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Author Topic: Bitcoin XT - Officially #REKT (also goes for BIP101 fraud)  (Read 378923 times)
marcus_of_augustus
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December 01, 2015, 02:51:06 AM
 #3441


I would have serious doubts that bitstamp even runs one single full node of their own ... probably outsourced.

you *seriously* beleive that a major bitcoin exchange does not operate thier own node? Something that can be achieved for <$100 with a standalone device and uses <64GB of storage?


get real. you can buy a 1TB harddrive for $50 today and store BIP101-enabled blockchain onto it for years to come. then pay $50 more for a 4TB drive to handle a few more years of growth.  or are you still using the same computer you owned in 1999 with its 1.6GHz singlecore, 512MB ram, and 60GB HDD (all cutting edge)?

I know of several large bitcoin trading institutions that outsource btc operations to API providers ... or worse. It has nothing to do with hardware, they can't be bothered with the IT sysadmin overhead which for them is incomprehensible geek-speak, they are purely money-shufflers.

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December 01, 2015, 02:52:22 AM
 #3442


I would have serious doubts that bitstamp even runs one single full node of their own ... probably outsourced.

you *seriously* beleive that a major bitcoin exchange does not operate thier own node? Something that can be achieved for <$100 with a standalone device and uses <64GB of storage?


get real. you can buy a 1TB harddrive for $50 today and store BIP101-enabled blockchain onto it for years to come. then pay $50 more for a 4TB drive to handle a few more years of growth.  or are you still using the same computer you owned in 1999 with its 1.6GHz singlecore, 512MB ram, and 60GB HDD (all cutting edge)?

Running Bitcoin core is another thing than building a complete software stack for an exchange.

There's a reason companies like Chain, BlockCypher, etc. exist. I wouldn't be surprised to know that Bitstamp uses one of these companies API to support their operations. Hell they run BitGo's multi-sig wallet code. All that jazz strapped onto Bitcoinica footprints. What could go wrong heh  Roll Eyes

Mike Hearn has often hinted to this himself. There is important developer's cost into building a full fledged node software. Specialization in that regard is a real concern.

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December 01, 2015, 03:10:15 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2015, 03:35:19 AM by VeritasSapere
 #3443

You keep saying that it is opt-in however it is only opt-in for the sender not the reciever,
Not so, the merchant can simply ignore the transaction until it is confirmed; as they already do for all manner of unusual, nonstandard, unconfirmed input transactions, etc. or otherwise their acceptance of zero conf is no more secure than RBF (if it ever is...) ... and doing this is relatively harmless, because Opt-in RBF transactions do not need to suffer significant confirmation delays.
My point still stands and like I said before ignoring a transaction until it is confirmed is not suitable for the retail environment I was using as an example.

For me it is not even a question of greater expertise since it has also become about ideology relating to economics and politics, these are questions that most technical experts are not specifically trained to answer. I think that some of these more fundamental questions like the blocksize for instance are more concerned with politics and economics then computer science,
You are making a strong and unjustified assumption about the skills and background of people maintaining Bitcoin Core. I think you may be making the fallacy of assuming that a group excellent in a particular area must necessarily be weak in another specific area.
It is impossible to be an expert in an unlimited amount of fields, I think that multi disciplinary approaches do lead to the best understanding in most cases, however specialization to a certain extend is required. We can be good at many things but only masters at some.

However in regards to my political arguments it is irrelevant how qualified in any field Core is, A benign dictatorship is still a dictatorship, we could debate whether it would be an oligarchy, technocracy or a form of totalitarianism. It still does not change the underlying nature of what would define the governance under Core without significant support for alternative implementations. I can understand that software development needs to be "dictatorial" in its internal decision making process. This is why distributing development allows it to become more "democratic" and more in line with the ethos of decentralization within Bitcoin.

The community, even the most active segment, is fairly large and diverse in many ways-- much more so then, for example, the persons working on XT*. Beyond the expected CS and distributed systems PHDs, the community includes people with expertise in mathematics, economics, financial markets, ... Peter Todd has a fine arts degree. Skepticism about the viability of the Bitcoin system absent effective meaningful block size limits can be found in peer reviewed academic publications in economics venues. Negative effects on mining fairness are both predicted by simulation, and borne out in field trials on test networks.
Like I said before it is irrelevant how benign or qualified Core might be, I will still vote according to my own conscience. The problem might just be that Core is not effectively communicating this I am open to that idea. I might not be a technical expert but I have spent most of my time over the last year learning about cryptocurrency, so if I am simply failing to understand this then Core might have a problem with communication. However I suspect that the conclusions of some of your research would depend on the ideological understandings of these definitions. For instance I consider pools to be comparible to a form of representive democracy for the miners, I suspect that this would effect your conclusions on "miner centralization". If we accept the continued existence of 10-20 pools for miners to freely choose from, which is how Bitcoin functions today.

