Bitcoin Forum
May 20, 2022, 11:57:37 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 23.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: "Pseudo anonymous"  (Read 6474 times)
SeeBettor
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 24
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 06, 2015, 09:59:54 PM
 #1

"Pseudo anonymous" as it relates to cryptocurrency seems a silly term to me. We might not see it right in front of us now, but in a future world that uses crypto as accepted day-to-day currency, the idea that full-financial-transparency would be accepted and adopted widely... It just seems absurd to me.

It's reasonable right now, it kind-of works at the level of transactions that Bitcoin is currently used for, and it works because of the lack of useful tools widely available to view transaction records. But the future would have websites where anyone could lookup anyone elses full transaction history, their entire spending and earning life.

The only "pseudo" part about it right now is there because of the lack of tools currently made available. But a coin will either be anonymous or transparent (or the option to choose one or the other per-transaction); no in-between. Is that not a correct statement?

The "mixing" solution is just a work-around.

Is there really the need to explain all the reasons why a world where every person, every business, every transaction in the world is made available to public view would just never work, never be widely accepted and adopted? It has nothing to do with enabling criminal activity. It has a lot to do with disabling the ability for the criminal to acquire targets.

Currently, our fiat transactions, aside from physical cash-to-hand, they are "kind-of" safeguarded by the centralized banking system, in-terms of some level of anonymity. You can't walk into the bank and ask the teller to show you your neighbor's financial transactions of last week. In the de-centralized dream many of us hope for, there will be no central authority to keep some necessary level of privacy. Anonymity must be built-in to the currency.

Sure this might sound like some pro-alt-coin rant, sure this idea was prompted by reading about some alt-coin features; but I'm not here to promote anything or bash Bitcoin. I don't have enough understanding of everything out there to convince myself they're not all scam pump-n-dump schemes, so I stay away. But, for months, I've been constantly thinking about what might be wrong with Bitcoin, why might it fail, what will it take to be adopted more widely? I want it to all be great and good and the future. I worry about the centralized mining concern. I try to educate myself on these type of potential walls that the technology might run into. Convince me why I shouldn't be concerned about lack of anonymity.
1653047857
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1653047857

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1653047857
Reply with quote  #2

1653047857
Report to moderator
1653047857
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1653047857

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1653047857
Reply with quote  #2

1653047857
Report to moderator
1653047857
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1653047857

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1653047857
Reply with quote  #2

1653047857
Report to moderator
Bitcoin Layer Two Wallet with CoinSwaps Privacy
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1653047857
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1653047857

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1653047857
Reply with quote  #2

1653047857
Report to moderator
1653047857
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1653047857

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1653047857
Reply with quote  #2

1653047857
Report to moderator
1653047857
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1653047857

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1653047857
Reply with quote  #2

1653047857
Report to moderator
manselr
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 868
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 06, 2015, 10:33:36 PM
 #2

You are right and thats why gmaxwell is working on stuff such as confidential transactions that obfuscate the amount of money you are sending. Sure it's not full anonymity, but it's an improvement. We also can hope that Amir ever continues working in Darkwallet.
But overall I agree, I don't want to live in a world where a public global ledger is available for anyone to spy on your finances. But at the same time, we need regulation if we want to be mainstream (assuming a cryptocurrency cannot reach mainstream usage without regulation from governments).
The question is, where is the cutoff? how much to give in in favour of hopes that regulation gets us on the mainstream? where are the limits on how much anonimity is needed? who draws those limits? so many questions.
countryfree
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2828
Merit: 1045

Your country may be your worst enemy


View Profile
August 06, 2015, 10:40:28 PM
 #3

because of the lack of useful tools widely available to view transaction records. But the future would have websites where anyone could lookup anyone elses full transaction history, their entire spending and earning life.

This already exists, don't you know? There are blockexplorer and blockchain.info. True, they're nameless, but once you get used to them, you just need to know an address as a starting point, and you can follow the money.

