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Author Topic: You cannot talk about Money without watching this movies first  (Read 4509 times)
hugolp
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June 04, 2011, 07:39:15 AM
 #21

Yeah! The increasing creation of new money by new debt can stop when it reaches an inflection point, but millions of people keep in slavery paying interest on debt already issued! The point is that societies cannot payback debth without contracting the money supply and harming or destroying the economy. This is perverse! With so much leverage caused by the fractional reserve banking even proportionally few people in a society paying back debth and living debth free can literally destroy the whole economy.

I agree with what you are saying in general about the system creating excessive debt and it being a form of slavery. But the excessive debt is not created by fractional reserve banking alone. Only when you put a central bank behind the fractional reserve system it becomes inflationary, as the central bank is taking the risk away and allowing the banks to inflate. But fractional banking alone is not inflationary, since the risk of going bankrupt keeps the temptaion of credit expansion in check. There are several historic examples of how fractional banking alone is not inflationary.
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icecoins
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June 04, 2011, 07:57:31 AM
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Thanks for sharing those details, but how can you prove those quotes were real or not. In which sources do you base your opinion.

But more importantly, discussing this or that quote of a dead president (which neither you nor me can prove), does not add to the central theme of the movie which is to explain how the financial system operates today. Again why dont you share your views on how central banks really work, what is their purpouse, and what misleading concepts about our current financial system you could see in the movie, to get the opinion that it is completely worthless of watching to educate oneselves about money.

I did more than pointing that quotes are not real. I pointed out big "problems" on the way Lincoln is described. As I said to point out everything I would need to write pages and pages, and that is a work I can do if someone is willing to pay for it because it would take me weeks to do properly.

But the fact that the movie quotes some false cites shows how careless they were in the historic part (which is the whole point of the movie).

EDIT: I can recommend you some books about monetary history if you are interested. For example, Rothbard's "History of Money and Banking in the USA: ..." is a good start: http://mises.org/resources/1022

EDIT2: I understand your disconfort about discovering that the movie has a lot of bullshit. I felt the same way. I actually got interested in monetary history because of that movie (and "From Frdedom to Fascism"). But when I started reading more academic books I realized how flawed (and outright lying) that movie was. I was extremely deceived, as I imagine you might feel now.

EDIT3: I just realize you are asking for proves about the quotes not being real. Thats not how it works. You (or the one claiming the quotes) have to prove that they are real. The Jefferson one is easy to disprove because the word deflation was not used back then. The Woodrow Wilson one is false becuse there is basically no evidence that he said it.

Hugolp, thanks for caring, but I dont feel extremely deceived after reading your solid and profound arguments about the inner workings of our current monetary system, thanks.  Wink

One point though, if you use so called "academic books" as a measuring stick for "the truth", especially in economics, you will have a rude awakening in the coming years. If you are interested in how independent the "prestigious" economic professors of the top universities are, those who write themost influencial papers, I recommend you watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE. You will learn that many of them are just paid puppets of the financial sector.

On the other hand, if you want to be a good sheep and obbey what authorities teach you without thinking for yourself, go ahead, you will feel more comfortable living that way, no question about it. I rather learn from different sources and think for myself, not giving anyone the authority to say whats true or whats false.

Thanks for the books, I will take a look.

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June 04, 2011, 08:02:24 AM
 #23

Hugolp, thanks for caring, but I dont feel extremely deceived after reading your solid and profound arguments about the inner workings of our current monetary system, thanks.  Wink

One point though, if you use so called "academic books" as a measuring stick for "the truth", especially in economics, you will have a rude awakening in the coming years. If you are interested in how independent the "prestigious" economic professors of the top universities are, those who write themost influencial papers, I recommend you watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE. You will learn that many of them are just paid puppets of the financial sector.

On the other hand, if you want to be a good sheep and obbey what authorities teach you without thinking for yourself, go ahead, you will feel more comfortable living that way, no question about it. I rather learn from different sources and think for myself, not giving anyone the authority to say whats true or whats false.

So you feel its ok that The Money Masters lies about Lincoln?

Btw, I usually agree with the videos of NIA, but behind NIA there is a scammer. Watch out for that.

Murray Rothbard is considered the father of the modern libertarian movement. Just check him out before talking about sheep and obbey authorities and more stuff.
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June 04, 2011, 08:05:53 AM
 #24

Btw, I usually agree with the videos of NIA, but behind NIA there is a scammer. Watch out for that.

We agree on that, Peter Shiff explained it lately. It seems strange though, but NIA seems to have a shady side.

By the way, I dont agree 100% with the movies, not by a long shot, in particular with the solutions they propose in the end, but I find them informative and a fresh perspective to consider.
hugolp
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June 04, 2011, 08:09:43 AM
 #25

Btw, I usually agree with the videos of NIA, but behind NIA there is a scammer. Watch out for that.