[*As a  vague yardstick, there are ~19 contributors to Bitcoin core with individually more commit count activity in the last six months then all contributors to XT had in both XT and Core combined. Commit count is a crappy metric and you can figure that is off by a large factor in either direction; but this isn't really a comparable; and this is in spite of non-stop attacks that make working on Bitcoin really demoralizing]
I do hope you keep your spirit up, and I would consider it to be a shame if you did stop working on Bitcoin if BIP101 forked the network like you said you would. I would however absolutely respect your right to continue supporting Core if it chose not to adopt BIP101 and continue to exist as the smaller chain, if you are correct in your theories then it should become the dominant chain again over the long run.

And beyond the expertise, we're speaking about a question where in the absence of perfect knowledge we conducted the experiment: We raise the soft blocksize target from 250k to 750k and saw tremendously negative effects: substantial declines in node count (in spite large growths in userbase; and to brag, somewhat heroic efforts to increase software performance), substantial increases in mining centralization, substantial increases in Bitcoin businesses relying on third party APIs rather than running nodes (hugely magnifying systemic risks).
I am somewhat doubtfull whether you can definitively causally link all of these factors to the increased transaction volume, there are also many different variables at play, including increased decentralization because of adoption.

It is a tug of war of these different variables so to speak. I do think that the blocksize should ideally be a balancing act, with the limit acting as a precautionary measure, meaning that the blocks should not become consistently full over longer periods of time, I would disagree with such a change in the economic policy of Bitcoin, this was also never supposed to be the intention of this limit, there are also concerns over this somewhat breaking the social contract as well.

And today we are left at a point where the bandwidth consumption of an ordinary Bitcoin node just barely fits within the 350GB/mo transfer cap of a high end, "best available in most of the US" broadband service.
I have done some research to test this statement and I do not think it is true. Comcast has an available option for having no data limit, while AT&T has a service where they "do not enforce" the data cap, I know that is a bit weird but that is what I found out. Time Warner also does not have data caps on its more popular plans and Verizon also does not have data caps. These are the top four ISP's in the US, the situation in Europe is also getting better like the US. To be fair these are relatively recent developments, so I would understand how you might have been mistaken about these facts.

We cannot know to what degree the load increase was causative, but none of the metrics had positive outcomes; and this is a reason to proceed only with the greatest care and consideration.
This I can agree with, however care and consideration can of course also be taken to far.

Especially against a backdrop where Bitcoin's fundamental utility as a money are being attacked by efforts to regulate people's ability to transact and to blacklist coins; efforts that critically depend on the existence of centralized choke-points which scale beyond the system's scalability necessarily creates.
This I actually disagree with, I also see a threat of centralized choke points however it would more likely be due to an increased reliance on a limited number of third parties because of the presently restricted blocksize.

You're right though that the question is substantially political: A fully centralized system could easily handle gigabyte blocks with the work we've do to make megabyte blocks barely viable in a highly decentralized world. Such a system could also happily institute excess inflation, censor transactions, and other moves "for the good of the system" and "to assure widest adoption".
You are arguing a straw man here, I believe that increasing the blocksize is what will be best for decentralization over the long run. Leaving the one megabyte restriction in place presents greater risks of centralization and obsolescence.

If Bitcoin is to survive in the long run we just stand by the principles we believe in, and which make the system valuable in the first place. -- Even against substantial coercive pressure.  Otherwise the transparent system of autonomously enforced rules risks devolving into another politically controlled trust-based instrument of expedience that we see with legacy monetary instruments.
I have the same concern, however I perceive Core as being the most likely point of centralization at this point, yet it seems like we do share some of the same principles yet we are on opposite sides of this debate.

Furthermore when blocks do fill up we now already have child pays for parent for unsticking transactions without the negative consequences
We do not. CPFP has substantial complexities that prevent it from actually working on the network today; and using it has large overheads. It will be a good additional tool to have, but it does not replace RBF.
I believe that I have used CPFP for some very practical reosons, I thought it was a pretty good feature at least from the perspective of the user. One of the many things I can congratulate Core for developing.