If you're looking for a trading/lending place, better avoid Poloniex, as it socializes losses. Learn more about it on this topic.
OROBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2436
Merit: 1369



View Profile
August 06, 2015, 10:52:59 PM
 #4

...

Someone here at bitcointalk a few days ago posted the below interesting link (note ".co", not ".com"):

http://coinalytics.co/tools/tracker.html

I used this to track one of my wallets, my most "public" one.    Try it out on one of your addresses!
acquafredda
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1316
Merit: 1480



View Profile
August 06, 2015, 10:59:49 PM
 #5

Whatever you said resonates with what I think and what I fear the most.
The only thing is that, for the moment, Bitcoin started free and indipendent.
The day someone else or something else will force to accept some kind of cryptocurrency whatever we'll do with our money will be tracked from source to ending point.

This is scary but this is possible.

As for now, it's still possible to be stealth with BTC.

But tomorrow? that we don't know.

...

Someone here at bitcointalk a few days ago posted the below interesting link (note ".co", not ".com"):

http://coinalytics.co/tools/tracker.html

I used this to track one of my wallets, my most "public" one.    Try it out on one of your addresses!
This is incredible.
seedtrue
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 964
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 06, 2015, 11:24:50 PM
 #6

There are ways to go about it if you want at least some level of anonymity. But for other things, there is really no need. If I buy a pizza with some bitcoin, I really do not care who can or will track it. It is the same with fiat, if I want to buy something that no one will know about I can just use cash. If I buy something I don't care who knows, I can use my credit or debit card.
misterycoins
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 250
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 06, 2015, 11:48:46 PM
 #7

bitcoin's lack of anonymity is a real issue. now imagine my salary is being paid in bitcoin, and I have a bitcoin bank account I certainly don't want that information public. This does need to be solved  and made easy to use for the average joe
smiletyson
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 644
Merit: 503


Blockchain with solar energy


View Profile
August 06, 2015, 11:50:52 PM
 #8

bitcoin's lack of anonymity is a real issue. now imagine my salary is being paid in bitcoin, and I have a bitcoin bank account I certainly don't want that information public. This does need to be solved  and made easy to use for the average joe
No it's not.
Bitcoin is running on a "PUBLIC LEDGER". Anyone can track any tx on blockchain. If you want to stay anonymous then you should get paid in CASH.

[]
▄▄▄████████▄▄▄
▄▄██████████████████▄▄
▄████████████████████████▄
▄███████▀               █████▄
▄██████▀       ▀███████   █████▄
▄█████▀  ▄    █▄   ▀██▀  ▄  █████▄
████▀  ▄██  █  ███▄    ▄███  █████
▄███  ▄████ ███  ██▀     ▀███  ████▄
███         ▀███    ▄███▄   ▀█  ████
███  ████▄            ▀▀▀██▄     ███
████  ████ ████▀    █▄▄▄         ███
▀████  ██  ██▀  ▄██  ███▀▀      ███▀
█████  █  ▀  ▄████▀    ▄██▀  ▄████
▀█████     ▄█▀▀    ▄  ██▀  ▄█████▀
▀█████       ▄▄█████    ▄██████▀
▀█████               ▄███████▀
▀████████████████████████▀
▀▀██████████████████▀▀
▀▀▀████████▀▀▀
▄▄▄████████▄▄▄
▄▄██████████████████▄▄
▄████████████████████████▄
▄███████▀               █████▄
▄██████▀       ▀███████   █████▄
▄█████▀  ▄    █▄   ▀██▀  ▄  █████▄
████▀  ▄██  █  ███▄    ▄███  █████
▄███  ▄████ ███  ██▀     ▀███  ████▄
███         ▀███    ▄███▄   ▀█  ████
███  ████▄            ▀▀▀██▄     ███
████  ████ ████▀    █▄▄▄         ███
▀████  ██  ██▀  ▄██  ███▀▀      ███▀
█████  █  ▀  ▄████▀    ▄██▀  ▄████
▀█████     ▄█▀▀    ▄  ██▀  ▄█████▀
▀█████       ▄▄█████    ▄██████▀
▀█████               ▄███████▀
▀████████████████████████▀
▀▀██████████████████▀▀
▀▀▀████████▀▀▀
[|]
Kazimir
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 06, 2015, 11:54:17 PM
 #9

But a coin will either be anonymous or transparent (or the option to choose one or the other per-transaction); no in-between. Is that not a correct statement?
No. For example, here are a few 100% transparent transactions.



