The tide is turning: Which one is the alt coin now?

[Muhammed Zakir]

The people will decide if bitcoin core or bitcoin XT will be the alt coin. But in my opinion bitcoin XT will be the future of bitcoin, bigger blocks allow innovation within the bitcoin space.

Bigger blocks with questionable codes? Bitcoin Core will soon support >1 MB maximum block size. A good solution is not yet found but at least, it will be increased temporarily.

Edit: I prefer BIP 100. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1161622.0

Most people support bigger blocks, and the major one who doesn't is BlockStream which controls 3 of the 5 bitcoin core developers.

Blockstream does not control them, they are just working in Blockstream.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1161611.msg12239944#msg12239944

BlockStream is controlling them, here various sources that confirm it https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3hksre/blockstream_employee_asking_to_remove_gavin_from/?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gmkak/the_blockstream_business_plan/?

They might not "control" them in the sense of blackmailing them but they  control them financially.

These are speculations, not valid proofs. I am asking for valid proofs.

Funny, that someone who spreads the blacklisting lie, which can be proven very easily, now demands valid proof for something that is not that easily proven.
But maybe, that is just because you are another hypocrite?

I did not spread a lie, at least, no knowingly. I and DooMad already ended a peaceful conversation yesterday. There was no lie!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1144606.msg12228109#msg12228109

They don't just work for them, they are among the founders.
Obviously they will do what's in the best interest of their business.
I'm sure they think their plan is good for both Bitcoin and their
business, but not everyone agrees, to say the least.

Agreed.

Just to say again, sidechain needs bigger blocks for its existence.

[1713923836]

1713923836

[Muhammed Zakir]

XT is not an alt coin...it's just a new system. I don't know why Theymos or anyone else considers this an alt coin. It sounds like a passive aggressive attempt to minimize conversation about XT on the main Bitcoin forum but the bitcoin that uses core will be the same bitcoin that uses XT. From the perspective of the coin or the currency, it's the same.

Also Sprach Zarathustra, great name, really great name!

XT is alt when it hardforks as it does not has consensus and XT topics are allowed in this forum but topics discussing only about XT are moved into Altcoin board.

[turvarya]

The people will decide if bitcoin core or bitcoin XT will be the alt coin. But in my opinion bitcoin XT will be the future of bitcoin, bigger blocks allow innovation within the bitcoin space.

Bigger blocks with questionable codes? Bitcoin Core will soon support >1 MB maximum block size. A good solution is not yet found but at least, it will be increased temporarily.

Edit: I prefer BIP 100. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1161622.0

Most people support bigger blocks, and the major one who doesn't is BlockStream which controls 3 of the 5 bitcoin core developers.

Blockstream does not control them, they are just working in Blockstream.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1161611.msg12239944#msg12239944

BlockStream is controlling them, here various sources that confirm it https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3hksre/blockstream_employee_asking_to_remove_gavin_from/?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gmkak/the_blockstream_business_plan/?

They might not "control" them in the sense of blackmailing them but they  control them financially.

These are speculations, not valid proofs. I am asking for valid proofs.

Funny, that someone who spreads the blacklisting lie, which can be proven very easily, now demands valid proof for something that is not that easily proven.
But maybe, that is just because you are another hypocrite?

I did not spread a lie, at least, no knowingly. I and DooMad already ended a peaceful conversation yesterday. There was no lie!

Nice to see, that you came to reason, still, next time check your facts. The whole blacklisting thing was torn apart shortly before it started and there are still people, who believe it. It is ridiculous how many people spend their time, trying to get the facts right, just because some individual started a stupid thread and copied some code, he doesn't understand.

XT is not an alt coin...it's just a new system. I don't know why Theymos or anyone else considers this an alt coin. It sounds like a passive aggressive attempt to minimize conversation about XT on the main Bitcoin forum but the bitcoin that uses core will be the same bitcoin that uses XT. From the perspective of the coin or the currency, it's the same.

Also Sprach Zarathustra, great name, really great name!

XT is alt when it hardforks as it does not has consensus and XT topics are allowed in this forum but topics discussing only about XT are moved into Altcoin board.

