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Author Topic: The state of crypto - The only serious thread on the subforum  (Read 19394 times)
kelsey
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September 08, 2015, 12:33:09 PM
 #121

on the topic of the state of cryptos, i'm in the process of going around the many exchanges consolidating where i've odds and ends of coins, converting them into the few coins i like.

what i notice, damn there's such a stack of pointless coins, so much dilution, you see it on coinmarketcap etc but you don't really notice until you go from exchange to exchange trading, how utterly pointless and counterproductive most of it is.

i know many go free market, competition is good, let the market decide etc etc etc. but no, such dilution is not helpful. you have ton of good honest hard working positive people, but spread thin through so many communities.

i'm not saying there can't be multiple coins, but the scene would be so much better off, and healthier liquidity, if the pack was thinned alot.


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Each block is stacked on top of the previous one. Adding another block to the top makes all lower blocks more difficult to remove: there is more "weight" above each block. A transaction in a block 6 blocks deep (6 confirmations) will be very difficult to remove.
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September 08, 2015, 01:04:38 PM
 #122

on the topic of the state of cryptos, i'm in the process of going around the many exchanges consolidating where i've odds and ends of coins, converting them into the few coins i like.

what i notice, damn there's such a stack of pointless coins, so much dilution, you see it on coinmarketcap etc but you don't really notice until you go from exchange to exchange trading, how utterly pointless and counterproductive most of it is.

i know many go free market, competition is good, let the market decide etc etc etc. but no, such dilution is not helpful. you have ton of good honest hard working positive people, but spread thin through so many communities.

i'm not saying there can't be multiple coins, but the scene would be so much better off, and healthier liquidity, if the pack was thinned alot.





Although this may be true, it's something that we can't do anything about. It's natural.

I believe the members of these communities will consolidate into one, or a few coins, when worthy ones appear.

When a platform comes that answers that elusive question of "why crypto" to the general public, we will be off and running. Until then, we will only be a bunch of small communities and individuals trading amongst ourselves for the most part.

I also agree that the goal so far seems to be trying to become the new bankers.

Until there is a shift in motivation, and strategy, we will continue in this holding pattern.
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September 08, 2015, 01:22:48 PM
 #123

you must be aware of the prices of coins its good to have just 2 to 3 types of coin and none of them its much alt coin like LTC or doge and even soo those ones are becouse of stairs factors into dollar of its price you need to be aware that BTC its the price that regulates its importancy you say BTC walking dead i say its never the second coin to have will be like this 7 years the first top of top of all crypto not the alt cryptos not even 42 coin

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r0ach (OP)
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September 08, 2015, 01:25:34 PM
 #124

on the topic of the state of cryptos, i'm in the process of going around the many exchanges consolidating where i've odds and ends of coins, converting them into the few coins i like.

what i notice, damn there's such a stack of pointless coins, so much dilution, you see it on coinmarketcap etc but you don't really notice until you go from exchange to exchange trading, how utterly pointless and counterproductive most of it is.

i know many go free market, competition is good, let the market decide etc etc etc. but no, such dilution is not helpful. you have ton of good honest hard working positive people, but spread thin through so many communities.

i'm not saying there can't be multiple coins, but the scene would be so much better off, and healthier liquidity, if the pack was thinned alot.

You just described Linux distributions.

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rnicoll
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September 08, 2015, 01:34:49 PM
 #125

on the topic of the state of cryptos, i'm in the process of going around the many exchanges consolidating where i've odds and ends of coins, converting them into the few coins i like.

what i notice, damn there's such a stack of pointless coins, so much dilution, you see it on coinmarketcap etc but you don't really notice until you go from exchange to exchange trading, how utterly pointless and counterproductive most of it is.

i know many go free market, competition is good, let the market decide etc etc etc. but no, such dilution is not helpful. you have ton of good honest hard working positive people, but spread thin through so many communities.

i'm not saying there can't be multiple coins, but the scene would be so much better off, and healthier liquidity, if the pack was thinned alot.

