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Author Topic: Does Bitcoin need a new theory of money?  (Read 3479 times)
redsn0w
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August 05, 2015, 11:06:50 PM
 #21

The days of government-controlled ‘money’ are over. In the 21st century, you are the controller of your own money. Since the dawn of civilization, the use of a local currency has turned into a tradition. People used to trade physical tokens and objects among them, but now they can use digital currency. You are free from any government regulation and fees. It is a currency made by the people, belonging to the people and for the people.



Can I ask you where do you live? Maybe not the Earth... you are so idealist. It should pass a lot of years before a real change, at the moment we are only in a sort of experiment (and it is not still completed).
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August 06, 2015, 11:54:29 AM
 #22

The days of government-controlled ‘money’ are over. In the 21st century, you are the controller of your own money. Since the dawn of civilization, the use of a local currency has turned into a tradition. People used to trade physical tokens and objects among them, but now they can use digital currency. You are free from any government regulation and fees. It is a currency made by the people, belonging to the people and for the people.
The government wont let it happens if bitcoin bother its country economy or the taxes government get is decreased. There is no place where we are really free from government regulations. It will only happens if there is no government or country, or you could make your own country with the other bitcoin enthusiasts like Liberland.


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greBit
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August 06, 2015, 12:00:41 PM
 #23

The days of government-controlled ‘money’ are over. In the 21st century, you are the controller of your own money. Since the dawn of civilization, the use of a local currency has turned into a tradition. People used to trade physical tokens and objects among them, but now they can use digital currency. You are free from any government regulation and fees. It is a currency made by the people, belonging to the people and for the people.
The government wont let it happens if bitcoin bother its country economy or the taxes government get is decreased. There is no place where we are really free from government regulations. It will only happens if there is no government or country, or you could make your own country with the other bitcoin enthusiasts like Liberland.

People often feel that using bitcoins is an escape from avoiding tax, but if two parties are caught in money laundering, they will be jailed.. Bitcoin also requires tax payments, its treated as capital tax. I have very less knowledge about it because I have not yet involved myself in such practices, but I would like to know about it. If someone knows more, knowledge is welcomed. As far as Liberland goes, only 7 people live on it bro Tongue
HarHarHar9965
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August 06, 2015, 02:06:25 PM
 #24

The days of government-controlled ‘money’ are over. In the 21st century, you are the controller of your own money. Since the dawn of civilization, the use of a local currency has turned into a tradition. People used to trade physical tokens and objects among them, but now they can use digital currency. You are free from any government regulation and fees. It is a currency made by the people, belonging to the people and for the people.
The government wont let it happens if bitcoin bother its country economy or the taxes government get is decreased. There is no place where we are really free from government regulations. It will only happens if there is no government or country, or you could make your own country with the other bitcoin enthusiasts like Liberland.

People often feel that using bitcoins is an escape from avoiding tax, but if two parties are caught in money laundering, they will be jailed.. Bitcoin also requires tax payments, its treated as capital tax. I have very less knowledge about it because I have not yet involved myself in such practices, but I would like to know about it. If someone knows more, knowledge is welcomed. As far as Liberland goes, only 7 people live on it bro Tongue

If you have a bitcoin with a value of 200$ which over a span of 2 years changes to 2000$, your assets will notice capital gains and be taxed accordingly. There is more detailed information provided, ofcourse rules and regulations might differ in different countries. More knowledge could be acquired over here: https://bitcoin.tax/faq To calculate taxes, use a bitcoin tax calculator: https://bitcoin.tax/
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August 06, 2015, 07:01:22 PM
 #25

People often feel that using bitcoins is an escape from avoiding tax, but if two parties are caught in money laundering, they will be jailed..
Every bad deeds always get punishment, thats the absolute law in this world.

Bitcoin also requires tax payments, its treated as capital tax.
Yeah but atleast the tax is not high imo

I have very less knowledge about it because I have not yet involved myself in such practices, but I would like to know about it.
Me too, thats the purpose of the discussion, where we can share or learn anything here  Cheesy
 
If someone knows more, knowledge is welcomed.
I think you could read this https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tax_compliance

As far as Liberland goes, only 7 people live on it bro Tongue
Yeah and the president are being arrested by Croatia government. Seems bitcoin still couldnt get rave by some country.