Consensus became such a stupid buzzword. It can mean many things, but I don't think, it really was meant as consensus of a handful of core devs. Maybe someone who has been in the space longer than me, could show us, if Satoshi ever spoke about another definition of consensus than POW.

[Muhammed Zakir]

-snip-
Consensus became such a stupid buzzword. It can mean many things, but I don't think, it really was meant as consensus of a handful of core devs.

Nope.

Maybe someone who has been in the space longer than me, could show us, if Satoshi ever spoke about another definition of consensus than POW.

Although, we don't know whether this is real Satoshi or not, this is an interesting post. Maybe, "Satoshi Nakamoto" is an "idea" rather than a "person".

I have been following the recent block size debates through the mailing list.  I had hoped the debate would resolve and that a fork proposal would achieve widespread consensus.  However with the formal release of Bitcoin XT 0.11A, this looks unlikely to happen, and so I am forced to share my concerns about this very dangerous fork.

The developers of this pretender-Bitcoin claim to be following my original vision, but nothing could be further from the truth.  When I designed Bitcoin, I designed it in such a way as to make future modifications to the consensus rules difficult without near unanimous agreement.  Bitcoin was designed to be protected from the influence of charismatic leaders, even if their name is Gavin Andresen, Barack Obama, or Satoshi Nakamoto.  Nearly everyone has to agree on a change, and they have to do it without being forced or pressured into it.  By doing a fork in this way, these developers are violating the "original vision" they claim to honour.

They use my old writings to make claims about what Bitcoin was supposed to be.  However I acknowledge that a lot has changed since that time, and new knowledge has been gained that contradicts some of my early opinions.  For example I didn't anticipate pooled mining and its effects on the security of the network.  Making Bitcoin a competitive monetary system while also preserving its security properties is not a trivial problem, and we should take more time to come up with a robust solution.  I suspect we need a better incentive for users to run nodes instead of relying solely on altruism.

If two developers can fork Bitcoin and succeed in redefining what "Bitcoin" is, in the face of widespread technical criticism and through the use of populist tactics, then I will have no choice but to declare Bitcoin a failed project.  Bitcoin was meant to be both technically and socially robust.  This present situation has been very disappointing to watch unfold.

Satoshi Nakamoto

[Sourgummies]

The problem with that post by Satoshi is it can not be verified. So for that reason I consider it to be outside the debate. Not a XT fan but I think its not helping things to use it in the discussion.

[dothebeats]

-snip
Although, we don't know whether this is real Satoshi or not, this is an interesting post. Maybe, "Satoshi Nakamoto" is an "idea" rather than a "person".
-snip-

This is quite interesting. If the name "Satoshi Nakamoto" is just an idea, then who really created bitcoin in the first place? To have written such a code like this, I'm sure the person is well-educated in terms of programming, cryptography, politics, economy and society. I mean, bitcoin's concept is perfectly created.

The problem with that post by Satoshi is it can not be verified. So for that reason I consider it to be outside the debate. Not a XT fan but I think its not helping things to use it in the discussion.

Agreed. The 'Satoshi' in this instance couldn't even provide a PGP key to verify that it is indeed him.

[Muhammed Zakir]

The problem with that post by Satoshi is it can not be verified. So for that reason I consider it to be outside the debate. Not a XT fan but I think its not helping things to use it in the discussion.

-snip-
Agreed. The 'Satoshi' in this instance couldn't even provide a PGP key to verify that it is indeed him.

I guess Satoshi never signed using PGP key. http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/32829545/

3. While the email is not signed, and there are a number of PGP keys listed
on key servers for him (to vary addresses), he didnt sign any emails with
any PGP keys.

[brg444]

The problem with that post by Satoshi is it can not be verified. So for that reason I consider it to be outside the debate. Not a XT fan but I think its not helping things to use it in the discussion.

That's the whole point.

Trust ideas, not men.

[unamis76]

This is not the "majority"... The majority is seen by the number of blocks mined supporting certain BIP. As for reconsideration if XT is an altcoin or not... I also agree it should be reconsidered.

[nutildah]

XT is the altcoin.