We agree on that, Peter Shiff explained it lately. It seems strange though, but NIA seems to have a shady side.

Btw, Peter Schiff follows the austrian school of economics of which Murray Rothbard is one of the big figures and that contradicts a lot of the things that The Money Masters says.

Quote
By the way, I dont agree 100% with the movies, not by a long shot, in particular with the solutions they propose in the end, but I find them informative and a fresh perspective to consider.

Its ok. You dont have to believe me. Its good policy to not believe anything anyone says on the internet. But if you keep reading and researching about monetary theory and history you will realize how many lies there are in the movie and how it manipulates to sell their talking points, as it happened to me.
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June 04, 2011, 08:33:13 AM
 #26

Btw, I usually agree with the videos of NIA, but behind NIA there is a scammer. Watch out for that.

We agree on that, Peter Shiff explained it lately. It seems strange though, but NIA seems to have a shady side.

Btw, Peter Schiff follows the austrian school of economics of which Murray Rothbard is one of the big figures and that contradicts a lot of the things that The Money Masters says.

Hugop, as I wrote I am not claiming 100% accuracy of the things I watch or I recommend. But if they can help open our minds, question authority, think for ourselves, and gain a better undertanding of reality, then its worthwile the time.

My conclusions about the monetary system so far come from taking into account not only the financial sector but the whole society. There were so many odd things in the world that I couldnt explain before, and that now look so obvious. Seemingly unrelated things like the direction of ecology, agriculture, medicine, education, media, social values, globalization, wars, the strange supression of progress in so many aspects of technology and society in the last 50 years, and so on. I mean there are common transversal patterns that you can see everywhere that are easy to explain when you start to understand the level of concentration of power in the world, but difficult of impossible to explain using a bottom up approach. Many, I would say too many things in our society are configured top down, by people who dont share 99% of the population values. And there is a tremendous supression of knowledge to keep this world order. Later we give the status quo some false meanings, beacuse we ignore the process of creation. So trusing authorities, whether Austrian School or Keynesianism by itself is not enough. Our model of reality will be always incomplete, but the more diverse information we are exposed to, the closer we get to the truth. In that respect, I feel the movies I shared are far, far closer to reality than many "academic texts", because they explain a broader range of phonemena and they mesh well with other aspects of the way our society is configured.

I belive in an enormous human potential, that I see supressed by the system. Lets work to unleash all the power we have as human species. I think Bitcoin is a cool step in that direction.
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June 04, 2011, 08:39:20 AM
 #27

Its ok. You dont have to believe me. Its good policy to not believe anything anyone says on the internet. But if you keep reading and researching about monetary theory and history you will realize how many lies there are in the movie and how it manipulates to sell their talking points, as it happened to me.

Hey, i dont say you are wrong, only to teach us what is the (hidden) agenda of the movie in your opinion. If it tries to manipulate us into believing someting, please spell out what that is. I mean something of subtance, related to economic matters, not related to gossip about what a dead president said or not. I would really appreciate your macro view on this subject.
hugolp
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June 04, 2011, 08:46:59 AM
 #28

Its ok. You dont have to believe me. Its good policy to not believe anything anyone says on the internet. But if you keep reading and researching about monetary theory and history you will realize how many lies there are in the movie and how it manipulates to sell their talking points, as it happened to me.

Hey, i dont say you are wrong, only to teach us what is the (hidden) agenda of the movie in your opinion. If it tries to manipulate us into believing someting, please spell out what that is. I mean something of subtance, related to economic matters, not related to gossip about what a dead president said or not. I would really appreciate your macro view on this subject.

As I told you this would require a discussion on basic economic theory that could take pages to write. All I can do is give you a brief peak at parts that are wrong on the movie, as I already did, and point you aout to books with satisfactory economic theory and history.
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June 04, 2011, 09:29:37 AM
 #29

Findeton, your logic is astounding,

First you argue correctly, that a security that is exchanged for debt money is itself treated as money by the banks, then you say its not debt?

How is a Collaterilzed DEBT olbigation not debt? of for that matter a CDO^2?!

Also have you even read "Modern Money Mechanics" published by the US Fed? I suggest you do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Bank_of_Chicago

The films contain some problems, but in a nutshell the money expansion is *far worse* than outlined in the films. The films are worth watching. The is also an updated version of Money Masters, called "The Secret of Oz", in which the producer Bill Still acknowledges and corrects some of the errors made in the first film.



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June 04, 2011, 09:56:52 AM
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Findeton, your logic is astounding,

First you argue correctly, that a security that is exchanged for debt money is itself treated as money by the banks, then you say its not debt?

How is a Collaterilzed DEBT olbigation not debt? of for that matter a CDO^2?!

A bank guarantee is not a CDO. You can have a bank guarantee without creating a CDO (in fact you need many bank guarantees to create a CDO, because a CDO is a type of structured asset-backed security).

