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Author Topic: The Anti-XTers Are Harming Bitcoin  (Read 5361 times)
jonald_fyookball
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August 22, 2015, 03:32:37 PM
 #61

-snip-

The anti XTers are biased against Mike Hearn because
Mike Hearn has said many questionable things
in the past, but at this point he is the lesser of two evils.

He is still doing this and moreover, he is doing thins without consensus.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1159020.msg12211930#msg12211930

blacklisting of IPs by nodes isnt the same thing as blacklisting of coins.
Its not a threat to fungibility. 

Again, given the two choices, I'd rather take my chances with Mike's fork
than be subservient to Blockstream and their plans to keep the 1mb in
place forever.

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August 22, 2015, 03:48:22 PM
 #62

-snip-

The anti XTers are biased against Mike Hearn because
Mike Hearn has said many questionable things
in the past, but at this point he is the lesser of two evils.

He is still doing this and moreover, he is doing thins without consensus.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1159020.msg12211930#msg12211930

blacklisting of IPs by nodes isnt the same thing as blacklisting of coins.
Its not a threat to fungibility. 

Again, given the two choices, I'd rather take my chances with Mike's fork
than be subservient to Blockstream and their plans to keep the 1mb in
place forever.

You were not talking about "blacklisting of coins" explicitly, but "questionable activities" in general. And my reply was that he is still doing it.

That's your personal opinion. I understand. FWIW mentioning, I am still neutral.

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August 22, 2015, 04:00:42 PM
 #63

Every thread I see on this topic is looking like FUD. May not be what people are reaching for but the idea is being pushed to hard to not look like a agenda driven tactic.

Why not create a new coin?
Why the need for IP tracking?

The only positive I see is bigger blocks and thats a horrible thing to chase when you look at all the other changes.
Bitcoin to me is about non regulation and once you start building a database its over. Its no longer relevant for me to use if that day comes.
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August 22, 2015, 04:02:15 PM
 #64

I think the exact opposite. XT and its supporters are harming Bitcoin generally. We definitely don't need 8 mb block size now. Why do we need to raise it to 8 times suddenly? That system would be open for spam attacks. It does bad for Bitcoin than good.

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August 22, 2015, 04:02:54 PM
 #65

Why not create a new coin?

because we want bitcoin to succeed

Why the need for IP tracking?

fud



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August 22, 2015, 04:03:41 PM
 #66

I think the exact opposite. XT and its supporters are harming Bitcoin generally. We definitely don't need 8 mb block size now. Why do we need to raise it to 8 times suddenly? That system would be open for spam attacks. It does bad for Bitcoin than good.

miners are still free to choose which transactions too include in a block.
no one forces them to put spam transactions in there.

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August 22, 2015, 04:07:49 PM
 #67

miners are still free to choose which transactions too include in a block.
no one forces them to put spam transactions in there.

That doesn't effect blockchain. We have faced serious Bitcoin Core syncing problems before. Dust spam attacks shouldn't be that easy. Imagine with 8 MB block size how much spam attack we get.

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August 22, 2015, 04:11:29 PM
 #68

miners are still free to choose which transactions too include in a block.
no one forces them to put spam transactions in there.

That doesn't effect blockchain. We have faced serious Bitcoin Core syncing problems before. Dust spam attacks shouldn't be that easy. Imagine with 8 MB block size how much spam attack we get.

what do sync issues have to do with block size?

you obviously have no idea what you are talking about...

and well... its easy to calculate how "much spam attack" we can get with 8mb. just imagine how expansive a 1tb drive is today and how long it takes to get filled... really a big problem Wink

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Sourgummies
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August 22, 2015, 04:11:41 PM
 #69

Why not create a new coin?

because we want bitcoin to succeed

Why the need for IP tracking?

fud




You want bitcoin to succeed by dividing it,thats a very interesting concept.

Thats the point about FUD,depending how the perception goes you see fact or you see fud. But do you see "Stay Core" posts popping up left and right? Agenda driven XT can
keep blasting the forums or it can calm down and expalin itself.
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August 22, 2015, 04:14:38 PM
 #70


You want bitcoin to succeed by dividing it,thats a very interesting concept.