Sorry, what is the market cap of XT again?

Why don't you get back to me after it reaches $1 billion, then we can talk seriously.

Gavin and Mike are obviously now more driven by profit than the desire to see bitcoin succeed. If they wanted bitcoin to succeed, they would have kept negotiations going with BITCOIN instead of breaking off the pack to produce just another altcoin.

You think merchants, vendors and anybody else who actually uses bitcoin as a currency (which is what gives it value) want to change their infrastructure to make it BitcoinXT compatible? I assure you, they do not. They already went through pains to integrate DOGE, BLK and DASH into their systems, now they have to integrate XT, too? Its too much and the scene is obviously becoming unglued.

Gavin is just unnecessarily introducing confusion and chaos into an already very chaotic and uncertain industry. When you see that he is backed by a dozen or so CEOs who think BitcoinXT = greater profitability for their own pockets, the reasoning becomes apparent: Gavin is only in it for the money.

BitcoinXT will fail. If it succeeds, I will stop posting here. Right now it has no track record and no value, so it has a long, long way to go to prove itself.

[Klestin]

XT is the altcoin.
Sorry, what is the market cap of XT again?

Why don't you get back to me after it reaches $1 billion, then we can talk seriously.
[SNIP]
BitcoinXT will fail. If it succeeds, I will stop posting here. Right now it has no track record and no value, so it has a long, long way to go to prove itself.

You seem quite confused.  XT is a client, not a coin.  All transactions are compatible with Core and XT.  We are a long way away from a fork due to block size cap change, and IF and when that occurs, Core and XT will very likely be on the same page in regards to the change.

The only change in XT that is related to the fork is the block size cap increase - an issue that seems to be fairly well resolved now.  The increase is going to happen, whether it takes the form of BIP 100 or BIP 101 (or another form).

The other changes in XT have nothing whatsoever to do with the potential fork.  Once again, XT is a client, not a coin.

There are several proposals to increase the block size cap. The choice of XT vs Core is being confused with the choice of BIP 100 vs BIP 101 vs other options.  Don't be confused.

[Carlton Banks]

alt client 

[Habeler876]

imho, if the community continues to behave like this, separating and arguing which one is alt and which is not, they are both on the way to become sh*tcoins that noone wants.
Also, pushing the notion of alt client has no logic in it; if it's alt client, what is its coin other than alt coin?! Makes no sence to me..

[nutildah]

XT is the altcoin.
Sorry, what is the market cap of XT again?

Why don't you get back to me after it reaches $1 billion, then we can talk seriously.
[SNIP]
BitcoinXT will fail. If it succeeds, I will stop posting here. Right now it has no track record and no value, so it has a long, long way to go to prove itself.

You seem quite confused.  XT is a client, not a coin.  All transactions are compatible with Core and XT.  We are a long way away from a fork due to block size cap change, and IF and when that occurs, Core and XT will very likely be on the same page in regards to the change.

The only change in XT that is related to the fork is the block size cap increase - an issue that seems to be fairly well resolved now.  The increase is going to happen, whether it takes the form of BIP 100 or BIP 101 (or another form).

The other changes in XT have nothing whatsoever to do with the potential fork.  Once again, XT is a client, not a coin.

There are several proposals to increase the block size cap. The choice of XT vs Core is being confused with the choice of BIP 100 vs BIP 101 vs other options.  Don't be confused.

Um, you just made things way more confusing, thanks! Why the new name, then? What's with OP's post and title then? He and everybody else (except you, obviously) who commented on it must be _completely_ confused.

OK I get it, so XT won't be an altcoin until the fork happens. OK fair enough. And when that happens, there will still be BTC and a bunch of altcoins. Nice political manuvering though, A for effort.

[nutildah]

imho, if the community continues to behave like this, separating and arguing which one is alt and which is not, they are both on the way to become sh*tcoins that noone wants.
Also, pushing the notion of alt client has no logic in it; if it's alt client, what is its coin other than alt coin?! Makes no sence to me..

IMHO Bitcoin doesn't need to prove anything. It has proven itself; it will not become a "shitcoin that no one wants" any time in the near future.