In regards to you saying that Gavin is not active in development I certainly do have a different perspective, considering
You can have a different perspective; but you cannot have your own facts. This is a question of objective fact. But you mistake my comment for an insult, it wasn't intended as one-- who am I to judge what someone else spends their time on? But rather an observation the it would have been surprising to see a contribution there.
You somewhat missed the point I made about Gavin, I consider him to have contributed a lot for the development of the Bitcoin protocol by his actions to increase the blocksize, which is an important issue to me.

which can only be done significantly by increasing the blocksize.
An action which you could only contemplate due to the work of myself and others who believe that the BIP101 approach would be significantly damaging. I think it's likely that it will be increased in the future, but in a way only that preserves Bitcoin's properties as a decenteralized P2P electronic cash, rather than disregarding them or undermining them.
Saying that it will likely be increased in the future is not good enough, which is why we are at this impasse in the first place. You can not expect us to simply trust Core to increase the blocksize when we do have a fundamental ideological disagreement about allowing the blocks to fill up. If you where to take the smart political approach you should announce a date for an increased blocksize before January, this would allow Core to maintain control for longer which I would hope would be for benign reasons like helping to ease the transition into having multiple implementations to distribute the power of development more.

It should be an increase that meets BIP101 in the middle, it would need to be a true comprise. BIP100 might be able to serve this role, even with the thirty two megabyte limit that still exists, at least it would set a precedent. I am being generous here because I would prefer to see consensus through compromise compared to the possibility of a split.
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December 01, 2015, 03:17:58 AM
 #3444


I would have serious doubts that bitstamp even runs one single full node of their own ... probably outsourced.

you *seriously* beleive that a major bitcoin exchange does not operate thier own node? Something that can be achieved for <$100 with a standalone device and uses <64GB of storage?


get real. you can buy a 1TB harddrive for $50 today and store BIP101-enabled blockchain onto it for years to come. then pay $50 more for a 4TB drive to handle a few more years of growth.  or are you still using the same computer you owned in 1999 with its 1.6GHz singlecore, 512MB ram, and 60GB HDD (all cutting edge)?

Ah yes, the classic argumentum ad Amazon fallacy, wherein some fuckwit proffers his worthless opinion of the form 'hurr durr cheap harddrives amirite.'

You still don't understand the primary constraint on larger blocks is upstream bandwidth/verification latency (not storage)?

How did you manage to miss the last 9 months of discussion?  Or did you make up your mind and stop accepting inconvenient facts when the Great Schism started?


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December 01, 2015, 03:23:27 AM
 #3445

Wrong, wrong and more wrong.
The 1MB limit was put in place in 2010, not 2008. Actual bitcoin network upload speed (the real bottleneck) measurements show upload bandwidth for nodes at edge of network is growing at closer to 17-25%. (This disregards data caps for total bandwidth available also).

Bitcoin also had a 250kb limit at the time, implemented as a soft-rule by miners rather than a hard protocol rule. If you take the current system with a 2010 client (and much less a circa 2010 computer) it will likely not keep up with the network (if you try, let me know in a month when you complete the initial block download... Smiley Tongue ). The limits then were already set in a forward looking manner and we have been scrambling to keep up with the network as it's grown into them.

get real. you can buy a 1TB harddrive for $50 today and store BIP101-enabled blockchain onto it for years to come. then pay $50 more for a 4TB drive to handle a few more years of growth.  or are you still using the same computer you owned in 1999 with its 1.6GHz singlecore, 512MB ram, and 60GB HDD (all cutting edge)?
This is ignorant of the total costs of operating a reliable production grade system in a commercial environment... including the need to be nowhere near capacity at any time even when run on underspeced/io-starved/misconfigured mystery-meat hosting in order to make sure that nothing especially clever or difficult is required so that you can employ commonly available ham-sandwiches as devops.

This may not be as true for businesses that really consider Bitcoin to be central to their business-- but, as a bitcoin-seriousness proxy, how many non-mining Bitcoin companies do you know of that mine and participate in the network consensus? (I know of only one, ahem; and it seems like in not to long the same may apply for running full nodes)... Ultimately if the system is only usable in a way that preserves its political and security properties by those who are those who are the "most serious" (and politically motivated) then it will not be a success as a decentralized system.  It's not good enough to be accessible to some, to achieve decentralization it has to be broadly accessible.

There are many factors standing in the way of that; including indifference and a lack of education but resource impacts absolutely play a part of it. You don't see people widely outsourcing their DHCP daemons, though they're incidental to their business. Why isn't a Bitcoin node as invisible as a DHCP server? Go show me a DHCP server that uses tens of gigs of storage, hundreds of gigs of transfer, gigabytes of ram, significant amounts of CPU, etc. and all these demands constantly growing.

One of the reasons I think that XT has been as much of a flop as it has, so quickly, is that many of the people persuaded by the eloquent rants of misleading simplicity went and actually ran a Bitcoin node; and encountered the same costs and annoyances that users have been complaining about heavily since the soft limits were cranked... and lost their conviction. I know this is true for some, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were a more general pattern.(I also suspect that many, though probably not all, the people complaining about DOS attacks weren't just seeing the ordinary load that every other node sees; including the "attack like" traffic from people trying to trace transaction origins-- even I thought someone was attacking Core nodes and changed to identify as XT and saw no difference in traffic)... plus the whole, "unlimited blocks are great, so long as someone else is paying the cost", which doesn't actually work...