The real problem IMHO is people keep jumping into every new coin as if they're somehow special. There's a vast underestimation of how much effort is poured into Bitcoin Core, and seemingly the belief that it was easy for Bitcoin to get this far and/or its devs are lazy and not pushing the coin forward. The result is you get badly considered one-trick-pony coins that launch and hit the difficulty curve like it's a mountain, but that's going to happen anyway, the problem is people keep buying them too.

Meanwhile, even Bitcoin has huge potential room for improvement, that gets ignored. Lets deploy payment protocol on more systems, formalise payment protocol over NFC, improve bitcoinj or any of the other libraries to let developers get involved, integrate hardware wallets with open source shopping sites, etc. etc. etc.

Dogecoin Core developer, ex-researcher, trader.

Unless stated otherwise, opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect that of other Dogecoin developers.
kelsey
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September 08, 2015, 02:04:09 PM
 #126

on the topic of the state of cryptos, i'm in the process of going around the many exchanges consolidating where i've odds and ends of coins, converting them into the few coins i like.

what i notice, damn there's such a stack of pointless coins, so much dilution, you see it on coinmarketcap etc but you don't really notice until you go from exchange to exchange trading, how utterly pointless and counterproductive most of it is.

i know many go free market, competition is good, let the market decide etc etc etc. but no, such dilution is not helpful. you have ton of good honest hard working positive people, but spread thin through so many communities.

i'm not saying there can't be multiple coins, but the scene would be so much better off, and healthier liquidity, if the pack was thinned alot.

The real problem IMHO is people keep jumping into every new coin as if they're somehow special. There's a vast underestimation of how much effort is poured into Bitcoin Core, and seemingly the belief that it was easy for Bitcoin to get this far and/or its devs are lazy and not pushing the coin forward. The result is you get badly considered one-trick-pony coins that launch and hit the difficulty curve like it's a mountain, but that's going to happen anyway, the problem is people keep buying them too.

Meanwhile, even Bitcoin has huge potential room for improvement, that gets ignored. Lets deploy payment protocol on more systems, formalise payment protocol over NFC, improve bitcoinj or any of the other libraries to let developers get involved, integrate hardware wallets with open source shopping sites, etc. etc. etc.



however the problem is many of us who've been around awhile have watched bitcoin grow, yet head down the regulated, centralised, corporate path......defeating much of the whole point of a p2p currency.

i know people will reply thats likely inevitable with any successful currency, however i think if you setup a truly decentralised p2p currency its possible to avoid.
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September 08, 2015, 02:49:45 PM
 #127

if you setup a truly decentralised p2p currency its possible

Full decentralisation of control imposes a harsh and demanding regime on the participants. To be fair to ourselves, this group configuration of untrusted peers and pseudonymous entities is a brand new ball game and punts us far beyond the scope of even the more radical modernistic organisational models in trying to build a set of solid working practices adequate for such a challenge.

My research indicates that even these modern organisational models remain irretrievably mired in the existing centrally-controlled hierarchy (the main thread of thinking even uses the term “healthy hierarchy”).

As an example, Zappos’ switch to the watered-down Holacracy wasn’t seen as a good move by Forbes columnist Steve Denning in his piece Making Sense Of Zappos And Holacracy.

By contrast to peer-to-peer, Holacracy’s near-obsessive attention to prescriptive procedural detail just looks Byzantine --- and we’ve beaten them before, in one of the early rounds, IIRC.