The 2 BTC on the left was mine. Now, which addresses on the right still belong to me? Nobody can tell.

Note that pretty much all wallets are HD nowadays. There is no mixing or other obfuscation trickery at play here, this is just normal default wallet behavior.

Quote
Currently, our fiat transactions, aside from physical cash-to-hand, they are "kind-of" safeguarded by the centralized banking system, in-terms of some level of anonymity.

Hah, for the general public, maybe. They (banks, governments, secret services, paypal, credit card companies, etc) most definitely have all the information they want. All conveniently grouped together in a nice, efficient, centralized database. With fiat, your supposed precious 'privacy' is handed over on a silver plate.

Quote
You can't walk into the bank and ask the teller to show you your neighbor's financial transactions of last week.
With cryptocurrency, you can't either.

Quote
Convince me why I shouldn't be concerned about lack of anonymity.
I hope the above picture explains why this is completely infeasible. Still, if you're really paranoid, you might look at Monero's cryptonote protocol. That's 100% anonymity built in right there.

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Insert coin(s): 1KazimirL9MNcnFnoosGrEkmMsbYLxPPob
Bit_Happy
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2030
Merit: 1020


A Great Time to Start Something!


View Profile
August 07, 2015, 12:09:18 AM
 #10

"Pseudo anonymous" as it relates to cryptocurrency seems a silly term to me. We might not see it right in front of us now, but...

In 2011, during the first huge Bull rally, mass-media and some internet articles called BTC an anonymous currency.
I was surprised to later learn about the "Pseudo anonymous" nature of Bitcoins.
franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3486
Merit: 2568



View Profile
August 07, 2015, 12:37:38 AM
 #11

"Pseudo anonymous" as it relates to cryptocurrency seems a silly term to me. We might not see it right in front of us now, but...

In 2011, during the first huge Bull rally, mass-media and some internet articles called BTC an anonymous currency.
I was surprised to later learn about the "Pseudo anonymous" nature of Bitcoins.

bitcoin is anonymous.. right up until the point someone tells the world their bitcoin address.. Mr. 15DYJpWJe9H1YofsNQbP9JEWWNn7XPZgbS..

so now people know your address. they can see part/all of your holdings. but still dont know who your sending it to or if the send addresses are also yours or not,, right up until the point them addresses are linked to a name.

so bitcoin is as anonymous as cash.. right up until you get caught on CCTV handing over the bank note.. so overall most/all currencies are pseudo, including bitcoin. because even using mixers. if someone knows one of yor send addresses, he knows atleast something about your financial history

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
Kakmakr
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 2730
Merit: 1745



View Profile
August 07, 2015, 09:00:49 AM
 #12

I live in a country where you can get a complete credit check on someone for a small fee. I tested it on myself one day and was amazed on how much strangers know about my business with one click of a button. So this is not just a problem with Bitcoin. The advantage of Bitcoin comes in when you do not link your different addresses with each other.

I can use different devices <Trezor / Tablets / Internet Cafe / Bitcoin ATM or vending machines> to make cross referencing between address nearly impossible. Then you add some mixing services into that and it becomes very difficult to trace spending habits.

Let's not get too paranoid about this, there are more options for anonymity than other centralized payment methods.   