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December 01, 2015, 03:54:00 AM
 #3446

If nothing else, lowering the consensus threshold to 75% in his fork caused Gavin's credibility to plummet in my eyes. I don't like to use polemic words like "coup" but it isn't entirely inappropriate
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December 01, 2015, 07:21:26 AM
 #3447

Handling the amount of Visa transactions of 2015, by 2032, will make Bitcoin obsolete then because it will not be able to handle enough volume (i.e. BIP101 solves nothing).
You claim that increasing the blocksize according to the schedule outlined in BIP101 solves nothing yet it does increases the throughput of the Bitcoin blockchain by a factor of eight thousand, compared to where it is now over a period of twenty years. Practically this makes a huge difference, the solution does not need to be perfect, be careful to not fall into the trap of the engineers nirvana fallacy.
[/quote]
So you're telling me that we should choose this "solution" just because it changes the amount of volume that Bitcoin can process even though there is a better solution (LN)? That makes, no sense at all.


you *seriously* beleive that a major bitcoin exchange does not operate thier own node? Something that can be achieved for <$100 with a standalone device and uses <64GB of storage?

get real. you can buy a 1TB harddrive for $50 today and store BIP101-enabled blockchain onto it for years to come. then pay $50 more for a 4TB drive to handle a few more years of growth.  or are you still using the same computer you owned in 1999 with its 1.6GHz singlecore, 512MB ram, and 60GB HDD (all cutting edge)?
Ah yes, the classic argumentum ad Amazon fallacy, wherein some fuckwit proffers his worthless opinion of the form 'hurr durr cheap harddrives amirite.'
You still don't understand the primary constraint on larger blocks is upstream bandwidth/verification latency (not storage)?
-snip-
Everyone in the world has access to Amazon prices and everyone in the world has money to spare on big HDD(s) and high speed internet. This logic is definitely not flawed.  Roll Eyes We should not restrict anyone from being able to run a node, nor should we make it much harder (somewhat is acceptable) for those that already are running them, just because a group of 'scoundrel' want to pay for their coffee using Bitcoin.

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December 01, 2015, 08:06:32 AM
 #3448

We should not restrict anyone from being able to run a node, nor should we make it much harder (somewhat is acceptable) for those that already are running them, just because a group of 'scoundrel' want to pay for their coffee using Bitcoin.
Nothing wrong for paying for coffee with Bitcoin or even the bitcoin network. But to whatever extent there is a choice between monetary sovereignty and direct blockchain small retail sales-- the latter can be replaced using a lot of different mechanisms (for coffee? even centralized ones, for godssakes!); and the former cannot...   I don't really think there is a fundamental mutual exclusion, but avoiding it will require being smarter, and not just cramming things in. Bitcoin: It's not a big truck.

Of more concern than "coffee" is transactions which have nothing to do with Bitcoin, transfer no Bitcoin value; and are just stuffing data into the bitcoin network because it's available; and some people have been going around selling the idea of ignoring the Bitcoin currency and saying that the system is just a big public database. This sort of stuff is out of scope for the Bitcoin system and endangers it survival when the cost of carting around a zillion 'stock transfer' zero value txouts overwhelms the public's interest in Bitcoin. ... and they've been a major driver for calls to remove Bitcoin's resource controls. I think totally separate assets need to have their own networks and fates, or otherwise one becomes an externalized cost on the other and can act as dead weight that removes the viability of the combined system.
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December 01, 2015, 08:07:43 AM
 #3449

Wrong, wrong and more wrong.
The 1MB limit was put in place in 2010, not 2008. Actual bitcoin network upload speed (the real bottleneck) measurements show upload bandwidth for nodes at edge of network is growing at closer to 17-25%. (This disregards data caps for total bandwidth available also).

Bitcoin also had a 250kb limit at the time, implemented as a soft-rule by miners rather than a hard protocol rule. If you take the current system with a 2010 client (and much less a circa 2010 computer) it will likely not keep up with the network (if you try, let me know in a month when you complete the initial block download... Smiley Tongue ). The limits then were already set in a forward looking manner and we have been scrambling to keep up with the network as it's grown into them.

get real. you can buy a 1TB harddrive for $50 today and store BIP101-enabled blockchain onto it for years to come. then pay $50 more for a 4TB drive to handle a few more years of growth.  or are you still using the same computer you owned in 1999 with its 1.6GHz singlecore, 512MB ram, and 60GB HDD (all cutting edge)?
This is ignorant of the total costs of operating a reliable production grade system in a commercial environment... including the need to be nowhere near capacity at any time even when run on underspeced/io-starved/misconfigured mystery-meat hosting in order to make sure that nothing especially clever or difficult is required so that you can employ commonly available ham-sandwiches as devops.