Bitcoin Weekly, bitcoin analysis and commentary

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June 04, 2011, 10:55:01 AM
 #31

for so called libertarians you guys sure do seem to forget the principle of contracts between consenting adults being perfectly fine as soon as the topic of money comes up.
ender
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June 04, 2011, 11:17:22 AM
 #32

Yeah! The increasing creation of new money by new debt can stop when it reaches an inflection point, but millions of people keep in slavery paying interest on debt already issued! The point is that societies cannot payback debth without contracting the money supply and harming or destroying the economy. This is perverse! With so much leverage caused by the fractional reserve banking even proportionally few people in a society paying back debth and living debth free can literally destroy the whole economy.

I agree with what you are saying in general about the system creating excessive debt and it being a form of slavery. But the excessive debt is not created by fractional reserve banking alone. Only when you put a central bank behind the fractional reserve system it becomes inflationary, as the central bank is taking the risk away and allowing the banks to inflate. But fractional banking alone is not inflationary, since the risk of going bankrupt keeps the temptaion of credit expansion in check. There are several historic examples of how fractional banking alone is not inflationary.

The risk of going bankrupt? What risk? In what idealised world? C'mon we all payed for banks not to go bankrupt. We cannot expect banks to "hold back" for fear of bankrupcy when they have no reasons to fear it.

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hugolp
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June 04, 2011, 04:48:26 PM
 #33

The films contain some problems, but in a nutshell the money expansion is *far worse* than outlined in the films. The films are worth watching. The is also an updated version of Money Masters, called "The Secret of Oz", in which the producer Bill Still acknowledges and corrects some of the errors made in the first film.

Actually, The Secret of Oz is even worse than The Money Masters.
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June 04, 2011, 07:27:06 PM
 #34

I've watched "Money as debt" (and "Money as debt II"), but I think it's a bit misleading:

It says that money for a loan is created out of thin air, and backed only by the borrower's promise to pay (of course, the house/car/whatever he was buying can be repossessed by the bank if the borrower doesn't pay).

But from my understanding, in a fractional reserve system, money for a loan still comes from lenders (people who make deposits). The bank has to keep a small amount of the lenders' money in reserve (10% maybe), to be able to pay lenders who withdraw some money.
Now, the same money can be lent multiple times: money deposited by person A, lent to person B, who buys something from person C can be deposited (again) by person C, and then lent (again), etc.
So you end up with money multiplication.

Granted, the end result is nearly as bad as with money created out of thin air, in terms of inflation, but still, it seems like an important distinction to me.
hugolp
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June 05, 2011, 05:44:09 AM
 #35

Yeah! The increasing creation of new money by new debt can stop when it reaches an inflection point, but millions of people keep in slavery paying interest on debt already issued! The point is that societies cannot payback debth without contracting the money supply and harming or destroying the economy. This is perverse! With so much leverage caused by the fractional reserve banking even proportionally few people in a society paying back debth and living debth free can literally destroy the whole economy.

I agree with what you are saying in general about the system creating excessive debt and it being a form of slavery. But the excessive debt is not created by fractional reserve banking alone. Only when you put a central bank behind the fractional reserve system it becomes inflationary, as the central bank is taking the risk away and allowing the banks to inflate. But fractional banking alone is not inflationary, since the risk of going bankrupt keeps the temptaion of credit expansion in check. There are several historic examples of how fractional banking alone is not inflationary.

The risk of going bankrupt? What risk? In what idealised world? C'mon we all payed for banks not to go bankrupt. We cannot expect banks to "hold back" for fear of bankrupcy when they have no reasons to fear it.

The thing is that you have several historic examples (Scotland, Canada, USA, ...) were there was free banking, taht means no central bank and no centalised credit regulations, and fractional reserve banks behaved. They were really afraid of bankruptcy, and actually there were very few bankruptcies. Check this out: http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?a=774
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June 05, 2011, 04:49:48 PM
 #36


29 Minute Animated Film about Money (My Favorite!):

Part 1/2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExBE651_vOY
Part 2/2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx7HDTDDopA
Thanks man! Cheesy

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June 11, 2011, 12:07:33 AM
 #37

very informative videos, thanks

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November 27, 2015, 08:02:14 PM
 #38

Just awesome topic! I am sure there are many people who are faced with the same problems I recently had. I couldn't find Maybe you would be interested in an online service with a ton of Form templates (tax, real estate, legal, business, insurance forms, etc..) I used it to fill out .
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November 27, 2015, 09:20:24 PM
 #39

Great documentaries, saw them all.. The first of the "Zeitgeist" documentaries has these topics covered also. Did my thesis on this subject as well Smiley
When you see how the monetary sistem is build, you see the true value of Bitcoin.

Or, as Henry Ford put it:
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It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.



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