...

[Lauda]

9% of XT nodes doesn't really matter. Did XT mine any blocks ?

No.

This is exactly what XT can only cause. Minimum benefit from the increase but a lot of harm be it with a split or negative press. This wasn't what Bitcoin needed. Unfortunately both Core and XT developers are acting like little children. They should have been able to reach a compromise. The activity around the development is similar to what happens with politics.
If they had only agreed together and implemented something all would be fine. However, I suspect this was planned way back.

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[zeroday]

This is really disturbing and may damage BTC reputation.
Also, it's not developers, but miners decide which version will prevail.

[LiteCoinGuy]

9% of XT nodes doesn't really matter. Did XT mine any blocks ?

11% in 3 days.

core should increase the blocksize to 4-5MB and would win these nodes.

[RoadTrain]

This is really disturbing and may damage BTC reputation.
Also, it's not developers, but miners decide which version will prevail.

Not developers, not miners, but the economic majority.

[forevernoob]

Causing investors to panic? That's a bit strong innit?
The price is around 255 now it was 260 yesterday.

[knolix]

If bitcoin survives this it will grow stronger so let's see what happens

[danielW]

If the community is split and both coins have some financial value, people will mine both of them. People mine Litecoin afterall, which is kind of a fork of bitcoin.

that's not how it will work miners aren't going to take a moral stand if one side starts to min the rest will follow within a day or 2.  It will likely go to whatever side the exchanges are on because miners need to sell their coins.

Its not about moral stance. In the case that user base is split, exchanges and infrastructure is split, both coins can hold some financial value.

If both coins hold financial value there is profit to be made by mining both coins.

Of course the value of a united bitcoin would be more then the sum of it split parts.

There is no value in mining two different protocols.  One will always have an advantage and that is the side that people will flock to. If bitcoin really does split it 2 it will make bitcoin near worthless and it won't matter what side your on because nobody will buy into a payment system that could split apart like that. It will be a true failure of the protocol and bitcoin will likely be abadoned for an alt coin.


It wouldn't happen anyway because one side will become more valuable and more widely used.  The miners aren't going to want to get caught on the wrong side.  Again A fork will get resolved quickly because nobody wants to be sitting on coins they can't sell.  Greed will resolve this conflict faster then you realize.

Maybe, but I think you make too strong assumptions. Litecoin and Bitcoin exists and thats a fork of Bitcoin. Its possible for them both to retain value. Miners cant get caught on the wrong side. If they both have value they are both the right side. You can have diffrent exchanges operating for the diffrent chains.  

[DannyHamilton]

Complete lack of understanding on how bitcoin works.  Any splits will be resolved quickly due to the incentive of miners to agree. Bitcoin is designed to do this.

we cant really be sure of that. A disputed fork never occurred before, even in other alt coins. We could be in trouble by holding assumptions.

What do you think altcoins are?

99% of all altcoins ARE disputed forks of bitcoin.

An altcoin is THE RESULT OF someone creating a fork that only a portion of users decide to mine and use.

[meono]

lol


how?

I propose we send them to re-education camps in Siberia.

Ok so we're acting as dictators yet calling Mike a dictator?

Hypocrisy much?

[danielW]

9% of XT nodes doesn't really matter. Did XT mine any blocks ?

Not yet but I am sure Gavin and his supporters will be trying to lobby them and the exchanges over the next few months. He made it clear that he has been doing that already and has some backing.

I dont think he would do it if he did not think he has some support from miners.

They probably just have not switched over yet.

He can probably get coinbase on board, and many of the bigger silicon valley type businesses that are sick of these libertarian types.

His biggest hurdle might be Chinese mining pools and miners, but they can try and convince the individual miners to switch to the pools that support XT.

[meono]

Miners will never adopt BitcoinXT, anyone educated enough to run a pool knows that BitcoinXT will lower the total amount of transaction fees. Why would they change over to something that is not only controversial but also takes money out of their pockets?

Anyone have a link for total hash of XT right now? I bet it's pathetic. Open all the bullshit nodes you want on free trials of virtual servers, will not make a difference.

hahahaha go on.

[Lauda]

What do you think altcoins are?

99% of all altcoins ARE disputed forks of bitcoin.

An altcoin is THE RESULT OF someone creating a fork that only a portion of users decide to mine and use.

Nope, this doesn't work with ignorant people and some XT supporters. The last time that I used this statement, I received a nice piece of ad hominem in return. This is why theymos has called XT a programmed altcoin, I believe. It does make sense (to me).

XT is divide et impera at its finest.

Update:
Excellent quoted post that I have missed. That is definitely useful for further discussions.

[DannyHamilton]

What do you think altcoins are?

99% of all altcoins ARE disputed forks of bitcoin.

An altcoin is THE RESULT OF someone creating a fork that only a portion of users decide to mine and use.

Nope, this doesn't work with ignorant people and some XT supporters. The last time that I used this statement, I received a nice piece of ad hominem in return. This is why theymos has called XT a programmed altcoin, I believe. It does make sense (to me).