This may not be as true for businesses that really consider Bitcoin to be central to their business-- but, as a bitcoin-seriousness proxy, how many non-mining Bitcoin companies do you know of that mine and participate in the network consensus? (I know of only one, ahem; and it seems like in not to long the same may apply for running full nodes)... Ultimately if the system is only usable in a way that preserves its political and security properties by those who are those who are the "most serious" (and politically motivated) then it will not be a success as a decentralized system.  It's not good enough to be accessible to some, to achieve decentralization it has to be broadly accessible.

There are many factors standing in the way of that; including indifference and a lack of education but resource impacts absolutely play a part of it. You don't see people widely outsourcing their DHCP daemons, though they're incidental to their business. Why isn't a Bitcoin node as invisible as a DHCP server? Go show me a DHCP server that uses tens of gigs of storage, hundreds of gigs of transfer, gigabytes of ram, significant amounts of CPU, etc. and all these demands constantly growing.

One of the reasons I think that XT has been as much of a flop as it has, so quickly, is that many of the people persuaded by the eloquent rants of misleading simplicity went and actually ran a Bitcoin node; and encountered the same costs and annoyances that users have been complaining about heavily since the soft limits were cranked... and lost their conviction. I know this is true for some, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were a more general pattern.(I also suspect that many, though probably not all, the people complaining about DOS attacks weren't just seeing the ordinary load that every other node sees; including the "attack like" traffic from people trying to trace transaction origins-- even I thought someone was attacking Core nodes and changed to identify as XT and saw no difference in traffic)... plus the whole, "unlimited blocks are great, so long as someone else is paying the cost", which doesn't actually work...



hmm ...

My computer from 2008 has actually no problem at all keeping up with not just the Bitcoin blockchain but also the Namecoin and Monero blockchains all at the same time. Until August of this year I ran a Bitcoin node on a laptop from 2002 with a Pentium M processor, 1 GB of RAM and a 120 MB SSD. The laptop was so old that it was cheaper to replace the old PATA HDD when it failed with a PATA SSD. The laptop also has a floppy disk drive and a Windows 2000 logo.

Lack of education, indifference are part of the issue. The biggest problem is the replacement of desktop and laptop computers with mobile devices that while perfectly capable are crippled with DRM and propriety operating systems. A iPad in a good example of the latter, and can be far more expensive than a 3 year old laptop with a 1 TB SSD drive.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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December 01, 2015, 08:25:20 AM
 #3450

hmm ...

My computer from 2008 has actually no problem at all keeping up with not just the Bitcoin blockchain but also the Namecoin and Monero blockchains all at the same time. Until August of this year I ran a Bitcoin node on a laptop from 2002 with a Pentium M processor, 1 GB of RAM and a 120 MB SSD. The laptop was so old that it was cheaper to replace the old PATA HDD when it failed with a PATA SSD. The laptop also has a floppy disk drive and a Windows 2000 logo.

Lack of education, indifference are part of the issue. The biggest problem is the replacement of desktop and laptop computers with mobile devices that while perfectly capable are crippled with DRM and propriety operating systems. A iPad in a good example of the latter, and can be far more expensive than a 3 year old laptop with a 1 TB SSD drive.

How much bandwidth is Core using per month? What are your maximum download/upload speeds from your ISP (and how much does it cost)? How many peers are you connected to on a regular basis? Do you have any special settings in your config file (fee rules or connection limits)?

I have dedicated hardware for my node (building computers is a hobby of mine, so I probably go overboard there), yet sharing Bitcoin data with my peers is where I am having issues. I've had to limit the number of peers that my node will allow or my internet service slows to a crawl for other purposes. I pay quite a bit for top tier (enthusiast) internet speeds from a major ISP.

Or, are you simply saying that your old computer can sync the chain at which point you shut it down?

If you aren't the sole controller of your private keys, you don't have any bitcoins.
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December 01, 2015, 08:33:09 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2015, 09:27:06 AM by da2ce7
 #3451

If you think of Bitcoin as an airplane, and the block size limit as the load-limit of the aircraft. -  The block-size debase makes much more sense.

We are talking about changing the _technical_specification_ of the aircraft, not actually scaling the aircraft for greater loads.

BIP101 and the other block size proposals do nothing to actually scale the Bitcoin infrastructure, the only talk about changing the specification for Bitcoin infrastructure.

Of-course if you double the load-limit of a aircraft, it *may* still work, but if you double it again, it will probably fail in a spectacular manner.

