Would i be better off waiting for the 16nm miners?

[ngzhang]

I think Bitcoin mining will finally move to 14/16nm at early or mid 2016, in the retail market.

The major barriers for us to move to 14/16nm node are the cost is ~X2 and the manufacture time is ~X2.5 compare to 28nm. This means you spend even more on same THs on the chips, and get them months later. Also, cash before order.

The only benefit is ~30-50% power saving. Do you really think this is worthy?

also, ALL bitcoin chip designs are cell based. This impossible to do a  good "full custom" design in 1or 2years. The word "Full custom" turns into a advertisement words now.

 

ng

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[Finksy]

I think Bitcoin mining will finally move to 14/16nm at early or mid 2016, in the retail market.

The major barriers for us to move to 14/16nm node are the cost is ~X2 and the manufacture time is ~X2.5 compare to 28nm. This means you spend even more on same THs on the chips, and get them months later. Also, cash before order.

The only benefit is ~30-50% power saving. Do you really think this is worthy?

also, ALL bitcoin chip designs are cell based. This impossible to do a  good "full custom" design in 1or 2years. The word "Full custom" turns into a advertisement words now.

 

ng

ng,

Thank you for coming in and commenting on many of the threads, it is nice to have industry insight from professionals such as yourself.

I personally believe that the "arms race" with Bitfury and KNC is more PR and marketing than real facts. All we really know for certain is that they are increasing their hashrate, not that they are meeting the specs that they claim. 

Would you agree that with the low price of electricity many of these large farms are likely able to obtain, the $/GH can be just as or more relevant as the W/GH in terms of profit? For that reason, I wouldn't think 14/16nm is going to be a cost-effective before the next ~12 months given it's infancy compared to 28nm at this time.  If it was, one would think Innosilicon would have taped out by now.

[ngzhang]

ng,

Thank you for coming in and commenting on many of the threads, it is nice to have industry insight from professionals such as yourself.

I personally believe that the "arms race" with Bitfury and KNC is more PR and marketing than real facts. All we really know for certain is that they are increasing their hashrate, not that they are meeting the specs that they claim. 

Would you agree that with the low price of electricity many of these large farms are likely able to obtain, the $/GH can be just as or more relevant as the W/GH in terms of profit? For that reason, I wouldn't think 14/16nm is going to be a cost-effective before the next ~12 months given it's infancy compared to 28nm at this time.  If it was, one would think Innosilicon would have taped out by now.

It's much easier to get a low price of electricity than study out a high efficiency chip.

If the electricity is ~ 0.02~0.03$, nobody care about the power consuption. ~0.3W/G and ~0.15W/G almost the same.

Bitfury advertise their 0.07W/g 16nm chips , but gear up their ~0.25W/G 28nm chips in their own farm. So I think Bitfury is a wise man.

Also, why you metioned Innosilicon? I haven't hear about them for really a long time. 

ng

[Finksy]

Also, why you metioned Innosilicon? I haven't hear about them for really a long time. 

Because they are the only company who have publicly announced consumer sales of 14nm mining chips with their A3's, unlike Bitmain and SP-Tech who are staying with 28nm for the time being.

[notlist3d]

Also, why you metioned Innosilicon? I haven't hear about them for really a long time. 

Because they are the only company who have publicly announced consumer sales of 14nm mining chips with their A3's, unlike Bitmain and SP-Tech who are staying with 28nm for the time being.

Did they announce it or did Lketc?  I was thinking Lketc was one to actually announce a product.    And they did it very early, to early since they did not even have a chip at that point.

BW has announced a miner.  Still rendering stages aswell.  So there are two miners that have announced. 

But we have yet to see either in real world.

[ngzhang]

Also, why you metioned Innosilicon? I haven't hear about them for really a long time. 

Because they are the only company who have publicly announced consumer sales of 14nm mining chips with their A3's, unlike Bitmain and SP-Tech who are staying with 28nm for the time being.

sources? 