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August 07, 2015, 03:15:57 AM
 #26

People often feel that using bitcoins is an escape from avoiding tax, but if two parties are caught in money laundering, they will be jailed..
Every bad deeds always get punishment, thats the absolute law in this world.

Bitcoin also requires tax payments, its treated as capital tax.
Yeah but atleast the tax is not high imo

I have very less knowledge about it because I have not yet involved myself in such practices, but I would like to know about it.
Me too, thats the purpose of the discussion, where we can share or learn anything here  Cheesy
 
If someone knows more, knowledge is welcomed.
I think you could read this https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Tax_compliance

As far as Liberland goes, only 7 people live on it bro Tongue
Yeah and the president are being arrested by Croatia government. Seems bitcoin still couldnt get rave by some country.


Quoting everyline is really irritating, pls stop. You're being delusional by saying that every bad deed always gets a punishment, there are more than a million criminals in this world who have got away with horrendous crimes, money laundering being one of the most insignificant ones. Its not like the tax is not high, it depends on how much you've made when your capital interests has increased. The more tax, the more you gain.
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August 07, 2015, 10:46:11 AM
 #27

Quoting everyline is really irritating, pls stop.
Its weird, I think its neater, and answering per line looks systematically. Thanks for your advice, but each person have their own writing style.  Wink

You're being delusional by saying that every bad deed always gets a punishment, there are more than a million criminals in this world who have got away with horrendous crimes, money laundering being one of the most insignificant ones.
You are the delusional person. Do you think 'punishment' is just be arrested by police? There are many kind of punishment, you should learn psychology.

Its not like the tax is not high, it depends on how much you've made when your capital interests has increased. The more tax, the more you gain.
I just compared the taxes in bitcoin with the taxes by government. Dont you think the taxes by government are higher than in bitcoin?


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August 07, 2015, 04:38:59 PM
 #28

Yes. This theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_equation
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August 07, 2015, 04:49:59 PM
 #29

Quoting everyline is really irritating, pls stop.
Its weird, I think its neater, and answering per line looks systematically. Thanks for your advice, but each person have their own writing style.  Wink

You're being delusional by saying that every bad deed always gets a punishment, there are more than a million criminals in this world who have got away with horrendous crimes, money laundering being one of the most insignificant ones.
You are the delusional person. Do you think 'punishment' is just be arrested by police? There are many kind of punishment, you should learn psychology.

Its not like the tax is not high, it depends on how much you've made when your capital interests has increased. The more tax, the more you gain.
I just compared the taxes in bitcoin with the taxes by government. Dont you think the taxes by government are higher than in bitcoin?

You are really started to get on my nerves now, bro. Why do you not shut up when you have nothing better to say? If punishments are not legal and according to your psychology, karma will settle its deeds with me, awesome. Greece will say the same to eurozone that their debts will be settled by karma. The taxes Miracal was talking about, were the taxes government implies on bitcoin, you have no idea what capital gains mean and anything about economy, yet you lie about comparing taxes and shit. Grow up dude, its 2k15.
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August 08, 2015, 02:17:40 AM
 #30

Actually I'm working on one:

Because of money's universal exchangability, everyone's demand for money can be regarded as all his current and future demand added together, almost infinite. And for bitcoin, supply is limited, so mathematically, infinite demand and limited supply will make its value infinite

However, everyone have limited resource to exchange money, having infinite demand does not mean people have infinite resource to pay for it. Thus bitcoin will never have infinite value, even the supply is limited. Thus bitcoin's value is depend on total number of people who are willing to exchange bitcoin with their products/services/capital

Imagine that many bitcoiners are professional house maker and they are willing to exchange one house for one bitcoin, then the coin's value will be raised to be the same as a house

A good thing is that people could always purchase bitcoin, so if their goods/services/assets can not be easily exchanged to bitcoin, they can simply sell them for fiat money and purchase bitcoin, similar effect on bitcoin's value

