Eventually the FUNGIBILITY issue of bitcoin will make headlines ...

[smoothie]

Bitcoin is perfectly fungible. Anyone who claims otherwise is confusing economic concepts.

we already had this discussion.
maybe bitcoin is technically fungible (because any coin can always be send an mixed) but practically you have problems when using coins which where stolen (eg bitstamp hack) or why do you think new minted coins are sold with a premium?

Indeed, and as you explain we have established that Bitcoin is "technically fungible" which is really all that matters. Fungibility is a property inherent to a system. It is not dependent on human preferences.

well we need to agree to disagree then.
i want to use money without thinking about thefts or checking its history.
it doesnt help me if is "technically fungible" when i cant use it that way.

You will, it's a matter of setting up the technology to do it. Monero is cool cause it comes with that feature baked in but it isn't impossible with Bitcoin.

I would also suggest that situations where you wouldn't be able to spend your coin are rare occurrences.

lol so it isn't perfectly fungible then right?

Of course nothing is impossible, but I would think that the unsettlement of the "block size" debate (pretty much one line of code) can't be decided upon. Yet you think the developers of bitcoin can add an entire set of code to allow UNLINKABILITY and UNTRACEABILITY?

Even bitcoin mixers leave someone with coins tracing back to its origin (assuming some stolen were mixed).

I beg to differ on that one.

It is perfectly fungible, what I am saying is you might be stupid enough to do business with people that believe or enforce this sham of "blacklists" and "taint" but that's not Bitcoin's problem.

Yet you think the developers of bitcoin can add an entire set of code to allow UNLINKABILITY and UNTRACEABILITY?

Yes

https://github.com/ElementsProject/elementsproject.github.io/blob/master/confidential_values.md

You are right it isn't bitcoin's problem. It is the user's problem.

But isn't that a cop out?

If there was a system that removed this possibility of blacklisting then I think we would be on to something.  

Bitcoin is here to serve people. If there is a problem with it, I think it should be fixed.

Block size is not something super critical that it needs to be done now...but this fungibility problem I believe is something that should be taken more seriously by the core developers.

Look you are fighting a strawman here I absolutely agree that privacy and traceability matters need to be addressed but fundamentally disagree that this issue has anything to do with Bitcoin intrinsic fungibility.

The problem is that users are not yet using it as intended. Most people are still dealing with third parties and traditional financial institutions when dabbling in their "Bitcoin finance".

No individual is actively aware of "tainted" coins and it makes absolutely no sense for them to be if they follow proper business etiquette. Stolen coins is 99% of the time the result of suckers who were irresponsible with their coins.

Yeah right now it isn't a huge problem. But I suspect we will hear of stories in news/press headlines about bitcoin's fungibility not being 100% perfect in the coming months and years.

[brg444]

All US money is numbered, so unless you have a large block of $100 sequential bills it is hard to trace. Fiat is traceable to a point, so is Bitcoin. I really have no idea why fungibility is so concerning. Bitcoin has mixers, convenience stores, grocery stores are fiat mixers, along with that nice restaurant you enjoy.

I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?


Ufo

So if I stole bitcoin and sent it to a mixer and someone else got the coin and tried to spend it and let's say that merchant flagged that address because it was linked to a hack/scam/theft...how did mixing the coins fix anything other than allowing the thief to get away with the crime?

How would the merchant have "flagged" that address? Surely this means he administers a list probably maintained by a third party to validate his Bitcoin transactions?

If so then allow me to ask you what kind of merchant you deal with? I understand a lot of people feel warm and fuzzy about the novelty of Bitcoin transactions but maybe it is time to consider how stupid the idea is to pay a fiat accepting merchant with Bitcoin. (The BitPay model).

Unless you deal with someone or a business on a peer-to-peer basis it really is not worth it as this is when you expose yourself to such shenanigans.

[smoothie]

All US money is numbered, so unless you have a large block of $100 sequential bills it is hard to trace. Fiat is traceable to a point, so is Bitcoin. I really have no idea why fungibility is so concerning. Bitcoin has mixers, convenience stores, grocery stores are fiat mixers, along with that nice restaurant you enjoy.

I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?


Ufo

So if I stole bitcoin and sent it to a mixer and someone else got the coin and tried to spend it and let's say that merchant flagged that address because it was linked to a hack/scam/theft...how did mixing the coins fix anything other than allowing the thief to get away with the crime?

How would the merchant have "flagged" that address? Surely this means he administers a list probably maintained by a third party to validate his Bitcoin transactions?

If so then allow me to ask you what kind of merchant you deal with? I understand a lot of people feel warm and fuzzy about the novelty of Bitcoin transactions but maybe it is time to consider how stupid the idea is to pay a fiat accepting merchant with Bitcoin. (The BitPay model).

Unless you deal with someone or a business on a peer-to-peer basis it really is not worth it as this is when you expose yourself to such shenanigans.

How? Easy if everything is public on the block chain any transaction can be traced back to when the coins were created.

Determine the addresses where a theft occured and trace from there.

Pretty simple. Blockseer does this in a visual format.

