Bitcoin's real value

[hdbuck]

Just to make things clear... if you ever want to see +1000$/BTC.. and even moar!



It appears people seems not to grasp the complexity of the matter: it is mostly highly political. And of course politics have its way to cloud things up.

Mass adoption will not improve bitcoin's value, it is quite the opposite actually, it will likely flood and drown it.

But this mass thing is so not going to happen anyway, even if you "scale it" in advance. Sry but wake up, in its current form, bitcoin is out of the reach of regular sheeple.

People are too much anticipating, buying the fake dreams of them Antonopoulos, Gavin, Hearn et al., saving the planet with free insta-frappucinos.

But it's its scarcity both in cap and transactions that will allow it to surpass any regular investment.

I mean fuck look at the damned financial markets all around the world that are on the edge of a massive collapse!

We should be surfing that wave if it was not for the community tearing one another over technical things it does not even fully understand!

Stop worrying about scaling and all the technical fuss that you will never grasp anyway,

Patches, bug fix, or next gen 2nd/3rd/etc layers solutions, will come in due time and with fair testing.

For now, it is its robustness against human miscalculations, its decentralization, its permission-less-ness and its network's security that matters.

Why always this urge of Quantitative Easing everything?

That is so wrong on so many levels and in total opposition with bitcoin's fundamentals.

I do hope its antifragility would make bitcoin rise up from xt's hashes.

But for now, Gavin et al. had exactly what they wanted, that is dividing the community and induce the fear that it is not such a good investment.

The rules should be set in stone, and not subject to any major modification and by anyone, or that would create a precedent.

For example, just look at what them politicians are doing with the Euro and Greece! They rightfully fear to create that precedent of exiting that stinky zone!

But hopefully, not like the euro, bitcoin is an investment! not cash, not pocket money!

It is a Privilege, as in the privilege of securing your wealth from the banksters and bypass them!

So bitcoin is bound not to be free to transact with. The mining fee market should settle as the blocks gets filled.

That is what it takes for miners that will eventually see their block reward drop to zero to secure the system!

Anyway, nevermind, just HODL ffs!

Otherwise it will just be a pale copy of visa/mastercard/paypal and it will sink, because it simply cant compete.

Thats why its price is stalling now. You cant have both an investment and pocket money.

By definition it is not the same, and never will be: the investment you keep it.. the money you spend it.

So get your shit straight and tell them egomaniac forkers to gtfo of bitcoin! Starting with them two usg moles Gavin and Hearn.

It's time to be greedy and defend our safe-haven against these social attacks!




Hope i was clear, btw this is a self moderated thread, because i'm fed up arguing with the trolls and shills everywhere. It's your fault if bitcoin is loosing ground!

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[fenican]

Scarce? 21,000,000 of them will eventually be minted.

By contrast, only 300k 1893-O Morgan Dollars were minted and in decent condition they trade for about the same as 1 BTC.

On pure scarcity, an argument could be made Bitcoin is incredible overvalued. Buying for appreciation relative to dollars is incredibly naive. Trust me you have been lucky so far. Long term - ask anyone who paid $1000 per coin - you'll get buried.

Alt coin horders have already figured this out.

[albert11]

I kinda agree with you on some point but what do you propose as alternative to fiat money for day to day spending? 

Most people say that the market is volatile because it is still small which is true to some extent but i also think what makes it volatile is that it is unclear if bitcoin is a store of value or a currency and as a result people speculate on this.

There's also another question that comes to mind : can something be scarce only without any useful properties and still be a good store of value? take gold for instance, what if gold wasn't useful for anything( ie jellewery,etc) would it still be a good store of value?

[Hazir]

It's time to be greedy and defend our safe-haven against these social attacks!

I liked your post, your bring some serious points in that text. But I want to ask you something as you said that we need to defend bitcoin.
And how exactly single bitcoin user - not associated in any organisation, not miner, not techie, just nobody - can do to defend bitcoin?

[hdbuck]

I kinda agree with you on some point but what do you propose as alternative to fiat money for day to day spending?  

Most people say that the market is volatile because it is still small which is true to some extent but i also think what makes it volatile is that it is unclear if bitcoin is a store of value or a currency and as a result people speculate on this.