The real scaling dose happen, but it isn't lauded, it is the hard CS engineering that upgrade the engines, upgrade the fuselage, etc.

Maybe having the engineers who maintain and build the aircraft setting the technical specification for what the aircraft is capable of safely handling is a prudent approach?

Boeing doesn't have a public vote asking the public what the take-off-load-limt for their aircraft should be; neither should the Bitcoin community have such a vote for Bitcoin protocol. Indeed, for such systems the limits should be set very conservatively.

One off NP-Hard.
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December 01, 2015, 08:35:54 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2015, 08:47:36 AM by ArticMine
 #3452

hmm ...

My computer from 2008 has actually no problem at all keeping up with not just the Bitcoin blockchain but also the Namecoin and Monero blockchains all at the same time. Until August of this year I ran a Bitcoin node on a laptop from 2002 with a Pentium M processor, 1 GB of RAM and a 120 MB SSD. The laptop was so old that it was cheaper to replace the old PATA HDD when it failed with a PATA SSD. The laptop also has a floppy disk drive and a Windows 2000 logo.

Lack of education, indifference are part of the issue. The biggest problem is the replacement of desktop and laptop computers with mobile devices that while perfectly capable are crippled with DRM and propriety operating systems. A iPad in a good example of the latter, and can be far more expensive than a 3 year old laptop with a 1 TB SSD drive.

How much bandwidth is Core using per month? What are your maximum download/upload speeds from your ISP (and how much does it cost)? How many peers are you connected to on a regular basis? Do you have any special settings in your config file (fee rules or connection limits)?

I have dedicated hardware for my node (building computers is a hobby of mine, so I probably go overboard there), yet sharing Bitcoin data with my peers is where I am having issues. I've had to limit the number of peers that my node will allow or my internet service slows to a crawl for other purposes. I pay quite a bit for top tier (enthusiast) internet speeds from a major ISP.

Or, are you simply saying that your old computer can sync the chain at which point you shut it down?

I have 50 mbps down 10 mbps up with no cap residential ADSL. Running all three blockchains as a full node with ports open is about 400 GB per month.

Edit: I added the no cap option for an extra 15 CAD a month, The plan comes with 400 GB of data per month. Cost including a home POTS phone line is 132.50 CAD a month including all taxes.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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December 01, 2015, 08:37:07 AM
 #3453


The tide is turning. Check the votes. The stream will be unblocked; soonish.

Votes?

You believe Bitcoin is a democracy; how adorable.   Wink


 Cheesy

Of course it is. It's neither a Front National movement nor another right or left wing socialist project.
The Tide is Turning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbeLFG6Lglo
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December 01, 2015, 08:54:08 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2015, 09:31:45 AM by Zarathustra
 #3454

Peter R definitely seems to be trolling sometimes. I've stopped taking him seriously long ago. This visualization of BIP101 makes it even look worse than it actually is:
Quote
Visa-2015-level transactions by 2032! Sounds awesome.
Quote
Notice how it says it would take us until 2032 to reach the CURRENT ts/ps of Visa. LOL. Such blocksize increase is futile and will only centralize Bitcoin, this is a fact. We aren't getting nowhere without LN. Get a grip.

Handling the amount of Visa transactions of 2015, by 2032, will make Bitcoin obsolete then because it will not be able to handle enough volume (i.e. BIP101 solves nothing).

Cant' you read? It means that this alone will make it possible to grow like that. More will be possible together with protocol improvements and other measures.
We don't need artificial scarcity:

BeYourOwnBank ; 33 Punkte vor 13 Stunden*

Blockstream/Core are weak and desperate, centralized and fragile.

Their only hope of succeeding is by creating artificial scarcity all around: artificially restricting us from speaking out freely on our forums, artificially restricting us from transacting directly and cheaply on our blockchain and in our mempool.

Their only chance of success is to change everything from being permissionless back into being permissioned: they want us to ask their permission to speak on "their" forums (via their censors), they want us to ask permission to transact on "their" blockchain (via LN), and they want us to compete to pay higher fees to propagate in "their" mempool (via RBF).

They know they are vulnerable and they are running scared.

All Bitcoin has to do to succeed is remain decentralized and anti-fragile and open to everyone.


-----------------

My feeling (not that a feeling is worth much) is that 8GB blocks will be enough. If we really do see that level of adoption (~1 billion transactions per day) there will be a lot of off-chain transactions as well.