You keep assuming it is only related to fiat accepting merchants.

Uses BEANIE BABIES or your favorite thing, service, digital good.

Once again my point still stands.

[brg444]

Any bitcoin business that went along with say adding code that obfuscated transactions to a point that there is unlinkability and untraceability would have problems with regulators assuming they were AML/KYC compliant etc or whatever the regulation is.

There lies the issue with your logic.

In the world we are heading for these type of things don't exist. This is what I mean when I propose you are too mindfucked on fiat to see straight.

At the chance you have cared to read and didn't quite grok this part this is what Mircea means here:

First off, I do understand why you would think there is. Honestly. You're used to a certain system, you grew up in a certain system, you expect the trappings of that system anywhere you go.

Ever gone camping, fishing, hiking, and turned your eyes looking for the faucet or power outlet or wifi modem lights or whatever ? Sure, rationally you know and understand that you're in the bellybutton of fucking nowhere, and there never was and never existed such a thing as you're looking for within a hundred miles. Nevertheless, at some level, your brain expects that faucet. What do you mean nobody has ever laid a hundred miles of pipe/cable/bacon trails all the way to right over here ?! Impossibru!

http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/#selection-39.0-45.507

[smoothie]

Any bitcoin business that went along with say adding code that obfuscated transactions to a point that there is unlinkability and untraceability would have problems with regulators assuming they were AML/KYC compliant etc or whatever the regulation is.

There lies the issue with your logic.

In the world we are heading for these type of things don't exist. This is what I mean when I propose you are too mindfucked on fiat to see straight.

At the chance you have cared to read and didn't quite grok this part this is what Mircea means here:

First off, I do understand why you would think there is. Honestly. You're used to a certain system, you grew up in a certain system, you expect the trappings of that system anywhere you go.

Ever gone camping, fishing, hiking, and turned your eyes looking for the faucet or power outlet or wifi modem lights or whatever ? Sure, rationally you know and understand that you're in the bellybutton of fucking nowhere, and there never was and never existed such a thing as you're looking for within a hundred miles. Nevertheless, at some level, your brain expects that faucet. What do you mean nobody has ever laid a hundred miles of pipe/cable/bacon trails all the way to right over here ?! Impossibru!

http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/#selection-39.0-45.507

Just because I used that example does not mean it doesn't exist to have legal implications elsewhere.

let's say it is outlawed to deal in blacklisted addresses determined by your local government...yes you can move but to a certain degree what if that happens in that other country?

It doesn't only apply to AML/KYC institutions...it can apply to individuals.

Think of it as filing your taxes in the US and not reporting your income. There can be instituted laws that would apply to dealing with addresses that have been black listed.

It's stupid I agree...but since when are our governments really smart and efficient and for the people?

We live in a fucked up world yes =)

[brg444]

All US money is numbered, so unless you have a large block of $100 sequential bills it is hard to trace. Fiat is traceable to a point, so is Bitcoin. I really have no idea why fungibility is so concerning. Bitcoin has mixers, convenience stores, grocery stores are fiat mixers, along with that nice restaurant you enjoy.

I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?


Ufo

So if I stole bitcoin and sent it to a mixer and someone else got the coin and tried to spend it and let's say that merchant flagged that address because it was linked to a hack/scam/theft...how did mixing the coins fix anything other than allowing the thief to get away with the crime?

How would the merchant have "flagged" that address? Surely this means he administers a list probably maintained by a third party to validate his Bitcoin transactions?

If so then allow me to ask you what kind of merchant you deal with? I understand a lot of people feel warm and fuzzy about the novelty of Bitcoin transactions but maybe it is time to consider how stupid the idea is to pay a fiat accepting merchant with Bitcoin. (The BitPay model).

Unless you deal with someone or a business on a peer-to-peer basis it really is not worth it as this is when you expose yourself to such shenanigans.

How? Easy if everything is public on the block chain any transaction can be traced back to when the coins were created.

Determine the addresses where a theft occured and trace from there.

Pretty simple. Blockseer does this in a visual format.

You're paranoiac. Nobody cares to go through this to enter in a transaction, what the hell are you thinking? No proper user wallet as they exist today keeps such lists of transactions. Bitcoin-qt does not include a circumstantial account of every coin and transactions in the network, only inputs and outputs. Why do you care if you accept a stolen bill, a "tainted" bitcoin? Are you really going to look up the story of each bitcoin you are trying to purchase. Have you?

[brg444]

Any bitcoin business that went along with say adding code that obfuscated transactions to a point that there is unlinkability and untraceability would have problems with regulators assuming they were AML/KYC compliant etc or whatever the regulation is.

There lies the issue with your logic.

In the world we are heading for these type of things don't exist. This is what I mean when I propose you are too mindfucked on fiat to see straight.

At the chance you have cared to read and didn't quite grok this part this is what Mircea means here:

First off, I do understand why you would think there is. Honestly. You're used to a certain system, you grew up in a certain system, you expect the trappings of that system anywhere you go.

