then they do not have to do research on scams, that's the job of the police, regulators, etc...

Furthermore, the rhetoric of blaming the victim is getting old, to say the least. People should be ashamed of insisting on this crap, libertarian or not, wild-wild West or not ...

[Fiyasko]

FCC certification? NOPE!, Lied about that <-Illegal
PSU bricks exploding <-Can burn a house down
Quality Control is a joke <-Should be a top priority, but is practically Skipped
Refusal of Refunds <-Illegal
Forcing refunds upon outwardly disrespectful purchasers who have waited half a year for more delays <-Just wow
Failure to offer refunds <-Should cause a forced refund
Failure to issue refunds if the user fails to respond <-Should cause a forced refund
Constant false advertising <-Illegal, and they did this for eight months
False comparison stats on their site <-Horrible sportsmanship and potentially "not allowed"
Worst PR i've ever seen <-Get josh off PR
Communication with customer takes 2-3 weeks <-Should take 1-2 hours considering Bitcoins volatility
"All sales final no refunds" on a preorder for a product that has never been constructed <- Not legal
"All sales final" on pre-orders <- Not legal!
Paying the BBB to remove their F rating <-The BBB itself is a scam (Seriously), so not SO big of a deal

And yet the bitcoin forums are still allowing BFL to advertise here?!
Is it not that knowingly being an accessory to a crime and not doing something to prevent it makes you just as guilty?
Bitcointalk.org is practically in abidance and aiding BFL and thier illicit actions!

Anyone defending BFL should stop, Or give all their reasons why they still defend them so that we can debunk and shoot them down

[geeo]

Every week I come here and read about the bfl drama it is compelling reading some weeks

[charleshoskinson]

Just got my bfl miner thanks for the paperweight Josh.  It's more like a desk prop now where I can tell my employees about how not to run a business. Think of it as management art. We could do a whole series from poison aspirin to lead paint on kids toys.

[pontikis13]

+1 to BFL being a scam. Lies lies lies. Carrot on a stick approach. Just the thought that I gave 53 BTC to get a device that would make me no more than a couple BTC in it's entire life and I get to pay electricity for it to run as an added bonus frustrates me beyond belief...  Add to that that BFL didn't even include an invoice in the package and it got held up at customs for over 2 weeks in effect losing even more of its value. I have difficulty putting into words how much I hate you BFL. Really.

[VeeMiner]

Just got my bfl miner thanks for the paperweight Josh.  It's more like a desk prop now where I can tell my employees about how not to run a business. Think of it as management art. We could do a whole series from poison aspirin to lead paint on kids toys.

well right now it's questionable if it even pays to pay for the VAT (in my country 21%) to accept the device from the customs

[wtfvanity]

Just got my bfl miner thanks for the paperweight Josh.  It's more like a desk prop now where I can tell my employees about how not to run a business. Think of it as management art. We could do a whole series from poison aspirin to lead paint on kids toys.

well right now it's questionable if it even pays to pay for the VAT (in my country 21%) to accept the device from the customs

Ouch Power usage is so much higher than what was promised and makes the calculation that much worse.

[Katarina]

Just got my bfl miner thanks for the paperweight Josh.  It's more like a desk prop now where I can tell my employees about how not to run a business. Think of it as management art. We could do a whole series from poison aspirin to lead paint on kids toys.

well right now it's questionable if it even pays to pay for the VAT (in my country 21%) to accept the device from the customs

Ouch Power usage is so much higher than what was promised and makes the calculation that much worse.

What was the actual power usage and how much higher is it compare to what is promised?

[wtfvanity]

Just got my bfl miner thanks for the paperweight Josh.  It's more like a desk prop now where I can tell my employees about how not to run a business. Think of it as management art. We could do a whole series from poison aspirin to lead paint on kids toys.

well right now it's questionable if it even pays to pay for the VAT (in my country 21%) to accept the device from the customs

Ouch Power usage is so much higher than what was promised and makes the calculation that much worse.

What was the actual power usage and how much higher is it compare to what is promised?

From memory? A 5 ghs jalapeno was supposed to run from a USB port, 5 watts. If I'm not mistaking, it's about 50 watts. So about 10x more.

[charleshoskinson]

42 watts on mine. Might use it as a room heater

[Technoviking]

i actually considered mining once, but right now its just too damn crazy the level of difficulty and other stuff. I think its easier to speculate, like common forex.