Fiat money does not have the same property,  because it has theoretically infinite supply. When infinite demand meets infinite supply, the result is very uncertain, thus FED constantly change the money supply to keep its value stable. Anyway, stable value is the target of fiat money

So for bitcoin the theory of money is :  As long as its economy grows, there is no upper limit for its value

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August 08, 2015, 08:41:13 AM
 #31

So for bitcoin the theory of money is :  As long as its economy grows, there is no upper limit for its value

Wait till banks and fractional reserve banking come to Bitcoin. The limited supply won't look very limited after all. Smiley
People used gold as money for a long time... Until bank notes backed by gold started circulating. We all know where that ended.

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August 08, 2015, 12:42:49 PM
 #32

So for bitcoin the theory of money is :  As long as its economy grows, there is no upper limit for its value

Wait till banks and fractional reserve banking come to Bitcoin. The limited supply won't look very limited after all. Smiley
People used gold as money for a long time... Until bank notes backed by gold started circulating. We all know where that ended.

I guess nowadays people are much more aware of bank's tricks than hundreds of years ago

MTGOX was using FRB, and it failed dragging down all its depositors (In fact exchanges are more complicated financial institutions than banks, since they deal with multiple currencies at the same time while banks typically deal with only one type of currency). That will be a lesson for all the bitcoiners who trust centralized organization. Unlike fiat money system, there is definitely no bailout for bitcoin banks, the bank failure rate will be too high for normal people to trust them, it is much easier for them to learn some cold storage skill


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August 08, 2015, 03:46:07 PM
 #33

So for bitcoin the theory of money is :  As long as its economy grows, there is no upper limit for its value

Wait till banks and fractional reserve banking come to Bitcoin. The limited supply won't look very limited after all. Smiley
People used gold as money for a long time... Until bank notes backed by gold started circulating. We all know where that ended.

I guess nowadays people are much more aware of bank's tricks than hundreds of years ago

MTGOX was using FRB, and it failed dragging down all its depositors (In fact exchanges are more complicated financial institutions than banks, since they deal with multiple currencies at the same time while banks typically deal with only one type of currency). That will be a lesson for all the bitcoiners who trust centralized organization. Unlike fiat money system, there is definitely no bailout for bitcoin banks, the bank failure rate will be too high for normal people to trust them, it is much easier for them to learn some cold storage skill



yeah, the whole point of having bitcoin is that it gives you the power of being your own bank, then there is no point discussing bailouts on a bitcoin bank. But yes if such an even occurs, I can see how the failure rate would be super high for an average citizen to really believe in them, and cold storage skills would be much required.
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August 08, 2015, 04:05:38 PM
 #34

You are really started to get on my nerves now, bro. Why do you not shut up when you have nothing better to say? If punishments are not legal and according to your psychology, karma will settle its deeds with me, awesome. Greece will say the same to eurozone that their debts will be settled by karma. The taxes Miracal was talking about, were the taxes government implies on bitcoin, you have no idea what capital gains mean and anything about economy, yet you lie about comparing taxes and shit. Grow up dude, its 2k15.
Why should I lie to you? Let me explain this, I just tell you what I have heard and read, so you can refute my opinion with your opinion too, so you all could teach me what you know with your knowledge. It sounds you're an expert in economy. Good luck!


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davido
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August 08, 2015, 06:41:39 PM
 #35

So my take on this is that we do need a new theory of money, based on the idea that money is fundamentally dualistic, with real/virtual properties that both complement and contradict one another, rather like the wave/particle properties of matter in quantum physics. The theory works well for cybercurrencies because it explains how a currency can boot itself up and attain value without being backed either by precious metal or the state.

Here's the abstract:
A quantum theory of money and value
The answer to the question “what is money?” has changed throughout history. During the gold standard era, money was seen as gold or silver (the theory known as bullionism). In the early 20th century, the alternative theory known as chartalism proposed that money was a token chosen by the state for payment of taxes. Today, many economists take an agnostic line, and argue that money is best defined in terms of its function, e.g. as a neutral medium of exchange. This paper argues that none of these approaches adequately describe the nature of money, and proposes a new theory, inspired by non-Newtonian physics, which takes into account the dualistic real/virtual properties and complex nature of money. The theory is applied to the example of the emergence of cybercurrencies.