[Searing]

I have already decided to put my antminer U3 on for lottery mining, have named it blocky incase he finds me a block!... 63GH/s... I am interested in mining in a pool as well with a bigger rig as well... Would I be better off waiting for a later miner? I seem to find the antminer s7 is very high priced given the difficulty level keeps rising. I want to do it mainly for fun but also I do want to minimize losses if possible. Either getting a later rig or use that moment to cash in on the price drop of the s7?


What do you guys recommend? hang fire and wait? or go for it?

Jacob

the trend has been either

1) you can't get them they are kept in house and in data halls via big IPO $$$ (ie KNC)

2) you can get them in 'bulk' batches

3) they are industrial units that likely will go for over 30k

this is the future you have bitman that makes some...but by the time they fill their data halls with their units (or whomever would sell us some) usually it is too long a wait and they can never ROI

So sure ..wait....we could get luck...but S7 and chucking out big money for an sp50 spondoolies just to be ground up in the giant miner asic data hall wars I see coming is hardly attractive

my 2 satoshi's worth anyway

[notlist3d]

Also, why you metioned Innosilicon? I haven't hear about them for really a long time.  

Because they are the only company who have publicly announced consumer sales of 14nm mining chips with their A3's, unlike Bitmain and SP-Tech who are staying with 28nm for the time being.

sources?  

Lk - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1033676.0

BW  - https://www.bw.com/pool/miner

They teamed up with BW.   There are some big moves that happened.  Are you still with avalon?

[RichBC]

Also, why you metioned Innosilicon? I haven't hear about them for really a long time.  

Because they are the only company who have publicly announced consumer sales of 14nm mining chips with their A3's, unlike Bitmain and SP-Tech who are staying with 28nm for the time being.

sources?  

Lk - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1033676.0

BW  - https://www.bw.com/pool/miner

They teamed up with BW.   There are some big moves that happened.  Are you still with avalon?

Just following up on the connections, LK / BW is quite clear as is their intention to use 14nm chips in B-Eleven. So interesting to see a comment from someone in the business "Also, why you metioned Innosilicon? I haven't hear about them for really a long time.  " My working assumption, but don't think I have seen anything reported,  is that Innosilicon would be the fab for these 14nm chips? So is that documented anywhere, are they still the most likely, if not who else could it be?

Rich

[ngzhang]

Also, why you metioned Innosilicon? I haven't hear about them for really a long time.  

Because they are the only company who have publicly announced consumer sales of 14nm mining chips with their A3's, unlike Bitmain and SP-Tech who are staying with 28nm for the time being.

sources?  

Lk - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1033676.0

BW  - https://www.bw.com/pool/miner

They teamed up with BW.   There are some big moves that happened.  Are you still with avalon?

Avalon is a project name. My company is Canaan-creative. Bitcoin mining is still my primary job.

LK / BW is totally different form Innosilicon. As I know, LK/BW is designing the chips under their own control. 

Good luck to their first chips. 

ng

[Finksy]

This is where I was pulling it from.  LK and others use Innosilicon's chips, as they did with the A1.

Thanks all for elaborating. Innosilicon's job on A1 project was to do the proper ASIC and and ship them to whoever wanna design the miners . By the way, we are free to ship in the open market from day 1 and we never shipped one region with better quality ASIC than another region. Any such claim is just fking lie and malicious. Why would we do that? Never! European region to us, are just as important as any other regions in the world. The two chip Reference board we did for A1 we did was only served to evaluate and demo our ASIC and not for production use. As it turned out, companies like Bitmine had very little prior engineering experience and they are not competent to handle the miner production in the end. All in all, engineering is all about knowledge, process and experience. Hard lessons are learnt and it is never easy to get-rich-quickly if you don't really know it.

BTW, Martin from IMET is a cheater and liar. He begged us to ship him a few thousand ASICs to make boards back in March 2014 and promised to pay later. After ASIC arrived, he disappeared. His A1 Miner was too extreme and too hot to be reliable.  He should not be trusted.