[scambutterflylabs]

Re:  YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL

PayPal refused me a refund, usual 45 days rubbish, I did a chargeback for my first order and the credit card company put the money straight back into my account within about 5 days.

5 November 2013

I also did a chargeback through my bank some weeks back.  I would like to toss in the following additional info:

-- The bank immediately credited my account, but they made it clear that this was a courtesy and that the credit is not final until the accused seller responds.  In my case, they could take as long as two billing periods to respond.

-- When I went to Paypal two weeks later and checked the case status (cases were automatically opened when the chargeback occurred), the Paypal status showed "In review."

In other words, it may look like I have got the money but it is not official, Paypal is sitting on their hands "reviewing" the case, and it could be as long as two months until I know if I really have my money back.

In other world news (film at 11):

I also filed complaints with the FTC, the Kansas City BBB, the Kansas Attorney General's office, and the Johnson County District Attorney.  No response on any of those yet.

I have been down the small claims court path in the past, and my own experience is that it is much easier to sue the credit card company under FTC "claims and defenses" than it is to sue the seller.  In this case it is not clear to me whether the seller is Paypal or BFL, since the credit card transaction was paid to Paypal and not BFL.  Perhaps someone with more legal knowledge can clear that up.

If the seller is Paypal, they have legal staff who do their utmost to avoid paying (though there is a wealth of info about how to sue Paypal and win; google it).

If the seller is BFL, collecting on the judgement could be extremely difficult, since the judgement would have to be exported to Kansas and sent to collections there -- and it is not clear that BFL has a financial leg to file a lien against.

If you have to sue your credit card company or Paypal, never sign a "general release."  This frees them from any obligations to you whether past, present or future.  Tell them you will sign a specific release.  And don't sign any confidentiality agreements.  If you win a judgement, you are in the right and they must pay, and cannot put conditions on that payment.

Update 7 Nov 2013

The Paypal status on the chargebacks changed from "In review" to "Closed."  There was no direct indication of whether it was closed by accepting or rejecting the chargeback.  After clicking around a bit, clicking on the "Closed" status produced "There was insufficient evidence to dispute the chargeback", which I take to mean "He's right but we don't like to admit it."

I can imagine the happiness at Paypal HQ when it becomes general knowledge among BFL customers that Paypal actually is eating BFL chargebacks.  Then the chargebacks will really start rolling in.  It would be interesting to know how Paypal will try to get that money back from BFL.  Well, better them doing it than me.

Addendum:  I just checked the order status at BFL, and both of them show "canceled." (sic).  So they do actually know the word, even if they can't spell it.

[bitbryan]

got my jallly

[m3sSh3aD]

So you ordered pre-order hardware from a company with shitty history, non existent customer service and owners that are convicted felons and you are surprised you get scammed?

You're talking after the fact. It's obvious NOW.

Then you aren't trying to put the burden on the victims of the scam, right? The criminals are the ones 100% to blame, all the time.

And it was obvious to everyone who used there brains from December 2012, latest Feb 2013 for the slow people, that bfl and josh were scamming cockroaches. Which i say, and will stick to that If you ordered after this date, you need to start doing your research before you jump the gun and act like a fool! Its nothing personal, its just the truth.

People are falable, always but you can do something about it, like thinkingngor yourself instead of being a sheep!

I didn't order anything.

The fact that people are naive does not justify scams. Then they do not have to do research on scams, that's the job of the police, regulators, etc...

Furthermore, the rhetoric of blaming the victim is getting old, to say the least. People should be ashamed of insisting on this crap, libertarian or not, wild-wild West or not ...

Your statement suggests that I was saying scams are fine because people are stupid. The only stupid person is you thinking that anything of that sort. I have given my condolences to people in the past but that doesn't change the facts here. If you ordered after march, you really need to work on your research techniques and use some of those brain cells. People want to be spoke to nice all the time but that's what leads us into the world we have today! Security over freedom and getting sweet fa for it.... We were warned about this! Critical thinking/critical advice is paramount to being better at what you do. When people put people on pedestals (think education system, actors/artists, CEO etc etc) these people believe all the hype that comes with been 'given& such status. Life is fluid and expansive and we have so much to learn still, open your mind, take advice, weather good or bad on the chin and learn from it. Stop being persumtuious and experience life and what it can offer!