.
.Duelbits.
█▀▀▀▀▀











█▄▄▄▄▄
TRY OUR
  NEW  UNIQUE
GAME!
.
.DICE..
▄▄██████▄▄
▄▄██████████████▄▄
▄██████████████████████▄
██████████████████████████
██████████████████████████
██████████████████████████
██████████████████████████
██████████████████████████
██████████████████████████
▀████████████████████████▀
▀██████████████████████▀
▀▀██████████████▀▀
▀▀██████▀▀
PROVABLY
      FAIR       
                     ███████
                       ███       ▄
                   ▄▄███████▄▄   ▄█▄
 ██  ████████
  ▄▄█████████████████▀ ▀
              █████          █████
      █████
  ██████         ▄   ████
            ██████        ▄▀     ████
████████
    ██████     ███       ████
            █████▄              ████
     ███████████████
            ████

              ████████▄▄▄▄▄▄  █████
               ▀▀███████████████▀▀
                   ▀▀███████▀▀
INSTANT
      BET       
NEARLY UP TO
.50%. REWARDS
▀▀▀▀▀█











▄▄▄▄▄█
bornil267645
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 406
Merit: 250


AltoCenter.com


View Profile WWW
August 07, 2015, 10:11:44 AM
 #13

I don't think the anonymity part was made for bragging about that. It was meant to use for stuff like paying for something without letting them know your identity. And you can completely do that with bitcoin by taking some easy steps. So I don't see how it is not anonymous?

pandher
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 952
Merit: 1000


Stagnation is Death


View Profile WWW
August 07, 2015, 10:26:37 AM
 #14

bitcoin is anonymous.. right up until the point someone tells the world their bitcoin address.. Mr. 15DYJpWJe9H1YofsNQbP9JEWWNn7XPZgbS..

so now people know your address. they can see part/all of your holdings. but still dont know who your sending it to or if the send addresses are also yours or not,, right up until the point them addresses are linked to a name.

People know my address, if i send money to a porn shop or a violent cult, my boss, my wife, my children or the whole world will be able to see it

Some people's intellectual capability is actually laughable. Bitcoin is worse than Cash if talking about privacy
dreamspark
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 798
Merit: 1000


View Profile
August 07, 2015, 11:04:54 AM
 #15

bitcoin's lack of anonymity is a real issue. now imagine my salary is being paid in bitcoin, and I have a bitcoin bank account I certainly don't want that information public. This does need to be solved  and made easy to use for the average joe
No it's not.
Bitcoin is running on a "PUBLIC LEDGER". Anyone can track any tx on blockchain. If you want to stay anonymous then you should get paid in CASH.

Or learn how to mix coins properly. Still in the future of a bitcoin bank I would imagine that it would work the same way as most exchanges and would keep all funds in a small number of wallets. Therefore your coins would be untraceable to yourself when withdrawing, only exception would be the bank themselves.
Kazimir
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 07, 2015, 11:05:41 AM
 #16

bitcoin is anonymous.. right up until the point someone tells the world their bitcoin address.. Mr. 15DYJpWJe9H1YofsNQbP9JEWWNn7XPZgbS..

so now people know your address. they can see part/all of your holdings. but still dont know who your sending it to or if the send addresses are also yours or not,, right up until the point them addresses are linked to a name.

People know my address, if i send money to a porn shop or a violent cult, my boss, my wife, my children or the whole world will be able to see it

Some people's intellectual capability is actually laughable. Bitcoin is worse than Cash if talking about privacy
When you say "my address" (not plural), I wonder if you are aware of the fact that you can have as many different addresses as you like? Completely unlinked and unrelated to eachother?

Furthermore, even if you do send money from an address that your wife knows about, for example to a porn shop or violent cult, exactly how will she (or anyone) know that the receiving address is actually a porn shop or violent cult?

Here, for example, this is a transaction from me, paying for porn:
https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/tx/48a2d6b13b6cdd1d960f3a61478ffb3781341abe75b2208aa2c2e10dfd2c7c20

Even if you or my wife or my boss or anyone knows that the sending address was mine, then what?