In other words, the idea that 1 MB blocks (or 2 or 4 or Cool can be "enough" with layer-2 or offchain solutions is... unrealistic, but that layer-2 or offchain solutions can help Bitcoin get from 1 billion to 10 (or 100) billion transactions per day seems plausible to me.

 chriswilmer, Today at 12:36 AM 


-----------------

    I agree, and even 32MB blocks will allow for 100 TPS on-chain, which is a lot of real-world business, and would support a very healthy BTC price. It is fully reasonable to expect off-chain solutions to take a lot of volume *eventually*. The strategic error is trying to force that outcome before off-chain solutions develop organically and take volume on their own merits.
     
solex, Today at 1:10 AM

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December 01, 2015, 09:11:39 AM
 #3455

So this is the December FUD offensive they were talking about.

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December 01, 2015, 10:12:33 AM
 #3456

If you think of Bitcoin as an airplane, and the block size limit as the load-limit of the aircraft. -  The block-size debase makes much more sense.

We are talking about changing the _technical_specification_ of the aircraft, not actually scaling the aircraft for greater loads.

BIP101 and the other block size proposals do nothing to actually scale the Bitcoin infrastructure, the only talk about changing the specification for Bitcoin infrastructure.

Of-course if you double the load-limit of a aircraft, it *may* still work, but if you double it again, it will probably fail in a spectacular manner.

The real scaling dose happen, but it isn't lauded, it is the hard CS engineering that upgrade the engines, upgrade the fuselage, etc.

Maybe having the engineers who maintain and build the aircraft setting the technical specification for what the aircraft is capable of safely handling is a prudent approach?

Boeing doesn't have a public vote asking the public what the take-off-load-limt for their aircraft should be; neither should the Bitcoin community have such a vote for Bitcoin protocol. Indeed, for such systems the limits should be set very conservatively.

Core: The airplane is getting overloaded.  Time to start auctioning off capacity to the highest bidders.  The rest can go by car, train, ship, or bus.  Or stay home.

Gavinista: I demand you immediately double the load-limit by doubling the airplane's wingspan.  No, you can't do a feasibility test in a wind tunnel first, Because Censorship!  Do it now or we hijack this bitch.

Plot twist: The airplane is in mid-flight over central Greenland.


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December 01, 2015, 11:13:52 AM
 #3457

Oh yes, sry, + bitpay + goldman sachs + the whole Blockchain (ie. not Bitcoin) Allianzzztm!

How's that titty sucking your banking lords working?

Rage more please.

bitcoin =/= bitstamp

They are not the only ones that announced that they will follow BIP101.

What exactly does it mean when Bitstamp says they will 'follow' BIP101?

I mean, the BIP only addresses the generation of blocks, right?  And Bitstamp (as far as I know) does not generate any blocks.

I get the expression of support, but I don't see how they affect the adoption (or not) of BIP101 at all.

Wait until miners will not afford to pay their bills! Things will change.

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December 01, 2015, 12:18:02 PM
Last edit: December 01, 2015, 05:56:27 PM by spartacusrex
 #3458

This thread just keeps on giving..  I'm still undecided if it's in a good way or a baaaad way... Roll Eyes

How about a different approach.

..

The size of the UTXO set is a 'tiny' 1GB.  http://statoshi.info/dashboard/db/unspent-transaction-output-set , and more importantly it grows very slowly.

At 144MB per day (with each block full at current 1mb limit), that's 30x144 = 4.3GB / month of TXNs being fired around the network. (I download more than that in an evening watching netflix..)

These are the only bits that matter.

I have mucked about with the 'pruning mode' in the latest BTCore, and if I may, it just doesn't go far enough.. No disrespect, it's lovely work, but we're just scratching the surface.

I need to be able to run a full, validating, independent node, without any SPV-ness, with around 2GB of space, and my current mid-tier internet connection.    

That's it.

(Discard the un-needed, only put the hash of txn in blocks, put the UTXO merkle root hash in the block, store the UTXO as a new weird dataset type, scrape the spam-dust off and give it to the miners, use a proof-chain (just block headers with valid POW) instead of storing the whole block..  etc etc blah blah.. I dunno.. something!?)

..

There's obviously some very clever people here, so how about it ?

Then big blocks wouldn't be an issue. And we can ALL get along, again..  Smiley
..

ps. #GMAX - don't be depressed.. We need you to be strong. And smart. Hang in there..

Life is Code.
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December 01, 2015, 12:43:45 PM
 #3459

Wrong, wrong and more wrong.
The 1MB limit was put in place in 2010, not 2008. Actual bitcoin network upload speed (the real bottleneck) measurements show upload bandwidth for nodes at edge of network is growing at closer to 17-25%. (This disregards data caps for total bandwidth available also).

