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Author Topic: Re: Fees for full nodes?  (Read 7893 times)
mezzomix
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December 08, 2015, 10:39:56 AM
 #81

I don't know if you are joking or forgot about SPV mining. It isn't that simple.
If mining in SPV-mode produces valid blocks - it can be treated as holding full-node.

There are chances that a SPV Miner produces valid empty blocks. A full node should be able to produce valid blocks including transactions.
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The block chain is the main innovation of Bitcoin. It is the first distributed timestamping system.
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December 08, 2015, 05:12:04 PM
 #82

I don't know if you are joking or forgot about SPV mining. It isn't that simple.
If mining in SPV-mode produces valid blocks - it can be treated as holding full-node.
I do not see any problems here.
OK, now I understand that you have an oddball sense of humor.

The "full node" is traditionally defined as a node that:

1) knows the entire blockchain history
2) propagates transactions and blocks after verification

The "pro-pools" legacy meaning included one more function:

3) mines blocks

Bitcoin started in the situation where mined coins paid for all 3 things:
3) electricity spent on PoW
2) network bandwidth
1) block storage

Now that node specialization is progressing I think the first two functions will get unbundled too. I thus don't consider "full node" a very important concept. Perhaps it would be better to split it into 2 or 3 terms:
i) real-time propagating node
ii) UTxO query-service node
iii) archival query-service node
depending on how far we would want to go into unbundling.

The problem with unbundling is that there's nobody paying the fourth cost:

0) research and development

Therefore after mining got unbundled the developers were left to funding themselves by extortion,  scams, rip-offs, vulture/venture capital, preying on the naïve and other miscellaneous funding sources.


Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
amaclin
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December 08, 2015, 05:45:42 PM
 #83

Now that node specialization is progressing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
There is no known solution to it. Only centralization.
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December 08, 2015, 05:55:28 PM
 #84

Now that node specialization is progressing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
There is no known solution to it. Only centralization.
I think that the science that says "no known solution" is still young in the timeline scale of humanity. As they say: necessity is a mother of invention. I'm willing to wait for either a better solutions or a better proof of incompleteness.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
tl121
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December 09, 2015, 03:37:34 AM
 #85

I don't know if you are joking or forgot about SPV mining. It isn't that simple.
If mining in SPV-mode produces valid blocks - it can be treated as holding full-node.

There are chances that a SPV Miner produces valid empty blocks. A full node should be able to produce valid blocks including transactions.


This is a distinction without a difference.  An SPV mining node can always produce blocks containing valid transactions.  All it needs is a collection of previously valid transactions using keys that it controls. This will effectively hide the fact that it is an effectively empty block.  There will no risk that any of the transactions in this block will prove invalid.  Of course, if the previous block contains invalid transactions there will still be a risk that this otherwise valid block will be orphaned.

amaclin
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December 10, 2015, 06:22:22 AM
 #86

There are chances that a SPV Miner produces valid empty blocks.
A full node should be able to produce valid blocks including transactions.

Look at this picture.
Can you prove that F2Pool, AntPool and Slush are running full-nodes, not SPV?  Grin

387615 https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000044e3a71cdb513d85d892313fada6905ccb675778857e86b
387616 https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000302c0857d3f71ef4f264ff95c99a058170256a1f330f07d
387617 https://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000000099b095a982f5987017885e033d1c3b39296b8b552b696e9
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December 10, 2015, 10:14:54 AM
 #87

Can you help me understand how it is possible to produce empty blocks, or what the incentive would even be to do so, when there are still unconfirmed transactions in the mempool?

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December 10, 2015, 11:13:43 AM
 #88

Can you help me understand how it is possible to produce empty blocks, or what the incentive would even be to do so, when there are still unconfirmed transactions in the mempool?
Here's a thread on it in the mining subsection where it is explained:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1085800.0

Primary developer/maintainer for cgminer and ckpool/ckproxy.
ZERO FEE Pooled mining at ckpool.org 1% Fee Solo mining at solo.ckpool.org
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December 10, 2015, 05:48:48 PM
 #89


How about the dash model? It follows the argument that people invested should run a node.

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amaclin
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December 10, 2015, 06:31:02 PM
 #90

How about the dash model? It follows the argument that people invested should run a node.
No chances either.
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