Why are people scared of taxes?

[Kontakt]

You say that "governments have the right to tax you." Why?

I have written many posts explaining that.  Go back and ask about the specifics you don't understand, and I may be able to explain them to you again.  I understand it can be difficult when you lack basic logic knowledge and don't believe in the right to property.  (Because it is evident to anyone with a basic understanding og property and logic.)

But I do believe in the right to property. I just want to know why the government thinks it's OK to take mine.

What makes you think it is yours?

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[myrkul]

You say that "governments have the right to tax you." Why?

I have written many posts explaining that.  Go back and ask about the specifics you don't understand, and I may be able to explain them to you again.  I understand it can be difficult when you lack basic logic knowledge and don't believe in the right to property.  (Because it is evident to anyone with a basic understanding og property and logic.)

But I do believe in the right to property. I just want to know why the government thinks it's OK to take mine.

What makes you think it is yours?

Because it is the fruits of my labor.

[TheButterZone]

Then you become a threat to yourself and others. You will be taken without lethal harm if at all possible. If you provide a significant threat to officers, they are entitled to shoot you in self defense.

So, we have arrived at the threat of death. From not paying taxes.

No.  From threatening the police.

Which means holding a cellphone, a hose nozzle, or nothing more than a 10-month-old baby and them "mistaking" it for a lethal threat to get away with shoot-on-sight murder, and the courts protecting their own perjuring fellow government agents.

So, if you felt threatened by someone, and had no clue what they are holding, would you shoot them in self-defense if you felt you were in danger?

I could not feel in danger if I had no clue what someone was holding. Only government agents are given so much benefit of the doubt that it is absolutely unreasonable, to the point where they can kill someone who never saw them to begin with, commit perjury and claim they felt threatened from their hidden vantage points, and get away with it with impunity. At the same time, "civilians" who shoot patently obvious violent criminals in self-defense are forced to prove their innocence in criminal and civil courts, in utter violation of due process and any measure of justice other than kangaroo courts'.

PMCs that you all suggest as a replacement for the police have even itchier trigger fingers.

Ah, the "you all". Shove your gross generalizations up your ass.

You are living within their sovereign territory, using their services and being protected by them. That, frankly, couldn't be clearer. Even if the government were replaced by private companies, you would pay just as much and receive less.

I reject their services and law enforcement is 100% legally exempt (both by Supreme Court precedent, and the government's own laws) from protecting anybody, anyway (and at the same time, "qualified immunity" means they can infringe upon your inherent human right to self-defense and get you murdered, raped, and maimed while defenseless, and not suffer any punishment whatsoever for their complicity). And I just love your Ipse dixit.

[asdf]

Why do I have to go to the local doctor?

Because you aren't walking or talking or thinking, you are about to die.  The doctor has to decide for you, and only has seconds to do so.

These ridiculous hypotheticals prove nothing. The free market solution provides better care in general, because all the right incentives are there. You point to one contrived case as proof that it fails completely. No, not everyone will magically be saved in a free market, but on average everyone will experience much better service.

I can play this game too. What if the regulators charged with the job of forcing "morality" on doctors decides you need to go kill some people on the other side of the world? What if they decide you have to go to prison for smoking a plant? What if the FDA approves a drug that causes death? You just take your business elsewhere... oh wait!

Why is healthcare expensive? we already discussed the fact that the state drives up the costs in the first place.

Yep, it is the hopeless mix of private and public health system with insurance companies and lawyers taking cuts.  It's an industry.  A public health system proves to be much more efficient, as far as you can prove something using statistics from other countries.

Stats are easily biased and misinterpreted. The fact is that if you understand that businesses profit ONLY by being the best providers of a good or service in a competitive market place, the profit incentive naturally leads to low prices and high quality. How does the computer industry work? Are the regulators forcing manufacturers to produce faster, more efficient chips? No, manufacturers do this on their own because their customers want it.

Do you have to buy computer insurance? No, because they're so damn cheap you can just buy a new one if it breaks. This is the unregulated market.

Why can't charities/family help out? Without paying tribute to our government overlords, we will have plenty of wealth left over to help the needy.

They will have to help out as well when the bill for keeping that heart and lung machine running for tree days come on the table.  You chose the extra expensive model by moving your left eyelid, or so the doctor tells you.

Actually, this kind of overconsumption happens when the government subsidises services. Because the extra expensive lung machine is paid for by the taxpayer and you are not directly exposed to the cost, you "buy" it over the cheap model. This drives prices up in a socialised system. To combat this effect, the government restricts what lung machines are available.

Charities, on the other hand, are much more discerning about how they distribute their resources.

Why is the doctor a total asshole who will demand life servitude for saving someones life?

Because with no regulations he can.