There's also another question that comes to mind : can something be scarce only without any useful properties and still be a good store of value? take gold for instance, what if gold wasn't useful for anything( ie jellewery,etc) would it still be a good store of value?

scarcity implies value. as for every good thing in the world, good cars etc, the less generally implies the more expensive (ever seen a dish in gastronomical restaurant? friggin ridiculous XD).

but 21 million coin is not so much, anyway, and we'll have to deal with it.

gold is different as it has been around and globally used for the last 2 milleniums or even more.

remember bitcoin has only been here for the last 5 years so you imho you have to be very clear as to what bring some value to it.

obviously it is not physical, you cant touch it, wear it etc..

but if bitcoin's foundation is rock solid, you could build the next generation of financial tools and vehicules, just the same they tried to do with gold and Bretton Woods..

and we all know the story of how they ended up breaking this deal, because banksters wanted more.. more paper money, more control, more lies and deceit as to the dollar's *real* value.

even gold now is just mostly paper, with its price highly subject to manipulation, because its actually FED's printers n°1 ennemy. if they have most of it worldwide physically it is not for nothing.

but dont let that happen with bitcoin!

[NorrisK]

Price decline always brings a lot of fear with it.. Just proves once again that we are not in bed with investor type people but with get rich fast people that get out at the first hint of trouble..

[Kazimir]

By contrast, only 300k 1893-O Morgan Dollars were minted and in decent condition they trade for about the same as 1 BTC.

They are about as 0.0000000001% useful as bitcoins. These 1893-O Morgan Dollars can't be used for micropayments, online trading, conducting international business, instant worldwide transactions, and is by no means a frictionless, independent, universal form of money.

Scarcity only means something relative to it's usefulness. Which is pretty much zero with 1893-O Morgan Dollars.

[Tstar]

There is no literal price for Bitcoin ...any value that people predict is just a prediction dosent matter even if it is based on facts ,because who knows how the market will react in the near future.

[Denker]

Price decline always brings a lot of fear with it.. Just proves once again that we are not in bed with investor type people but with get rich fast people that get out at the first hint of trouble..

Amen brother!
You're absolutely right.

[Hopalong]

I kinda agree with you on some point but what do you propose as alternative to fiat money for day to day spending?  

Most people say that the market is volatile because it is still small which is true to some extent but i also think what makes it volatile is that it is unclear if bitcoin is a store of value or a currency and as a result people speculate on this.

There's also another question that comes to mind : can something be scarce only without any useful properties and still be a good store of value? take gold for instance, what if gold wasn't useful for anything( ie jellewery,etc) would it still be a good store of value?

scarcity implies value. as for every good thing in the world, good cars etc, the less generally implies the more expensive (ever seen a dish in gastronomical restaurant? friggin ridiculous XD).

but 21 million coin is not so much, anyway, and we'll have to deal with it.

gold is different as it has been around and globally used for the last 2 milleniums or even more.

remember bitcoin has only been here for the last 5 years so you imho you have to be very clear as to what bring some value to it.

obviously it is not physical, you cant touch it, wear it etc..

but if bitcoin's foundation is rock solid, you could build the next generation of financial tools and vehicules, just the same they tried to do with gold and Bretton Woods..

and we all know the story of how they ended up breaking this deal, because banksters wanted more.. more paper money, more control, more lies and deceit as to the dollar's *real* value.

even gold now is just mostly paper, with its price highly subject to manipulation, because its actually FED's printers n°1 ennemy. if they have most of it worldwide physically it is not for nothing.

but dont let that happen with bitcoin!

Nothing gets valuable just because it is scarce. The good and scarce thing you can think of is valuable because is has some use and as a bonus it is scarce. Bitcoins value is fueled by some religious belife that it will change the economy and early adopters will get rich. Without that foundation bitcoin has nothing to offer.

Making a rock solid economy based on bitcoin is a fail. Just see the forum cry for sathoshi to come and save us. The belife in bitcoin crumble as soon as the messiah is gone.

[Kprawn]

I could not agree with you more on the fighting for scalability being fruitless, if this fight devide the community and affectively kill the coin. The scarsity alone should be the driving force behind the principle and not the

mainstream adaption for daily trade.

The only problem with this scenario is the utility factor of the currency gives it more value than the currency alone. You do not want to hodl something with value, if the demand for it will decline... if it cannot be used for

something other than a store of value.