Bitcoin also had a 250kb limit at the time, implemented as a soft-rule by miners rather than a hard protocol rule. If you take the current system with a 2010 client (and much less a circa 2010 computer) it will likely not keep up with the network (if you try, let me know in a month when you complete the initial block download... Smiley Tongue ). The limits then were already set in a forward looking manner and we have been scrambling to keep up with the network as it's grown into them.

get real. you can buy a 1TB harddrive for $50 today and store BIP101-enabled blockchain onto it for years to come. then pay $50 more for a 4TB drive to handle a few more years of growth.  or are you still using the same computer you owned in 1999 with its 1.6GHz singlecore, 512MB ram, and 60GB HDD (all cutting edge)?
This is ignorant of the total costs of operating a reliable production grade system in a commercial environment... including the need to be nowhere near capacity at any time even when run on underspeced/io-starved/misconfigured mystery-meat hosting in order to make sure that nothing especially clever or difficult is required so that you can employ commonly available ham-sandwiches as devops.

This may not be as true for businesses that really consider Bitcoin to be central to their business-- but, as a bitcoin-seriousness proxy, how many non-mining Bitcoin companies do you know of that mine and participate in the network consensus? (I know of only one, ahem; and it seems like in not to long the same may apply for running full nodes)... Ultimately if the system is only usable in a way that preserves its political and security properties by those who are those who are the "most serious" (and politically motivated) then it will not be a success as a decentralized system.  It's not good enough to be accessible to some, to achieve decentralization it has to be broadly accessible.

There are many factors standing in the way of that; including indifference and a lack of education but resource impacts absolutely play a part of it. You don't see people widely outsourcing their DHCP daemons, though they're incidental to their business. Why isn't a Bitcoin node as invisible as a DHCP server? Go show me a DHCP server that uses tens of gigs of storage, hundreds of gigs of transfer, gigabytes of ram, significant amounts of CPU, etc. and all these demands constantly growing.

One of the reasons I think that XT has been as much of a flop as it has, so quickly, is that many of the people persuaded by the eloquent rants of misleading simplicity went and actually ran a Bitcoin node; and encountered the same costs and annoyances that users have been complaining about heavily since the soft limits were cranked... and lost their conviction. I know this is true for some, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were a more general pattern.(I also suspect that many, though probably not all, the people complaining about DOS attacks weren't just seeing the ordinary load that every other node sees; including the "attack like" traffic from people trying to trace transaction origins-- even I thought someone was attacking Core nodes and changed to identify as XT and saw no difference in traffic)... plus the whole, "unlimited blocks are great, so long as someone else is paying the cost", which doesn't actually work...

For me this is the strongest argument for small blocks that I have read to date, and I agree with it. It is expensive to run a node. (I'd argue not prohibitively, but thats a matter of opinion).

Despite this I still think we need bigger blocks, and in taking this road I think that the pain Gregory described above would increase. I think this is growing pain though and although its undesirable I don't think its symptomatic of terminal illness.

I absolutely have faith that "development" has some big answers to this, and that protocol/software improvement will be the thing that addresses the challenges we currently face with infrastructure requirements.

Essentially I think we can have it all, and that those that frame the debate as being mutually exclusive are too married to their position to see the big picture.

Bandwidth requirements are a big concern. Full blocks are a big concern. Speculation as to the consequences of these things (an in particular using those hypothetical concerns) to justify why we must do X is not helpful.

We should do a bit of X,Y and Z. I think in doing these things iteratively, further opportunities will present themselves. Thats the reality of software development (at least in my experience). Sometimes you have to do a bit of suck it and see. It might not be optimal at that given point in time, but it can help drive development in a more optimal direction.

My biggest concern is that the only option I have to support bigger blocks is XT. I'd hate for everyone to jump to that because it was the only viable alternative.

To be clear, its the fact there is only one option that is the problem. In and of itself I don't think XT is necessarily a bad option, and I certainly don't subscribe to the belief that it would automatically result in all the bad things happening. Over time it could potentially facilitate those things, but I also believe that if that were the case then this can be addressed.

Yes, I have "faith". Without it what is the point in anything.

"A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution" - Satoshi Nakamoto
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December 01, 2015, 12:45:45 PM
 #3460

bitcoin =/= bitstamp

They are not the only ones that announced that they will follow BIP101.

What exactly does it mean when Bitstamp says they will 'follow' BIP101?

I mean, the BIP only addresses the generation of blocks, right?  And Bitstamp (as far as I know) does not generate any blocks.

I get the expression of support, but I don't see how they affect the adoption (or not) of BIP101 at all.

Wait until miners will not afford to pay their bills! Things will change.

Are you suggesting that the exchanges will force miners onto the BIP101 chain by refusing to exchange their bitcoins? So the BIP101 supporters have finally given up pretending this isn't a coup attempt?

Allow me to introduce you to the first fully p2p exchange,  bitsquare.io  (fully functional beta is fairly imminent apparently).

Decentralisation will win, it's the much more powerful organisation method. The world you knew is gone.

Vires in numeris
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