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Insert coin(s): 1KazimirL9MNcnFnoosGrEkmMsbYLxPPob
Kazimir
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 07, 2015, 11:10:30 AM
 #17

No it's not.
Bitcoin is running on a "PUBLIC LEDGER". Anyone can track any tx on blockchain.
Exactly what can you "track" about any tx?

1. You have no clue know the name, identity, or any personal information of either the sending or the receiving person.

2. Before and after this tx, the bitcoins are came from earlier addresses, and sent further to different addresses, you don't know if they still belong to the same owner or if he/she is spending them to others.

There's your anonymity right there.

Quote
If you want to stay anonymous then you should get paid in CASH.
And risk getting filmed by security cams, or the other person remembering my face, or getting secretly recorded or followed, or receiving marked bills, or having serial numbers printed on them which are tracked? No thanks. Bitcoin provides all the guarantee for my anonymity, privacy and security I need.

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Insert coin(s): 1KazimirL9MNcnFnoosGrEkmMsbYLxPPob
medUSA
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 952
Merit: 1003


--Signature Designs-- http://bit.ly/1Pjbx77


View Profile WWW
August 07, 2015, 11:49:08 AM
 #18

Anonymous means you cannot tie a name to it easily, does not mean it cannot be investigated and tracked. You can send an anonymous letter to someone. You did not sign your name on it, but it could be traced back to you even something tries hard enough. Bitcoin is like that. I have said this before on another thread. I believe the real difficulty is not the anonymity when you are saving coins. It's not putting a name to the coins when you spend it.
pandher
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 952
Merit: 1000


Stagnation is Death


View Profile WWW
August 07, 2015, 11:51:32 AM
 #19

When you say "my address" (not plural), I wonder if you are aware of the fact that you can have as many different addresses as you like? Completely unlinked and unrelated to eachother?

How inconvenient, giving out new addresses for every transaction every time. I can picture a lot of mistaken transactions due to this. Do people who pay me regularly for my services have to contact me each month for a new address?

Quote
Furthermore, even if you do send money from an address that your wife knows about, for example to a porn shop or violent cult, exactly how will she (or anyone) know that the receiving address is actually a porn shop or violent cult?

Do you think businesses will keep changing their deposit addresses everyday, i have already seen people tagging Mt Gox, Coinbase, Poloniex addresses

Quote
Even if you or my wife or my boss or anyone knows that the sending address was mine, then what?

Lol, are we really talking about this?

Why even wear clothes then? Walk naked, the what?
franky1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3486
Merit: 2568



View Profile
August 07, 2015, 12:52:40 PM
 #20

bitcoin is anonymous.. right up until the point someone tells the world their bitcoin address.. Mr. 15DYJpWJe9H1YofsNQbP9JEWWNn7XPZgbS..

so now people know your address. they can see part/all of your holdings. but still dont know who your sending it to or if the send addresses are also yours or not,, right up until the point them addresses are linked to a name.

People know my address, if i send money to a porn shop or a violent cult, my boss, my wife, my children or the whole world will be able to see it

Some people's intellectual capability is actually laughable. Bitcoin is worse than Cash if talking about privacy

well if people know your addess. then make a second address and send the funds there.. if questioned about it say you spent the funds bying a pair of shoes or something..

if people know all the random addresses of porn websites.. flip the argument around and ask them how they know so much.. they must obviously visit the sites too..

as long as you not stupid enough to do a straight transaction from a known address of yours, to a known receiving address.. then you can deny it and say it was someone else.. thats why its pseudonomous.. because it needs people to not tell the world what the addresses sending and receiving are..

so get into practice of not just using funds from a well known address directly.. and if too many people know it.. just move all your funds around and just drop and ignore the old known address..
its not like a bank where you need application forms just to get an address.. so feel free to make 50 addresses and move it around.. stop being so public about your spending and ur wife/boss wont know who sent what or why.. again stop telling people addresses of funds dedicated for purchases of things you dont want known

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!