XT is divide et impera at its finest.

XT has the potential to be an altcoin, but it also has the potential to turn the current protocol (Bitcoin Core) into an altcoin.

Right now (until someone actually mines a block that is only accepted by one of the two competing protocols) XT is nothing more than an alternate client that supports the same consensus rules as Bitcoin Core.  After that, which is the alt and which is "bitcoin" will depend on the acceptance of each in the marketplace.

If I could find a feature that violated the current bitcoin consensus rules and which approximately 50% of miners, merchants, and users were willing to immediately adopt while the other 50% were adamantly against, I would roll out a node that supported the feature and suggest that we fork bitcoin today.

Perhaps the result would be a complete disaster, and we could all stop wasting our time on an experiment that clearly can stand on its own in the real world...

Or perhaps market forces would stabilize the situation and everyone would finally shut up about how horrible a contentious fork might be.

This won't be the last time that some influential people want something that some other influential people don't want.  It is human nature and will occur over and over many times.  We can all calm down and accept that the design of bitcoin is capable of surviving anything that anyone else might do, or we can accept that the bitcoin experiment is a failure and we can silently move on with our lives.

Either way, it is certainly ridiculous to think that either side in any "fork" is the "right side". It's also ridiculous to expect that the whole world will always do what an individual or group thinks is "best for bitcoin" just because you want the world to behave that way. There will always be differences of opinion, and there will always be people that feel that they can force their opinion on others (by threats, intimidation, mockery, scare tactics, etc).

[forlackofabettername]

Didn't see that coming, huh?

Gavin is a complete PR desaster - always has been.

edit: poster above me (Hamilton) deletes me from his threads in order to fabricate an image with his topics. Beware selfmoderated topics by Hamilton are rigged.

[meono]

Didn't see that coming, huh?

Gavin is a complete PR desaster - always has been.

I'm sorry that you misunderstood bitcoin is a company and your bitcoins are share of that company.

Time to actually read about bitcoin.

[forlackofabettername]

9% of XT nodes doesn't really matter. Did XT mine any blocks ?

Nope, xt doesn't mine blocks because most nodes are fake nodes (notXT-software). I was also looking into hosting 5 to 10 fake Gavincoin nodes.

[quakefiend420]

9% of XT nodes doesn't really matter. Did XT mine any blocks ?

11% in 3 days.

core should increase the blocksize to 4-5MB and would win these nodes.

This.

I switched my node to XT, as this is the only way that I can make my vote public.  If the Core team would come up with a reasonable plan that actually provides some room for real growth(not 20MB blocks in 15 years), then I might switch back.  But then again, maybe I won't.  Perhaps competing implementations are a good thing, decentralization of power and all...

And to everyone saying that XT and its supporters need to be exterminated/removed/whatever...all I can say is lol.  Why are you here in the first place if you want a centralized dictatorship to decide the direction of your money?  You can get that all over the world already...

This is how it should work.  May the best fork win!

[RoadTrain]

Right now (until someone actually mines a block that is only accepted by one of the two competing protocols) XT is nothing more than an alternate client that supports the same consensus rules as Bitcoin Core.  After that, which is the alt and which is "bitcoin" will depend on the acceptance of each in the marketplace.

That's not true, I think. It supports the current consensus rules, but its own rules themselves are different. Its protocol is different already.

It conforms to all the current limits and is following the current protocol to the letter.  Ergo, it's Bitcoin but with a vote for a possible future change.  It sends and receives Bitcoin transactions on the Bitcoin blockchain.  It. Is. Bitcoin.   If it had already forked and was producing 8mb blocks on a separate blockchain without a majority agreeing, then and only then would it be an altcoin.

It is extending the current protocol in its consensus-enforcing part. Because it says: after 2016-something if 75% miners have done something, we can produce larger blocks. It implicitly states it can do something the current protocol doesn't allow, under certain conditions that you call 'consensus' (which is far from the real consensus). It can disguise as an ordinary client in the meantime, doesn't matter, it won't make it Bitcoin.

It's not like protocol will be changed only if 75% miners agree, it's already changed by adding this very condition. Protocol amounts to all consensus-critical rules, implicit and explicit, that are written in the software.

[quakefiend420]

9% of XT nodes doesn't really matter. Did XT mine any blocks ?

Nope, xt doesn't mine blocks because most nodes are fake nodes (notXT-software). I was also looking into hosting 5 to 10 fake Gavincoin nodes.

This is stupid(based on your reasoning, actually interesting from a perspective of experimentation seeing as there's nothing stopping it) and is actually going to cause more damage than XT ever could, but you're certainly free to do whatever you want.

[meono]

9% of XT nodes doesn't really matter. Did XT mine any blocks ?

Nope, xt doesn't mine blocks because most nodes are fake nodes (notXT-software). I was also looking into hosting 5 to 10 fake Gavincoin nodes.

That would help your cause... thanks for being stupid.