After A1 phase, we did 28nm A2 ASIC PLUS the official A2 Terminator miner design together so that there won't be another Bitmine like miner fiasco which hurt ASIC sales, which was better.

The latest development is that we are moving on to the A3 ASIC and A4 ASIC design already. Both in 14nm and already taped out with over 60% power saving over the 28nm generation. Anyone interested in those are free to contact us. I guess we are the 1st to move to 14nm at this point and we are confident A3 and A4 are both gonna work great.

Thanks all for the spirited debate and sharing. God bless!

[anthonycamp]

you say soo many miners like i get fuzzed betewewn the S5 S6 S7 and the A ant miners are best the A or S and major difrences?

[Amph]

you say soo many miners like i get fuzzed betewewn the S5 S6 S7 and the A ant miners are best the A or S and major difrences?

the s7 is the best if you don't have a really cheap or free electricty, otherwise the s3 would be the best

i would not count too much on the a series...afaik they are worse in term of efficiency

[notlist3d]

Also, why you metioned Innosilicon? I haven't hear about them for really a long time.  

Because they are the only company who have publicly announced consumer sales of 14nm mining chips with their A3's, unlike Bitmain and SP-Tech who are staying with 28nm for the time being.

sources?  

Lk - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1033676.0

BW  - https://www.bw.com/pool/miner

They teamed up with BW.   There are some big moves that happened.  Are you still with avalon?

Avalon is a project name. My company is Canaan-creative. Bitcoin mining is still my primary job.

LK / BW is totally different form Innosilicon. As I know, LK/BW is designing the chips under their own control.  

Good luck to their first chips.  

ng

LK announced LONG ago at this point.  Everyone assumed it was with Innosilicon as they have always been partners in past.  Also they said same NM as each other.

BW miner is kinda new and assumed with Innosilicon.  So no public info really on what's happening with LKETC original gear if still planned, or BW stole Innosilicon.

That is what I get out of it anyways.

[QuintLeo]

LK announced LONG ago at this point.  Everyone assumed it was with Innosilicon as they have always been partners in past.  Also they said same NM as each other.

BW miner is kinda new and assumed with Innosilicon.  So no public info really on what's happening with LKETC original gear if still planned, or BW stole Innosilicon.

That is what I get out of it anyways.

 BW *IS* LK - in part.
 LK owns part of BW IIRC "Bitcoinbank" owns the rest.

 I'm curious where the claim that LK/BW are designing their own chip comes from - that would be a complete break with their previous business model, and they have NOT said or announced anything about such a thing that I've been able to find (though they also have never specifically said they are planning to use Innosilicon A3 chips).

[notlist3d]

LK announced LONG ago at this point.  Everyone assumed it was with Innosilicon as they have always been partners in past.  Also they said same NM as each other.

BW miner is kinda new and assumed with Innosilicon.  So no public info really on what's happening with LKETC original gear if still planned, or BW stole Innosilicon.

That is what I get out of it anyways.

 BW *IS* LK - in part.
 LK owns part of BW IIRC "Bitcoinbank" owns the rest.

 I'm curious where the claim that LK/BW are designing their own chip comes from - that would be a complete break with their previous business model, and they have NOT said or announced anything about such a thing that I've been able to find (though they also have never specifically said they are planning to use Innosilicon A3 chips).

When you say in part can you go more in depth?  What is their relationship?  Does one own the other

As far as both of them they would be using Innosilicon chips to my knowledge.  LKETC for sure will be on what ever their next dragon will be.   And BW would most likely use it aswel.   