Cheers

Graham
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September 08, 2015, 02:56:25 PM
 #128

if you setup a truly decentralised p2p currency its possible

Full decentralisation of control imposes a harsh and demanding regime on the participants. To be fair to ourselves, this group configuration of untrusted peers and pseudonymous entities is a brand new ball game and punts us far beyond the scope of even the more radical modernistic organisational models in trying to build a set of solid working practices adequate for such a challenge.



if you're thinking in terms of p2p ledgers, yes, but nothing crypto wise you've seen todate has been decentralised, that's just a buzz word here. a truly properly setup dencentralised p2p currency would be indifferent to 'untrusted peers and pseudonymous entities'.
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September 08, 2015, 08:43:54 PM
Last edit: September 08, 2015, 09:19:11 PM by smooth
 #129

In actual end user terms, Mymonero.com (and I assume monerowallet.com although I haven't tried it) is about as easy to use you could hope for,

I keep reading your positive assertions and I keep wondering whether I'm missing a trick, yet every time I follow up it seems I get a different experience to you.

Is it possible that you are underestimating others’ expectations?

Case in point - the Mymonero web site fails to canonically identify the entity making the privacy statements, rendering them worthless. That's an obvious, no-brainer FAIL --- and worse, whoever’s responsible for the site is apparently either careless or ignorant of that fact which, for me, has to call their competence into question.

This is 100% the wrong approach to it. It doesn't matter who "they" are, nor whether "they" promise to protect your privacy. Privacy statements are a sham. Ever hear of Ashley Madison?

MyMonero usage is pseudononymous. There is no registration. They don't know who you are, and if you access the site using private methods, they don't even know your IP address. You can create as many accounts as you want, and furthermore you can take your key and use it elsewhere (using p2p software or another service that operated the same way if there were one) without their permission.

Finally, they can't even see where you send coins, because stealth addresses are done in the client (browser). By the time a transaction is sent back to the MyMonero server for relay to the coin network, it is already opaque. Web wallet is a bit of a misnomer. In many ways MyMonero operates more as a standalone wallet in-browser.


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September 09, 2015, 10:01:34 AM
 #130

Mymonero.com ... as easy to use you could hope for
Is it possible that you are underestimating others’ expectations?
This is 100% the wrong approach to it.

Thanks for the response and for confirming my conjecture.

Cheers

Graham
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September 09, 2015, 04:26:32 PM
Last edit: September 09, 2015, 07:11:32 PM by r0ach
 #131

State of Crypto v0.02 changelog
-------------------------------
Added to Bitcoin section:

I)  Many claim Bitcoin has a "monopoly" over crypto.  I would argue this monopoly was broken in December 2013, when Dogecoin broke 200,000 transactions per day, three times Bitcoin's 65,000 on-chain daily transaction volume (although Bitcoin is now leading again).  You could argue on-chain vs off-chain obscures the data, making it not show the full picture.  I would argue the on-chain metric is an important number to maintain, this is why scalability is important, otherwise the system can quickly devolve into a fraudulent, fractional reserve system if everything is done off-chain.

J)  The altcoin market cap appears to be increasing relative to Bitcoin market cap.  Just as we saw a transaction volume divergence in the two sectors before, I believe the price divergence will continue until an alt or two rival or beat Bitcoin market cap.  Ironically, Bitcoin would need enormous changes to reach huge market caps, but the higher cap it goes to, the more resistant to change it becomes.  This is why out of the box functionality and scaling is important.

K)  Financial instability is likely to accelerate in the next 1-3 years.  This could cause a huge crypto bubble overnight that helps both Bitcoin and alts.  Since Bitcoin has little hope of scaling well in the foreseeable future to meet those demands, most likely everything would be done off-chain.  Alts capable of high volume on-chain transactions and possibly coins with anonymity features would be the big winners here.  As mentioned further down, anonymity without scaling may be useless though.

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smooth
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September 09, 2015, 04:36:42 PM
 #132

J)  The altcoin market cap appears to be increasing relative to Bitcoin market cap.

This is at best a short term trend since ETH (though this doesn't mean this trend won't continue). The altcoin market cap share declined a lot from 2013 to early 2015, from at least 10% if not more, to around 5% pre-ETH. I don't know the number now (and one must be careful in assessing the market cap of tokens such as Ripple which have limited float relative to total supply and are subject to large changes as float number is adjusted).