Thats the point about FUD,depending how the perception goes you see fact or you see fud. But do you see "Stay Core" posts popping up left and right? Agenda driven XT can
keep blasting the forums or it can calm down and expalin itself.


i want bitcoin to succeed by making it usable by the masses. not just a few people. thats satoshis vision and thats why i come to bitcoin in the first place.

we dont need an elitist currency only usable by 0.0001% of world population

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August 22, 2015, 04:20:51 PM
 #71

You want bitcoin to succeed by dividing it,thats a very interesting concept.

Thats the point about FUD,depending how the perception goes you see fact or you see fud. But do you see "Stay Core" posts popping up left and right? Agenda driven XT can
keep blasting the forums or it can calm down and expalin itself.

i want bitcoin to succeed by making it usable by the masses. not just a few people. thats satoshis vision and thats why i come to bitcoin in the first place.

we dont need an elitist currency only usable by 0.0001% of world population

That's a good point. But we can't just go with a limit with uncertain possibility. Its better to wait sometime for a better solution than to implement something with uncertain possibility which may or may not cause problems.

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August 22, 2015, 04:23:11 PM
 #72

You want bitcoin to succeed by dividing it,thats a very interesting concept.

Thats the point about FUD,depending how the perception goes you see fact or you see fud. But do you see "Stay Core" posts popping up left and right? Agenda driven XT can
keep blasting the forums or it can calm down and expalin itself.

i want bitcoin to succeed by making it usable by the masses. not just a few people. thats satoshis vision and thats why i come to bitcoin in the first place.

we dont need an elitist currency only usable by 0.0001% of world population

That's a good point. But we can't just go with a limit with uncertain possibility. Its better to wait sometime for a better solution than to implement something with uncertain possibility which may or may not cause problems.

Any solution will have uncertain possibilities don't fool yourself. There is a time we must have the balls to move forward.

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August 22, 2015, 04:24:06 PM
 #73


You want bitcoin to succeed by dividing it,thats a very interesting concept.

Thats the point about FUD,depending how the perception goes you see fact or you see fud. But do you see "Stay Core" posts popping up left and right? Agenda driven XT can
keep blasting the forums or it can calm down and expalin itself.


i want bitcoin to succeed by making it usable by the masses. not just a few people. thats satoshis vision and thats why i come to bitcoin in the first place.

The other part was it to be permissionless, trustless and apolitical. Don't leave that part out, if you actually respect Satoshi's idea. If you're going to be selective about the founding principles, you should look up in the dictionary what the definition of the word "principle" is, as applied to this context.

Vires in numeris
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August 22, 2015, 04:24:27 PM
 #74

You want bitcoin to succeed by dividing it,thats a very interesting concept.

Thats the point about FUD,depending how the perception goes you see fact or you see fud. But do you see "Stay Core" posts popping up left and right? Agenda driven XT can
keep blasting the forums or it can calm down and expalin itself.

i want bitcoin to succeed by making it usable by the masses. not just a few people. thats satoshis vision and thats why i come to bitcoin in the first place.

we dont need an elitist currency only usable by 0.0001% of world population

That's a good point. But we can't just go with a limit with uncertain possibility. Its better to wait sometime for a better solution than to implement something with uncertain possibility which may or may not cause problems.

how long do you want to wait?

it takes much time to roll out such a change.

forecasts say that in maybe a year the current blocksize limit is hit
and btw: the blocksize limit is discussed for more than a year: imho ANY technical argument has been told and analyzed; its only politic, fud and fear now.

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August 22, 2015, 04:26:20 PM
 #75


You want bitcoin to succeed by dividing it,thats a very interesting concept.

Thats the point about FUD,depending how the perception goes you see fact or you see fud. But do you see "Stay Core" posts popping up left and right? Agenda driven XT can
keep blasting the forums or it can calm down and expalin itself.


i want bitcoin to succeed by making it usable by the masses. not just a few people. thats satoshis vision and thats why i come to bitcoin in the first place.