We just had some pretty notable breakthroughs in terms of cryptocurrency adaptations, and now Mike & Gavin want to tear up the script and start over on Page 1. They are shooting all of us in the foot. The worst part is that they are using the bitcoin name. Most other alts were courteous enough to come up with their own name. Its obvious Mike & Gavin are just trying to ride on bitcoin's coat tails, which is sad, because it demonstrates their greed has no bounds.

Meanwhile they are fragmenting the market and community, and all they are really creating is a cheap buy-in price for BTC, I'm pretty certain time will tell. So I am not worried about BTC's future, just annoyed at the simplicity of human psychology. Even our "heroes" are bound to its limits.

[ArticMine]

If this mess continues there is the possibility that both "Core" and "XT" could become alt-coins.

[Carlton Banks]

 

[nutildah]

If this mess continues there is the possibility that both "Core" and "XT" could become alt-coins.

Its not going to continue. Price of BTC is already back up to $222. I highly doubt - though I am no financial advisor - that it will break below $200. Too many people buying in at $200 up to $225.

If both Core and XT became altcoins, what would be the main coin? LTC?

[jonald_fyookball]

XT is the altcoin.
Sorry, what is the market cap of XT again?

Why don't you get back to me after it reaches $1 billion, then we can talk seriously.
[SNIP]
BitcoinXT will fail. If it succeeds, I will stop posting here. Right now it has no track record and no value, so it has a long, long way to go to prove itself.

You seem quite confused.  XT is a client, not a coin.  All transactions are compatible with Core and XT.  We are a long way away from a fork due to block size cap change, and IF and when that occurs, Core and XT will very likely be on the same page in regards to the change.

The only change in XT that is related to the fork is the block size cap increase - an issue that seems to be fairly well resolved now.  The increase is going to happen, whether it takes the form of BIP 100 or BIP 101 (or another form).

The other changes in XT have nothing whatsoever to do with the potential fork.  Once again, XT is a client, not a coin.

There are several proposals to increase the block size cap. The choice of XT vs Core is being confused with the choice of BIP 100 vs BIP 101 vs other options.  Don't be confused.

Um, you just made things way more confusing, thanks! Why the new name, then? What's with OP's post and title then? He and everybody else (except you, obviously) who commented on it must be _completely_ confused.

OK I get it, so XT won't be an altcoin until the fork happens. OK fair enough. And when that happens, there will still be BTC and a bunch of altcoins. Nice political manuvering though, A for effort.

I guess you haven't been following the blocksize debate very closely.

Let me summarize for you:

Core developers refused to raise the blocksize because of their involvement with
a private company called Blockstream who took $21M in venture capital and
wants to build an alternate payment network on top of an artificially limted 1mb bitcoin.

Meanwhile the rest of the bitcoin world is calling for bigger blocks.  Gavin questionably
decided to team up with Mike Hearn, who while brilliant, has said some dumbass
authoritarian things in the past so no one trusts him.  Unfortunately, they are only ones who released
the a client supports big blocks (called XT) that everyone hates
(but mostly just because they don't trust Hearn).
However, pools are signing blocks with support for one of the BIPs
and probably we'll have bigger blocks soon, with or without XT.

True story.

[ArticMine]

If this mess continues there is the possibility that both "Core" and "XT" could become alt-coins.

Its not going to continue. Price of BTC is already back up to $222. I highly doubt - though I am no financial advisor - that it will break below $200. Too many people buying in at $200 up to $225.

If both Core and XT became altcoins, what would be the main coin? LTC?

If the blocksize debate is resolved and Bitcoin is allowed to scale then confidence will be restored and Bitcoin will likely exceed its previous all time high and continue as the dominant coin. The longer this fight continues the more confidence is eroded and the probalilty of both "Core" and "XT" becoming alt-coins increases. Money is after all fundamentally about confidence.

As for which alt would replace Bitcoin in such a scenario. There are way more opinions on the subject than there are alt-coins. My take is that if the problem in Bitcoin is caused by a fixed blocksize limit baked into the protocol, it would make sense to look at those alt-coins that do not have this problem.