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Author Topic: DagCoin: a cryptocurrency without blocks  (Read 70643 times)
tromp
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September 17, 2015, 01:05:32 PM
 #41

2. Allow only one transaction per block

4. Argue whether the transaction should be limited to 1M or 8MB or ...

Sorry; couldn't resist:-)
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September 17, 2015, 01:11:13 PM
 #42

4. Argue whether the transaction should be limited to 1M or 8MB or ...

Sorry; couldn't resist:-)

 Grin

All transactions can have the same size and chain together to form bigger transactions. So this issue can be solved once and forever.
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September 17, 2015, 01:17:36 PM
 #43

I completely support this idea, hope this is successful would be interested in how things develop!
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September 17, 2015, 02:08:38 PM
 #44

Very interesting. I'm coding a very similar system right now. 80% is already done.

What is the name of your system or coin?
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September 17, 2015, 03:05:45 PM
Last edit: September 17, 2015, 03:20:27 PM by DumbFruit
 #45

One could look at this as a one transaction per block blockchain with no difficulty adjustments. If this algorithm were used in a highly decentralized environment it would be extremely difficult for separate clients to reach consensus about a transaction history.
What would end up happening, because it would render the most consistent transaction history, is transactions would be sent to a node or maybe a handful of centralized nodes that would process the transaction.

You reference this problem here, emphasis mine;
Quote from: Sergio Demian Lerner
One of the problems with the DAG approach is how to limit the maximum cut of the generated DAG
or, in other words, how to prevent all new transactions from referencing the same set of parent
transactions, and degenerating the DAG into a star graph. The DAG must not increase in “width”,
and it must “look” more like a yarn under microscope. I will call this structure a DAG-chain.

And then you say you address it with the following incentive structure;
Quote from: Sergio Demian Lerner
DagCoin tries to fulfill that premise, using an incentive structure such that:
- There is a benefit for users to reference as many previous transactions as possible
- Referencing many previous transactions is incentivized only when there are many previous
transactions unreferenced.
- There is no competition between users to reference a previous transaction.
The first incentive is what is creating the problem. A node wants to get as many transactions as it can, and those transactions should reference themselves as much as possible.

The second, requiring that many transactions be unreferenced, is putting the cart before the horse. Nodes can't agree on what transactions are unreferenced before already having consensus about the current state of the network, which is what you're trying to solve to begin with.
Even if it wasn't putting the cart before the horse, only the most centralized nodes would have the most information about unreferenced transactions.

The third is irrelevant. Nodes can't compete to reference the same transaction because that would require they have the same information, which again, is the problem we're trying to solve in the first place; Consensus about the data.

So I don't see how this protocol addresses the problem of "degenerating the DAG into a star graph" as you put it, or being subject to extreme centralization pressures, as I would put it.

https://bitslog.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/dagcoin-v41.pdf

By their (dumb) fruits shall ye know them indeed...
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September 17, 2015, 04:07:12 PM
 #46

What is the name of your system or coin?

Classified till the announcement.
tromp
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September 17, 2015, 04:21:22 PM
 #47

What is the name of your system or coin?

Classified till the announcement.

I'm guessing... Coin-From-Beyond
Tobo
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September 17, 2015, 04:23:23 PM
 #48

Classified till the announcement.

Any ETA for the announcement?
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September 17, 2015, 04:39:44 PM
 #49

Any ETA for the announcement?

End of this month if the whitepaper is ready in time.
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September 17, 2015, 08:12:47 PM
 #50


What is the name of your system or coin?