The other part was it to be permissionless, trustless and apolitical. Don't leave that part out, if you actually respect Satoshi's idea. If you're going to be selective about the founding principles, you should look up in the dictionary what the definition of the word "principle" is, as applied to this context.

i do. thats why i just wait what miners do.
what is in the blockchain or not is THEIR decision... like it or not.
what gets downloaded on your pc is YOUR decision by using the respective client.

no one is forced and anybody can do what HE wants.

i do respect that!

we'll see what the economy does in the end. personal freedom and self-responsibility at its best Wink

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August 22, 2015, 04:46:36 PM
 #76

OP basically makes the same argument the Anti-XTers do, only in reverse.  There is a legitimate split of opinion here.  It is a highly charged issue that involves BOTH technical and use/control issues.

The OP is engaging in the same dramatic politics as some of the Anti-XTers.  It is happening on both sides.

To simplify....

The XTers are arguing that their way is best, and they believe so strongly in it that they are willing to do anything to make it happen. This is evidenced by the fact that they HAVE done it - they have started the process, and they most likely do/will have the backing of the Exchanges/majority miners, and 75% will be achieved, and XT will happen.  I think everyone is aware that this is probably a much greater than 50% chance of happening.

The Anti-XTers are arguing that their way is best, and they believe so strongly in it that they are willing to do anything to make it happen. This is evidenced by the fact that they ARE doing it - they are finding a very solid base of people/groups that are rallying to the defense of Core, and they are clearly setting the stage to launch a counter-offensive in order to protect Core if the Hardfork occurs.  I think everyone is aware that this is probably at least a 50% chance of this happening, and even if it goes into a semi-dormancy, it could easily stage a comeback within 6 months or so as Degree of Diffculty in Mining subsequently recedes... and Core takes on an "underground" alt-original-bitcoin status.  And just to be clear - it could easily become established with greater chance than other Alt coins - because their is emotional attachment and loyalty on a pretty deep level to Core.

So I think that BOTH sides better start sipping from the Reality Koolaid and try and work out a compromise - because BOTH sides are trying the same tricks, waging the same warfare, and clearly indicating they are serious and willing to go over the edge of the cliff to get what they want.  The main objections to a compromise as I see it are that (A) XT Players think they have the upper hand and are stubbornly refusing to budge.  (B) Ant-XTers think they have the moral high ground and are stubbornly refusing to budge. But in reality BOTH have some valid points - but they haven't been able to find time out of their busy schedule of politicking for their own side - to actually try and negotiate.

I personally am simply not taking it for granted that all is going to work out well.
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August 22, 2015, 09:28:21 PM
 #77

When you push for bigger block sizes, and even force for it... I have no problem. Most people agree, we need bigger block sizes BUT when you sneak code in to compromise people's

privacy and counter Tor use, and also gear your changes to make it easier for your own APP's to work. {Lighting network} ...Well with that I have a huge problem.

Both Gavin and Mike are brilliant developers, but they sold us out to the US government, by doing these things.  Angry If you cool with that... you betting on the wrong side.  

Interesting idea. Perhaps I agree.
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August 22, 2015, 10:36:12 PM
 #78

I'd rather take my chances with Mike's fork
than be subservient to Blockstream and their plans to keep the 1mb in
place forever.

Adam Back, the Godfather of Bitcoin and boss of Blockstream, proposed an idea called 'extension blocks' which would make the 1mb cap more or less moot.

NMF not enough people are capable of appreciating the elegance of such a brilliant kludge.

The problem is you kids are too young to remember when extended RAM made the 640k (1MiB for all you pedants) limit moot.

You want a big, showy, capital-E Event to make Bitcoin moon, and you rich overnight.

Too bad XT is getting #rekt, and you will lose everything should you be courageous enough to accept XTcoins.   Cheesy


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August 22, 2015, 10:40:51 PM
 #79


The problem is you kids are too young to remember when extended RAM made the 640k (1MiB for all you pedants) limit moot.

very good example...

it was horrible dealing with EMM386.EXE/HIMEM.SYS under dos to deal with it (=extended blocks).
luckily modern systems dont have this problem any more and can address the whole memory (=bigger blocks).

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August 22, 2015, 10:47:32 PM
 #80

Yeah, supporting bigger blocks is not the same as XT.

Fellow above nailed it.

Bigger blocks = fine. Hostile takeover = wrong.

" If you have to spam and shout to justify your existence then you are a shit coin."  TaunSew
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