Except that before the government got involved, they didn't.

Before the government stepped in with it's regulation and licences and general market distortions, doctors did pro-bono work all the time. Now it's too much of a liability.

Yeah.  With no regulations and licences and "general market distortions", you have no idea if he is actually educated as a doctor.  He may have been a homeless who just mugged a doctor for his bag and coat, and got lucky because he happened to be around the office doing pro-bono work as a gynecologist.

What has this got to do with regulating markets? This can happen under the state system just as easily.

Also, there would be certification institutions for medical practitioners, if the market demanded it. Also, this would be considered fraud and the "doctor" would be liable for damages.

[sturle]

You say that "governments have the right to tax you." Why?

I have written many posts explaining that.  Go back and ask about the specifics you don't understand, and I may be able to explain them to you again.  I understand it can be difficult when you lack basic logic knowledge and don't believe in the right to property.  (Because it is evident to anyone with a basic understanding og property and logic.)

But I do believe in the right to property. I just want to know why the government thinks it's OK to take mine.

It isn't yours, it belongs to the government.  What make you think it is yours?

Your rights over property you call your own are limited by the same laws that allow you to own property in the first place.  If you don't want the laws to apply, you need to start your own country.  Either by fighting for it, which I understand you want to do by threatening the police, or by settling in some part of the earth not yet claimed by any nation and declare your own nation there.  If you decide to take the land from your country by force, you must be prepared to fight the army.  The country has a right to fight back.

[myrkul]

You say that "governments have the right to tax you." Why?

I have written many posts explaining that.  Go back and ask about the specifics you don't understand, and I may be able to explain them to you again.  I understand it can be difficult when you lack basic logic knowledge and don't believe in the right to property.  (Because it is evident to anyone with a basic understanding og property and logic.)

But I do believe in the right to property. I just want to know why the government thinks it's OK to take mine.

It isn't yours, it belongs to the government.  What make you think it is yours?

Now you're the one asking questions I've already answered.

What makes you think it is yours?

Because it is the fruits of my labor.

[sturle]

Why do I have to go to the local doctor?

Because you aren't walking or talking or thinking, you are about to die.  The doctor has to decide for you, and only has seconds to do so.

These ridiculous hypotheticals prove nothing.

These ridiculous hypotheticals happen every minute.  Only regulations stop the further consequences.

The free market solution provides better care in general, because all the right incentives are there.

This is simply not true.  You are making this up.  Give one example of a country with a free market health system that is better and more efficient than a public health system.  One single case.  Just one! 

Stats are easily biased and misinterpreted. The fact is that if you understand that businesses profit ONLY by being the best providers of a good or service in a competitive market place, the profit incentive naturally leads to low prices and high quality. How does the computer industry work? Are the regulators forcing manufacturers to produce faster, more efficient chips? No, manufacturers do this on their own because their customers want it.

Your mistake here is to assume health services is a free market.  It isn't.  You can't go shopping for a surgery when you are half dead, like you shop for a computer.  I live in a public health system, and I can still choose which hospital to get treatment at (even private hospitals).  Try to make me choose another hospital than the closest adequate one if I fall seriously ill.  It isn't going to happen.  If I wasn't dead or in a much worse condition when I got to a hospital far away, I would certainly not enjoy the transport.  The right to choose hospital makes almost no difference to where people get treated.  Luckily there are regulations to assure a minimum quality, so I'm not putting myself at risk by going to the closest hospital, and there is not really a need to google for alternatives in the ambulance.

Do you have to buy computer insurance? No, because they're so damn cheap you can just buy a new one if it breaks. This is the unregulated market.

If your heart stops, you assume that you can just go to the shop and get a new one, right?  I value myself more than I value my computer.  I also value my house more than I value my computer, and have an insurance for my house.  I do not have insurance for my health.  My health is insured by the public health system, since I am valuable for the government as a tax payer.  The government profits by making sure I get well and get back to work as soon as possible.

Also, there would be certification institutions for medical practitioners, if the market demanded it. Also, this would be considered fraud and the "doctor" would be liable for damages.

Ah, so you want some kind of regulation after all!  Like certifications, which you argued against earlier.

[sturle]

It isn't yours, it belongs to the government.  What make you think it is yours?

Now you're the one asking questions I've already answered.

True, I didn't notice that.

What makes you think it is yours?

Because it is the fruits of my labor.

You are a commie!

Face the reality.  Some of the fruits of your labour belong to the government.  By law and right.  You are just a peasant.

[myrkul]

What makes you think it is yours?

Because it is the fruits of my labor.

You are a commie!

Face the reality.  Some of the fruits of your labour belong to the government.  By law and right.  You are just a peasant.

Adam Smith was a commie?