[Searing]

Here you go 14nm usb chip for the masses..you pay thru the nose for it....but a cute toy (and the joys it looks like of a pre-order raffle)

Info on BW company itself


https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/the-unknown-giant-a-first-look-inside-bw-one-of-china-s-oldest-and-largest-miners-1444675310

on the supposed 14nm product

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bw-to-launch-nm-chip-and-miner-for-general-population-1445278227



from the above

quote


Along with the announcement of its bitcoin chip, the company has announced that it will be releasing a bitcoin miner for consumers that will launch in Winter 2016.
“The miners are now available for pre-order at a price of 0.87 BTC with a minimum order of 333 miners which is 1 petahash,” Virgilio Lizardo Jr., Head of International at Bitbank told Bitcoin Magazine in an exclusive interview. “This price will be available until November 11, 2015. This winter, the miners will be available with no minimum order required; the price at this time has not been decided yet.”

According to BW, each 14nm chip in the miner will be able to attain anywhere from 34.6-63GH/s. The power consumption is 18W based on a voltage of 0.59V to 0.76V.

end quote

So the above says (assuming you could get one w/o bulk at the bulk price above) it would be as I type this $230.99 for a 34.6GH to 63.0GH USB Stick!

Sheesh. I can get any number of ASIC miners NOW ..electric be damned for a better return then that! Never ROI indeed!

But anyway another toy....but right now you could get 10 8gb usb stick Sidehack Gekko Miners (overclocked say to 10gh each) for 250 bucks would be 100gh NOW TODAY!
..so I sure as hell am not sure why the hell you would do the above on these BW sticks arriving in Winter 2016. The ROI is the same. A smile

but toys be toys I guess.

Sidehack sales thread here

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1126705.0

[notlist3d]

Here you go 14nm usb chip for the masses..you pay thru the nose for it....but a cute toy (and the joys it looks like of a pre-order raffle)

Info on BW company itself


https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/the-unknown-giant-a-first-look-inside-bw-one-of-china-s-oldest-and-largest-miners-1444675310

on the supposed 14nm product

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bw-to-launch-nm-chip-and-miner-for-general-population-1445278227



from the above

quote


Along with the announcement of its bitcoin chip, the company has announced that it will be releasing a bitcoin miner for consumers that will launch in Winter 2016.
“The miners are now available for pre-order at a price of 0.87 BTC with a minimum order of 333 miners which is 1 petahash,” Virgilio Lizardo Jr., Head of International at Bitbank told Bitcoin Magazine in an exclusive interview. “This price will be available until November 11, 2015. This winter, the miners will be available with no minimum order required; the price at this time has not been decided yet.”

According to BW, each 14nm chip in the miner will be able to attain anywhere from 34.6-63GH/s. The power consumption is 18W based on a voltage of 0.59V to 0.76V.

end quote

So the above says (assuming you could get one w/o bulk at the bulk price above) it would be as I type this $230.99 for a 34.6GH to 63.0GH USB Stick!

Sheesh. I can get any number of ASIC miners NOW ..electric be damned for a better return then that! Never ROI indeed!

But anyway another toy....but right now you could get 10 8gb usb stick Sidehack Gekko Miners (overclocked say to 10gh each) for 250 bucks would be 100gh NOW TODAY!
..so I sure as hell am not sure why the hell you would do the above on these BW sticks arriving in Winter 2016. The ROI is the same. A smile

but toys be toys I guess.

Sidehack sales thread here

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1126705.0 

I can't imagine anyone pre-ordering gear at this point with just renderings.  And it's a crazy quantity to buy looks like they are shooting for data centers as first customers with the amount.

I am hoping we see sales a lot different after it launches and they fill their data centers up.

[Searing]

Here you go 14nm usb chip for the masses..you pay thru the nose for it....but a cute toy (and the joys it looks like of a pre-order raffle)

Info on BW company itself


https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/the-unknown-giant-a-first-look-inside-bw-one-of-china-s-oldest-and-largest-miners-1444675310

on the supposed 14nm product

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bw-to-launch-nm-chip-and-miner-for-general-population-1445278227



from the above

quote


Along with the announcement of its bitcoin chip, the company has announced that it will be releasing a bitcoin miner for consumers that will launch in Winter 2016.
“The miners are now available for pre-order at a price of 0.87 BTC with a minimum order of 333 miners which is 1 petahash,” Virgilio Lizardo Jr., Head of International at Bitbank told Bitcoin Magazine in an exclusive interview. “This price will be available until November 11, 2015. This winter, the miners will be available with no minimum order required; the price at this time has not been decided yet.”