In conclusion, criticism, mild to harsh is essential for learning and progression! Simples

Oh yes, josh is one of the scummiest people ever to grace this planet. He is the lowest of low life cockroaches! He personally as a mind that gives no thought of anything but himself! Bring back the guillitene..... Oh yes, department of homeland security just brought 50,000 didn't they.... For the FEMA camps! Scum like josh will probably dodge it and it will be the good people that suffer, as history as shown time and time again

[SimpleStevie]

Hey everyone, just to add my 2 cents. Ordered my Jalapeno back in March, finally arrived last week! It's happily churning away as we speak, no where near the ROI I was hoping for when I ordered it but hey ho..you live and learn. Thankfully I don't pay for my electricity bills so it's just sitting there making me (granted very small amounts of) money

The recent price rises have piqued my interest somewhat and I think I'll be moving away from mining and towards trading. Apologies, I've wandered off topic, my attitude to the whole BFL thing 'Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me'

[wtfvanity]

Hey everyone, just to add my 2 cents. Ordered my Jalapeno back in March, finally arrived last week! It's happily churning away as we speak, no where near the ROI I was hoping for when I ordered it but hey ho..you live and learn. Thankfully I don't pay for my electricity bills so it's just sitting there making me (granted very small amounts of) money

The recent price rises have piqued my interest somewhat and I think I'll be moving away from mining and towards trading. Apologies, I've wandered off topic, my attitude to the whole BFL thing 'Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me'

Without electricity, hopefully your jalapeno will generate you about .5 btc over the next 12 months. At $500 a coin, you'll be even in a year. Hopefully you didn't pay with BTC ouch.

[Wipeout2097]

So you ordered pre-order hardware from a company with shitty history, non existent customer service and owners that are convicted felons and you are surprised you get scammed?

You're talking after the fact. It's obvious NOW.

Then you aren't trying to put the burden on the victims of the scam, right? The criminals are the ones 100% to blame, all the time.

And it was obvious to everyone who used there brains from December 2012, latest Feb 2013 for the slow people, that bfl and josh were scamming cockroaches. Which i say, and will stick to that If you ordered after this date, you need to start doing your research before you jump the gun and act like a fool! Its nothing personal, its just the truth.

People are falable, always but you can do something about it, like thinkingngor yourself instead of being a sheep!

I didn't order anything.

The fact that people are naive does not justify scams. Then they do not have to do research on scams, that's the job of the police, regulators, etc...

Furthermore, the rhetoric of blaming the victim is getting old, to say the least. People should be ashamed of insisting on this crap, libertarian or not, wild-wild West or not ...

Your statement suggests that I was saying scams are fine because people are stupid. The only stupid person is you thinking that anything of that sort. I have given my condolences to people in the past but that doesn't change the facts here. If you ordered after march, you really need to work on your research techniques and use some of those brain cells. People want to be spoke to nice all the time but that's what leads us into the world we have today! Security over freedom and getting sweet fa for it.... We were warned about this! Critical thinking/critical advice is paramount to being better at what you do. When people put people on pedestals (think education system, actors/artists, CEO etc etc) these people believe all the hype that comes with been 'given& such status. Life is fluid and expansive and we have so much to learn still, open your mind, take advice, weather good or bad on the chin and learn from it. Stop being persumtuious and experience life and what it can offer!

In conclusion, criticism, mild to harsh is essential for learning and progression! Simples

Oh yes, josh is one of the scummiest people ever to grace this planet. He is the lowest of low life cockroaches! He personally as a mind that gives no thought of anything but himself! Bring back the guillitene..... Oh yes, department of homeland security just brought 50,000 didn't they.... For the FEMA camps! Scum like josh will probably dodge it and it will be the good people that suffer, as history as shown time and time again

Do you have trouble understanding stuff or do you tend to rush to conclusions?

No, I'm not saying you mean that "scamming is ok because people are stupid". What you and the other poster are implying is that people are to blame for being scammed by a company. Am I wrong? No, I don't think so.

I'm not even going to try to counter-argue the rest of your U.S. centric tirade. Just to say that consumer protection rules work differently elsewhere...

[Oblivion]

Oh well.. I understand people being frustrated. And true.. promises were made and products were only delivered way too late.