I agree with your other points somewhat, although I don't entirely agree that number of transactions is so important independent of the value of those transactions.
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September 09, 2015, 05:54:56 PM
Last edit: September 10, 2015, 03:08:41 AM by TPTB_need_war
 #133

The thread's opening post is reasonable but I didn't have time to check all the detailed points for absolute correctness. You will need to add my Delegated Transaction Consensus algorithm once it is published.

DPoS - Delegated Proof of Stake (Bitshares)

...

H) Anonymity functions in progress:  http://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17687.30.html

The first few seconds of this interview with bytemaster (Daniel Larimer) explains they hide both the values and whom you are sending to (i.e. the payee):

https://beyondbitcoin.org/bitshares-dev-hangout-bytemaster-stealth-confidential-transactions/

In other words in the terminology of the Cryptonote white paper, they have unlinkability but not untraceability.

He admits this at 13:45 mins point and (in his non-analytical summary) he highly understates the block chain analysis that can be done with traceability because they have not hidden the payer. For another thing he completely discounts the possibility that the adversary is gaining access to some of the hidden values because the payer and payee both know the transferred value, which then rapidly breaks down his other assumptions. The merging of balancing he is suggesting at 21:00 will break untraceability.

They accomplished the easy part. It is combining that with untraceability that seemed nearly impossible to achieve without Zerocash's flaws. But finally after many days of brain stumping I did figure out how to do it.

Well I have them beat. In July I wrote a white paper where I can hide the values, the payee, and the payer. Thus I also have untraceability. And I don't have any of the setup issues that plague Zerocash! I invented the holy grail of on chain anonymity.

My white paper is entitled Zero Knowledge Transactions.

P.S. About the 9 min point, bytemaster is explaining that payees can't anonymously scan for their Stealth (unlinkable) transactions, which means they even break the unlinkability. Very sloppy. Yes he is correct that it breaks scalability which is one of Monero's issues. I have solved this issue also!

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September 09, 2015, 07:11:39 PM
Last edit: September 11, 2015, 12:19:26 AM by r0ach
 #134

State of Crypto v0.03 changelog
-------------------------------
*edit - Removed the additions since it added too much fluff to main post.

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September 09, 2015, 07:15:27 PM
 #135

r0ach - have you covered the differing security models of POS and POW?

A good discussion has been taking place recently: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1171311.0
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September 09, 2015, 07:32:27 PM
 #136

r0ach - have you covered the differing security models of POS and POW?

A good discussion has been taking place recently: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1171311.0

I tried to stuff everything about general PoW under the Bitcoin section in main post, then did pros and cons of standard PoS vs DPoS below it.  Will add Vitalik's PoS implementation to compare if he ever finalizes one since it's all theoretical vaporware at this point...

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smoothie
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September 09, 2015, 07:43:12 PM
Last edit: September 09, 2015, 08:30:59 PM by smoothie
 #137

The thread's opening post is reasonable but I didn't have time to check all the detailed points for absolute correctness. You will need to add my Delegated Transaction Consensus algorithm once it is published.

DPoS - Delegated Proof of Stake (Bitshares)

...

H) Anonymity functions in progress:  http://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,17687.30.html

The first few seconds of this interview with bytemaster (Daniel Latimer) explains they hide both the values and whom you are sending to (i.e. the payee):

https://beyondbitcoin.org/bitshares-dev-hangout-bytemaster-stealth-confidential-transactions/

In other words in the terminology of the Cryptonote white paper, they have unlinkability but not untraceability.

He admits this at 13:45 mins point and (in his non-analytical summary) he highly understates the block chain analysis that can be done with traceability because they have not hidden the payer. For another thing he completely discounts the possibility that the adversary is gaining access to some of the hidden values because the payer and payee both know the transferred value, which then rapidly breaks down his other assumptions. The merging of balancing he is suggesting at 21:00 will break untraceability.