According to BW, each 14nm chip in the miner will be able to attain anywhere from 34.6-63GH/s. The power consumption is 18W based on a voltage of 0.59V to 0.76V.

end quote

So the above says (assuming you could get one w/o bulk at the bulk price above) it would be as I type this $230.99 for a 34.6GH to 63.0GH USB Stick!

Sheesh. I can get any number of ASIC miners NOW ..electric be damned for a better return then that! Never ROI indeed!

But anyway another toy....but right now you could get 10 8gb usb stick Sidehack Gekko Miners (overclocked say to 10gh each) for 250 bucks would be 100gh NOW TODAY!
..so I sure as hell am not sure why the hell you would do the above on these BW sticks arriving in Winter 2016. The ROI is the same. A smile

but toys be toys I guess.

Sidehack sales thread here

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1126705.0 

I can't imagine anyone pre-ordering gear at this point with just renderings.  And it's a crazy quantity to buy looks like they are shooting for data centers as first customers with the amount.

I am hoping we see sales a lot different after it launches and they fill their data centers up.

It is all gonna going to (or mostly) their data hall imho. The usb stick announce above is just to get the word out on their product. It is a gimmick. The big money will
be made internally with these chips (at cost) with cheap electric in china.

[notlist3d]

Here you go 14nm usb chip for the masses..you pay thru the nose for it....but a cute toy (and the joys it looks like of a pre-order raffle)

Info on BW company itself


https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/the-unknown-giant-a-first-look-inside-bw-one-of-china-s-oldest-and-largest-miners-1444675310

on the supposed 14nm product

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bw-to-launch-nm-chip-and-miner-for-general-population-1445278227



from the above

quote


Along with the announcement of its bitcoin chip, the company has announced that it will be releasing a bitcoin miner for consumers that will launch in Winter 2016.
“The miners are now available for pre-order at a price of 0.87 BTC with a minimum order of 333 miners which is 1 petahash,” Virgilio Lizardo Jr., Head of International at Bitbank told Bitcoin Magazine in an exclusive interview. “This price will be available until November 11, 2015. This winter, the miners will be available with no minimum order required; the price at this time has not been decided yet.”

According to BW, each 14nm chip in the miner will be able to attain anywhere from 34.6-63GH/s. The power consumption is 18W based on a voltage of 0.59V to 0.76V.

end quote

So the above says (assuming you could get one w/o bulk at the bulk price above) it would be as I type this $230.99 for a 34.6GH to 63.0GH USB Stick!

Sheesh. I can get any number of ASIC miners NOW ..electric be damned for a better return then that! Never ROI indeed!

But anyway another toy....but right now you could get 10 8gb usb stick Sidehack Gekko Miners (overclocked say to 10gh each) for 250 bucks would be 100gh NOW TODAY!
..so I sure as hell am not sure why the hell you would do the above on these BW sticks arriving in Winter 2016. The ROI is the same. A smile

but toys be toys I guess.

Sidehack sales thread here

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1126705.0 

I can't imagine anyone pre-ordering gear at this point with just renderings.  And it's a crazy quantity to buy looks like they are shooting for data centers as first customers with the amount.

I am hoping we see sales a lot different after it launches and they fill their data centers up.

It is all gonna going to (or mostly) their data hall imho. The usb stick announce above is just to get the word out on their product. It is a gimmick. The big money will
be made internally with these chips (at cost) with cheap electric in china.

I might be missing something obvious but where do they announce a USB stick?  I see a big product they just want you to order a lot of them.

333 units = 1 PH sounds like a big miner not usb stick.  But I could me misreading something.