It's official. You're trolling.

[sturle]

What makes you think it is yours?

Because it is the fruits of my labor.

You are a commie!

Face the reality.  Some of the fruits of your labour belong to the government.  By law and right.  You are just a peasant.

Adam Smith was a commie?

No, and now I really don't understand you.  Adam Smith, if we are both talking about the Adam Smith who wrote "The Wealth of Nations", examined a lot of different taxes and how to maximize the income of a nation without a negative impact on the efficiency of the market.  His work has become a model for modern welfare states.  He especially advocated progressive tax rates and luxury taxes.  What would the wealth of nations be without taxes?

"Every tax, however, is, to the person who pays it, a badge, not of slavery, but of liberty." -- Adam Smith

[myrkul]

What makes you think it is yours?

Because it is the fruits of my labor.

You are a commie!

Face the reality.  Some of the fruits of your labour belong to the government.  By law and right.  You are just a peasant.

Adam Smith was a commie?

No, and now I really don't understand you. 

My mistake, I meant John Locke. It's 3:00 AM here, and I've been up all night tending to my children. These things happen.
"[The individual] has a right to decide what would become of himself and what he would do, and as having a right to reap the benefits of what he did."

You're still a fucking troll, though.

[sturle]

Face the reality.  Some of the fruits of your labour belong to the government.  By law and right.  You are just a peasant.

Adam Smith was a commie?

No, and now I really don't understand you. 

My mistake, I meant John Locke. It's 3:00 AM here, and I've been up all night tending to my children. These things happen.
"[The individual] has a right to decide what would become of himself and what he would do, and as having a right to reap the benefits of what he did."

Yep, and under your contract with the government (as Locke would put it), you are obliged to pay tax from the fruits of your labour as well.  Both you and the government are bound by that contract.  You are however, according to John Locke, free to join the rest of the citizens in a revolution to replace the government if the government is working against the interests of citizens.

No, John Locke isn't a commie, but you obviously only agree to small pieces of his philosophy taken completely out of context.

You're still a fucking troll, though.

Scary, huh?

[vampire]

This is simply not true.  You are making this up.  Give one example of a country with a free market health system that is better and more efficient than a public health system.  One single case.  Just one!  

US system is pretty efficient, only the abuse of the public health system is actually brining the cost up.

Google the healthcare fraud, I personally know that most of the Russian doctors, here in NYC, are abusing the system. Most of them abuse medicare, the insurance company are hunting them down while the government doesn't (though lately I saw few cases when government caught very large rings, but not the individual doctors)

Examples of abuse:

Extra visits
Extra analysis
Extra treatments

I'd bet it's quiet common everywhere.

[Etlase2]

Examples of abuse:

Extra visits
Extra analysis
Extra treatments

I'd bet it's quiet common everywhere.

Anecdote: A small health center I used to work for got raided by the FBI (I think, this was many years ago and it was after I quit, might have been another three letter) for medicare fraud. They were committing a lot of fraud.

[Etlase2]

I was the IT guy, I had no clue whatsoever that it was going on. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Kontakt]

Just a little insight into my formative years, as a young teen I read The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair. While it is socialist semi-propaganda, the points raised within the book are too close to accurate for me to just laugh it off. That was one of the major foundations of my political philosophy.

[sturle]

This is simply not true.  You are making this up.  Give one example of a country with a free market health system that is better and more efficient than a public health system.  One single case.  Just one!  

US system is pretty efficient, only the abuse of the public health system is actually brining the cost up.

Funny you call the least effective system in the world "pretty efficient".  I think you need to do some more research.

Why would there be less abuse of the public health system if it was almost entirely public, like in the countries with the most effective health care systems?  Are people living in the USA more prone to abusing public services than other people?  Why don't people abuse their private health insurances instead?

[Richy_T]

If you don't want the laws to apply, you need to start your own country. 

This was already done.

[Richy_T]

This is simply not true.  You are making this up.  Give one example of a country with a free market health system that is better and more efficient than a public health system.  One single case.  Just one! 

Give one example of a country with a free market health system.

Health care was cheaper and more friendly back when it *was* free market. Unfortunately, startling increases in health care technology which brings both improvements in care and more expense happened at the same time as massive socialization and regulation of the healthcare industry, thus it is difficult to separate the variables.

I actually kinda like the UK model (though I disagree with it on principle). It's nice not to have to worry about healthcare, changing or losing your job and whatnot (it does have a lot of shortcomings too though). Unfortunately, the US seems to have taken the worst of all worlds and Obamacare just makes it worser.

[Richy_T]

The US, which always claims to be the best in everything, yet rich people travel to Mexico for their cancer treatment?

OMG! That's almost like a free market!!!