They accomplished the easy part. It is combining that with untraceability that seemed nearly impossible to achieve without Zerocash's flaws. But finally after many days of brain stumping I did figure out how to do it.

Well I have them beat. In July I wrote a white paper where I can hide the values, the payee, and the payer. Thus I also have untraceability. And I don't have any of the setup issues that plague Zerocash! I invented the holy grail of on chain anonymity.

My white paper is entitled Zero Knowledge Transactions.

P.S. About the 9 min point, bytemaster is explaining that payees can't anonymously scan for their Stealth (unlinkable) transactions, which means they even break the unlinkability. Very sloppy. Yes he is correct that it breaks scalability which is one of Monero's issues. I have solved this issue also!

Delegated is not the same as decentralized.

Sounds like your system has more of a centralized approach.

Should be interesting to see how you solve the "trust less" aspect as well as the centralization problem.


Word choice problems?

del·e·gate
verb
past tense: delegated; past participle: delegated
ˈdeləˌɡāt/
entrust (a task or responsibility) to another person, typically one who is less senior than oneself.
"he delegates routine tasks"
synonyms:   assign, entrust, pass on, hand on/over, turn over, devolve, depute, transfer
"she must delegate routine tasks"
send or authorize (someone) to do something as a representative.
"Edward was delegated to meet new arrivals"
synonyms:   authorize, commission, depute, appoint, nominate, mandate, empower, charge, choose, designate, elect
"I don't recall which personnel were delegated to carry out the inspections"

███████████████████████████████████████

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║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
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smoothie
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September 09, 2015, 07:45:06 PM
 #138

on the topic of the state of cryptos, i'm in the process of going around the many exchanges consolidating where i've odds and ends of coins, converting them into the few coins i like.

what i notice, damn there's such a stack of pointless coins, so much dilution, you see it on coinmarketcap etc but you don't really notice until you go from exchange to exchange trading, how utterly pointless and counterproductive most of it is.

i know many go free market, competition is good, let the market decide etc etc etc. but no, such dilution is not helpful. you have ton of good honest hard working positive people, but spread thin through so many communities.

i'm not saying there can't be multiple coins, but the scene would be so much better off, and healthier liquidity, if the pack was thinned alot.




 And that is accomplished (thinning out) by voting with your wallet.

It is why I don't invest in many of the alt coins.

███████████████████████████████████████

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 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
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           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
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TPTB_need_war
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September 09, 2015, 08:14:16 PM
 #139

Delegated is not the same as decentralized.

Nor is it necessarily an antithetical concept. Delegated can be decentralized and effectively as trustless as Satoshi's design is (with some differing assumptions that have differing tradeoffs).

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September 09, 2015, 08:19:21 PM
 #140

Delegated is not the same as decentralized.

Nor is it necessarily an antithetical concept. Delegated can be decentralized and effectively as trustless as Satoshi's design is (with some differing assumptions that have differing tradeoffs).

No one said that it was antithetical. The point is they are not the same.

Delegated....


Quote
del·e·gate
verb
past tense: delegated; past participle: delegated
ˈdeləˌɡāt/
entrust (a task or responsibility) to another person, typically one who is less senior than oneself.
"he delegates routine tasks"
synonyms:   assign, entrust, pass on, hand on/over, turn over, devolve, depute, transfer
"she must delegate routine tasks"
send or authorize (someone) to do something as a representative.
"Edward was delegated to meet new arrivals"
synonyms:   authorize, commission, depute, appoint, nominate, mandate, empower, charge, choose, designate, elect
"I don't recall which personnel were delegated to carry out the inspections"

Either it is actually delegated or you had poor word choice in describing your system.

Question: Is your system trustless?

███████████████████████████████████████

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║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.                  History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
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