Gold for instance cannot be used as a currency anymore due to it's rarity... demand for it did not decline, but it would have been more rare, if it was used as a currency... We would not have seen such a poor dollar value, if

it was still linked to gold.

[dothebeats]

It's time to be greedy and defend our safe-haven against these social attacks!

I liked your post, your bring some serious points in that text. But I want to ask you something as you said that we need to defend bitcoin.
And how exactly single bitcoin user - not associated in any organisation, not miner, not techie, just nobody - can do to defend bitcoin?

You got me thinking right in here. Of course, people would still care about the money after all even if supporting a nice cause. You cannot expect people to just throw away money to "support" something which is highly unstable and can be easily shattered by dramas. They can buy and buy to support bitcoin but that alone wouldn't be enough to at least help bitcoin be stable.

[guddu raj]

no bitcoin is not real value.
i cannot use any where any time or any merchants bitcoin. All merchants not accept bitcoin so it is not real value

[onemorexmr]

no bitcoin is not real value.
i cannot use any where any time or any merchants bitcoin. All merchants not accept bitcoin so it is not real value

i dont know any currency which is usable with any merchant. so no currency has value?

IMHO bitcoin has much more real value than any other currency:
 - "be your own bank"
 - fast transfers anywhere you like

that kind of freedom and has more value to me than anything else

[dothebeats]

no bitcoin is not real value.
i cannot use any where any time or any merchants bitcoin. All merchants not accept bitcoin so it is not real value

Bitcoin has value, it's just that there are not enough merchants to cater your needs that's why you deem it as worthless. Also, it is wrong to say that this technology is worthless or whatsoever because billions of dollars are poured into it.

[DooMAD]

The rules should be set in stone, and not subject to any major modification and by anyone, or that would create a precedent.

Okay then, we'll go back to the original implementation of Bitcoin that had a 33.5MB blocksize.  Satoshi subjected the network to a pretty major modification to the rules when he introduced the 1MB limit. 

[Hopalong]

no bitcoin is not real value.
i cannot use any where any time or any merchants bitcoin. All merchants not accept bitcoin so it is not real value

Bitcoin has value, it's just that there are not enough merchants to cater your needs that's why you deem it as worthless. Also, it is wrong to say that this technology is worthless or whatsoever because billions of dollars are poured into it.

There was poured billions into worthless internet companies in the early days of internet. Had thos companies value?

Ponzi and pyramid schemes are based on people pouring in money. Do they have value?


The idea that bitcoin has a real value at the moment is absurd. Its just a "handfull" group of people who know about it and it is useless for the most part. If you dont search activly for places to use your bitcoins you are likely to never find a merchant who accepts them.

[turvarya]

no bitcoin is not real value.
i cannot use any where any time or any merchants bitcoin. All merchants not accept bitcoin so it is not real value

Bitcoin has value, it's just that there are not enough merchants to cater your needs that's why you deem it as worthless. Also, it is wrong to say that this technology is worthless or whatsoever because billions of dollars are poured into it.

There was poured billions into worthless internet companies in the early days of internet. Had thos companies value?

Ponzi and pyramid schemes are based on people pouring in money. Do they have value?


The idea that bitcoin has a real value at the moment is absurd. Its just a "handfull" group of people who know about it and it is useless for the most part. If you dont search activly for places to use your bitcoins you are likely to never find a merchant who accepts them.

That is just wrong. I stumbled over merchants, who accept Bitcoin many times, even if it just a small percentage of all the merchants in the world.

The rules should be set in stone, and not subject to any major modification and by anyone, or that would create a precedent.

Okay then, we'll go back to the original implementation of Bitcoin that had a 33.5MB blocksize.  Satoshi subjected the network to a pretty major modification to the rules when he introduced the 1MB limit. 

And we would not be able to fix bugs.
Anybody who says, we should set things in stone, has no idea how anything works. History shows that every culture, who did something like that, had their downfall.

[Hopalong]

no bitcoin is not real value.
i cannot use any where any time or any merchants bitcoin. All merchants not accept bitcoin so it is not real value

Bitcoin has value, it's just that there are not enough merchants to cater your needs that's why you deem it as worthless. Also, it is wrong to say that this technology is worthless or whatsoever because billions of dollars are poured into it.

There was poured billions into worthless internet companies in the early days of internet. Had thos companies value?

Ponzi and pyramid schemes are based on people pouring in money. Do they have value?