The full paper is here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2624371
tommorisonwebdesign
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August 08, 2015, 07:11:16 PM
 #36

I don't think Bitcoin needs a really new theory of money. It's a new currency and technology. It is backed by the number of people using it and the finite supply of Bitcoins that can be mined. As people catch on to what bitcoin is, there will be more merchants accepting it.

Signatures? How about learning a skill... I don't care either way. Everybody has to make a living somehow.
HarHarHar9965
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August 09, 2015, 12:46:54 AM
 #37

You are really started to get on my nerves now, bro. Why do you not shut up when you have nothing better to say? If punishments are not legal and according to your psychology, karma will settle its deeds with me, awesome. Greece will say the same to eurozone that their debts will be settled by karma. The taxes Miracal was talking about, were the taxes government implies on bitcoin, you have no idea what capital gains mean and anything about economy, yet you lie about comparing taxes and shit. Grow up dude, its 2k15.
Why should I lie to you? Let me explain this, I just tell you what I have heard and read, so you can refute my opinion with your opinion too, so you all could teach me what you know with your knowledge. It sounds you're an expert in economy. Good luck!

Don't worry falconer, go prove him wrong and reply back with your theory, research and study of your theory in which you compared taxes. The best way to shut up somebody is to prove them wrong, but it might get a little a little too time consuming so I hope you hurry up soon. Meanwhile me and grebit will just wait somewhere, nearby this thread Smiley
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August 09, 2015, 03:50:07 AM
 #38

So for bitcoin the theory of money is :  As long as its economy grows, there is no upper limit for its value

Wait till banks and fractional reserve banking come to Bitcoin. The limited supply won't look very limited after all. Smiley
People used gold as money for a long time... Until bank notes backed by gold started circulating. We all know where that ended.

I guess nowadays people are much more aware of bank's tricks than hundreds of years ago

MTGOX was using FRB, and it failed dragging down all its depositors (In fact exchanges are more complicated financial institutions than banks, since they deal with multiple currencies at the same time while banks typically deal with only one type of currency). That will be a lesson for all the bitcoiners who trust centralized organization. Unlike fiat money system, there is definitely no bailout for bitcoin banks, the bank failure rate will be too high for normal people to trust them, it is much easier for them to learn some cold storage skill

Cold storage and security measures are one thing. People might turn greedy.
If banks offer interest on bitcoin deposits, people might still be tempted to part with their money.
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August 09, 2015, 05:14:16 AM
 #39

So for bitcoin the theory of money is :  As long as its economy grows, there is no upper limit for its value

Wait till banks and fractional reserve banking come to Bitcoin. The limited supply won't look very limited after all. Smiley
People used gold as money for a long time... Until bank notes backed by gold started circulating. We all know where that ended.

I guess nowadays people are much more aware of bank's tricks than hundreds of years ago

MTGOX was using FRB, and it failed dragging down all its depositors (In fact exchanges are more complicated financial institutions than banks, since they deal with multiple currencies at the same time while banks typically deal with only one type of currency). That will be a lesson for all the bitcoiners who trust centralized organization. Unlike fiat money system, there is definitely no bailout for bitcoin banks, the bank failure rate will be too high for normal people to trust them, it is much easier for them to learn some cold storage skill

Cold storage and security measures are one thing. People might turn greedy.
If banks offer interest on bitcoin deposits, people might still be tempted to part with their money.

yeah, not everybody in the bitcoin community is as passionate about the technology as they are about money. In a scenario where the governments decide to ban bitcoin but in a hypothetical situation where half the world sides for bitcoin and invest all of it into bitcoin and half the world scared from the banks, the result of bitcoin's failure or success would be known the next day... Who would you pick in such a situation?
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August 09, 2015, 05:25:27 AM
 #40

i like a  lot that chart but money its time too and that does not changes like money  can also buy a bit of health and be even life (living for money) yes we also need to keep doing that.

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