Account is back under control of the real AmericanPegasus.
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September 18, 2015, 09:34:04 AM
 #51

I never even think that this thing exist, this is a brilliant idea!!! Shocked

This idea naturally follows from blockchain if you do few simple steps:

1. Get rid of the coinbase transaction
2. Allow only one transaction per block
3. Allow to reference several previous blocks at the arbitrary height

As all obvious things this didn't attract much attention, of course.

is this tech similar to what Fuserleer is doing with emunie? afaik emunie uses balances now without any blocks
patmast3r
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September 18, 2015, 12:04:11 PM
 #52

I never even think that this thing exist, this is a brilliant idea!!! Shocked

This idea naturally follows from blockchain if you do few simple steps:

1. Get rid of the coinbase transaction
2. Allow only one transaction per block
3. Allow to reference several previous blocks at the arbitrary height

As all obvious things this didn't attract much attention, of course.

is this tech similar to what Fuserleer is doing with emunie? afaik emunie uses balances now without any blocks

I think emunie uses a trust score now and I also think balance doesn't influence that score but I could be wrong on that.

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September 18, 2015, 05:48:01 PM
 #53

how do 51% attacks apply in this dag scheme?

Tobo
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September 19, 2015, 01:25:23 AM
 #54

What is the name of your system or coin?
Classified till the announcement.

I wonder if you have heard this Bitcoin-NG - next generation of Bitcoin - https://scalingbitcoin.org/montreal2015/presentations/Day1/8-Ittay-eyal-testbed-for-bitcoin-scaling.pdf

http://www.coindesk.com/cornell-research-blockchain-problems-bitcoin-ng/

Any comments on it?
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September 19, 2015, 04:09:04 AM
 #55

Will be interesting to see how this coin develops and becomes a next generation coin without blocks. Will be following this one close for updates and developments. Will sure solve a lot of problems that a lot of the current cryptos face with blockchains.

=
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September 19, 2015, 07:42:23 AM
 #56


I don't like their design because it leads to a heterogenous system which is harder to analyse and implement. Also it looks like a half-measure.

We were forced to go in another direction because our coin targets micropayment and IoT markets and must be friendly to devices with very limited processing power and storage. The goal was achieved by creating strong incentive to behave honestly in cases when "blockchain" data are split among thousands devices. The splitting allows to use different techniques (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MapReduce) and seems to ease the scalability problem.
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September 19, 2015, 08:38:33 AM
 #57

I never even think that this thing exist, this is a brilliant idea!!! Shocked

This idea naturally follows from blockchain if you do few simple steps:

1. Get rid of the coinbase transaction
2. Allow only one transaction per block
3. Allow to reference several previous blocks at the arbitrary height

As all obvious things this didn't attract much attention, of course.

is this tech similar to what Fuserleer is doing with emunie? afaik emunie uses balances now without any blocks

Its similar in some principles, very different in others.  We don't use blocks at all and just push individual transactions around as a kind of ordered soup.  No chain, but instead use transaction channels of which there can be millions, and we track balances not inputs/outputs.

All radically different and lots of hoops to jump through (balances are a lot harder to deal with than you might think) but allows a lot of benefits.  I'm writing some docs on our ledger stuff at the moment to go along with the consensus info I posted a couple weeks ago, hopefully be done with it this coming week.

Radix - DLT x.0

Web - http://radix.global  Forums - http://forum.radix.global Twitter - @radixdlt
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September 19, 2015, 12:21:24 PM
 #58

Is this thread an altcoin discussion?  OP is well respected.



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September 19, 2015, 12:26:50 PM
 #59

Is this thread an altcoin discussion?  OP is well respected.

We discuss an idea and its implementations, where have you come from?

Maybe from Beyond...
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September 20, 2015, 01:26:30 PM
 #60

Is this thread an altcoin discussion?  OP is well respected.

We discuss an idea and its implementations, where have you come from?

Maybe from Beyond...

One thing is an altcoin: a copy of Bitcoin with minor modifications and nothing interesting. Another thing is a new cryptocurrency design.

This forum has aways been 100% open to discuss any possible cryptocurrency research direction.

Anyway, I'm not planning to implement DagCoin: it's just an idea. But I support all attempts to create new interesting cryptocurrencies. If they work, Bitcoin may use the new technologies using side-chains (and that's why I support side-chains 100%)

Bitcoin benefits from all cryptocurrency research (academic or amateur), because it gives us insight into what are the limits of the technology. As times passes cryptocurrency research is turning more academic, and "new ideas" posted in some blog/forum may become less common.
 
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