The idea that bitcoin has a real value at the moment is absurd. Its just a "handfull" group of people who know about it and it is useless for the most part. If you dont search activly for places to use your bitcoins you are likely to never find a merchant who accepts them.

That is just wrong. I stumbled over merchants, who accept Bitcoin many times, even if it just a small percentage of all the merchants in the world.

The rules should be set in stone, and not subject to any major modification and by anyone, or that would create a precedent.

Okay then, we'll go back to the original implementation of Bitcoin that had a 33.5MB blocksize.  Satoshi subjected the network to a pretty major modification to the rules when he introduced the 1MB limit. 

And we would not be able to fix bugs.
Anybody who says, we should set things in stone, has no idea how anything works. History shows that every culture, who did something like that, had their downfall.

Strange.... I do 90% of my shoping online and has never seen a merchant accepting bitcoins. Might be because i never search for merchants who accept them but search for those who give me the best deals.

Fact is that you are lucky to even hear about bitcoin if you dont search for it. It is almost never in the news and not talked about among people. Only once this year i have seen an news article about bitcoin and it was only about the blockchain and not the currency.

Bitcoin is kept alive by a small number of people who think bitcoin is much larger than it is. At the moment it is just a beta test of the blockchain tech. Nothing else.

[DooMAD]

The rules should be set in stone, and not subject to any major modification and by anyone, or that would create a precedent.

Okay then, we'll go back to the original implementation of Bitcoin that had a 33.5MB blocksize.  Satoshi subjected the network to a pretty major modification to the rules when he introduced the 1MB limit.  

And we would not be able to fix bugs.
Anybody who says, we should set things in stone, has no idea how anything works. History shows that every culture, who did something like that, had their downfall.

And if you want things set in stone, its odd that you'd pick an open source project where anyone can alter the code.  Maybe all the people who see Bitcoin as some private little club for money-worshipping elites should think more carefully about their next investment.

Just to make things clear... if you ever want to see +1000$/BTC.. and even moar!

What if not all of us are completely obsessed with the fiat value of our bitcoins?

Mass adoption will not improve bitcoin's value, it is quite the opposite actually, it will likely flood and drown it.

What if the real "value" isn't how much you can sell it for in fiat, but the potential it holds to change the world for the better by including everyone?

But this mass thing is so not going to happen anyway, even if you "scale it" in advance. Sry but wake up, in its current form, bitcoin is out of the reach of regular sheeple.

And I'm sure you'd like to keep it that way.

But it's its scarcity both in cap and transactions that will allow it to surpass any regular investment.

I mean fuck look at the damned financial markets all around the world that are on the edge of a massive collapse!

We should be surfing that wave if it was not for the community tearing one another over technical things it does not even fully understand!

Okay, we get it, you think the sole purpose of all this is an investment to make you rich.  Good for you.  Oddly enough, not everyone agrees.

Stop worrying about scaling and all the technical fuss that you will never grasp anyway,

Patches, bug fix, or next gen 2nd/3rd/etc layers solutions, will come in due time and with fair testing.

Translation:  "GTFO my chain, peasant"

For now, it is its robustness against human miscalculations, its decentralization, its permission-less-ness and its network's security that matters.

If it's permissionless, why are you trying to tell us what to do?  Makes about as much sense as using an open source project when you want things set in stone.  A permissionless system doesn't suit your goal.  Again, choose your next investment more carefully.

Why always this urge of Quantitative Easing everything?

That is so wrong on so many levels and in total opposition with bitcoin's fundamentals.

Show me in the whitepaper where it says we have to have a 1MB limit for the sole purpose of making you wealthy.

So bitcoin is bound not to be free to transact with. The mining fee market should settle as the blocks gets filled.

That is what it takes for miners that will eventually see their block reward drop to zero to secure the system!

How about you stop putting words in the miners' mouths and let them decide?  I think they're good enough at math to know that more transactions potentially equals more fees and higher revenues.

It's time to be greedy and defend our safe-haven against these social attacks!

Clearly we have very different views on what the fundamental purpose of Bitcoin is.  I personally find your views quite repugnant.  But ultimately it doesn't matter what you or I think.  This is a numbers game.  We'll see who has the greater numbers at the end of it all.  I suspect the answer is obvious, though.  If you want Bitcoin to benefit a small minority more than it benefits the majority, the problem with that is that the majority will be against you.