Ever gone camping, fishing, hiking, and turned your eyes looking for the faucet or power outlet or wifi modem lights or whatever ? Sure, rationally you know and understand that you're in the bellybutton of fucking nowhere, and there never was and never existed such a thing as you're looking for within a hundred miles. Nevertheless, at some level, your brain expects that faucet. What do you mean nobody has ever laid a hundred miles of pipe/cable/bacon trails all the way to right over here ?! Impossibru!

http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/#selection-39.0-45.507

Just because I used that example does not mean it doesn't exist to have legal implications elsewhere.

let's say it is outlawed to deal in blacklisted addresses determined by your local government...yes you can move but to a certain degree what if that happens in that other country?

How exactly do you propose they enforce this blacklist.

[smoothie]

All US money is numbered, so unless you have a large block of $100 sequential bills it is hard to trace. Fiat is traceable to a point, so is Bitcoin. I really have no idea why fungibility is so concerning. Bitcoin has mixers, convenience stores, grocery stores are fiat mixers, along with that nice restaurant you enjoy.

I don see this being an issue, but maybe my tinfoil hat isn't on tight enough?


Ufo

So if I stole bitcoin and sent it to a mixer and someone else got the coin and tried to spend it and let's say that merchant flagged that address because it was linked to a hack/scam/theft...how did mixing the coins fix anything other than allowing the thief to get away with the crime?

How would the merchant have "flagged" that address? Surely this means he administers a list probably maintained by a third party to validate his Bitcoin transactions?

If so then allow me to ask you what kind of merchant you deal with? I understand a lot of people feel warm and fuzzy about the novelty of Bitcoin transactions but maybe it is time to consider how stupid the idea is to pay a fiat accepting merchant with Bitcoin. (The BitPay model).

Unless you deal with someone or a business on a peer-to-peer basis it really is not worth it as this is when you expose yourself to such shenanigans.

How? Easy if everything is public on the block chain any transaction can be traced back to when the coins were created.

Determine the addresses where a theft occured and trace from there.

Pretty simple. Blockseer does this in a visual format.

You're paranoiac. Nobody cares to go through this to enter in a transaction, what the hell are you thinking? No proper user wallet as they exist today keeps such lists of transactions. Bitcoin-qt does not include a circumstantial account of every coin and transactions in the network, only inputs and outputs. Why do you care if you accept a stolen bill, a "tainted" bitcoin? Are you really going to look up the story of each bitcoin you are trying to purchase. Have you?

When did I say they did?

I said they could do this. No where did I mention bitcoin-qt.

please refer to my original title of the thread as you seem to be very passionate about something that we obviously disagree on.

[smoothie]

Any bitcoin business that went along with say adding code that obfuscated transactions to a point that there is unlinkability and untraceability would have problems with regulators assuming they were AML/KYC compliant etc or whatever the regulation is.

There lies the issue with your logic.

In the world we are heading for these type of things don't exist. This is what I mean when I propose you are too mindfucked on fiat to see straight.

At the chance you have cared to read and didn't quite grok this part this is what Mircea means here:

First off, I do understand why you would think there is. Honestly. You're used to a certain system, you grew up in a certain system, you expect the trappings of that system anywhere you go.

Ever gone camping, fishing, hiking, and turned your eyes looking for the faucet or power outlet or wifi modem lights or whatever ? Sure, rationally you know and understand that you're in the bellybutton of fucking nowhere, and there never was and never existed such a thing as you're looking for within a hundred miles. Nevertheless, at some level, your brain expects that faucet. What do you mean nobody has ever laid a hundred miles of pipe/cable/bacon trails all the way to right over here ?! Impossibru!

http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/#selection-39.0-45.507

Just because I used that example does not mean it doesn't exist to have legal implications elsewhere.

let's say it is outlawed to deal in blacklisted addresses determined by your local government...yes you can move but to a certain degree what if that happens in that other country?

How exactly do you propose they enforce this blacklist.

Simple I don't propose they do.

But it is possible it could happen.

[brg444]

Any bitcoin business that went along with say adding code that obfuscated transactions to a point that there is unlinkability and untraceability would have problems with regulators assuming they were AML/KYC compliant etc or whatever the regulation is.

There lies the issue with your logic.

In the world we are heading for these type of things don't exist. This is what I mean when I propose you are too mindfucked on fiat to see straight.

At the chance you have cared to read and didn't quite grok this part this is what Mircea means here:

First off, I do understand why you would think there is. Honestly. You're used to a certain system, you grew up in a certain system, you expect the trappings of that system anywhere you go.

Ever gone camping, fishing, hiking, and turned your eyes looking for the faucet or power outlet or wifi modem lights or whatever ? Sure, rationally you know and understand that you're in the bellybutton of fucking nowhere, and there never was and never existed such a thing as you're looking for within a hundred miles. Nevertheless, at some level, your brain expects that faucet. What do you mean nobody has ever laid a hundred miles of pipe/cable/bacon trails all the way to right over here ?! Impossibru!

http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/#selection-39.0-45.507

Just because I used that example does not mean it doesn't exist to have legal implications elsewhere.

let's say it is outlawed to deal in blacklisted addresses determined by your local government...yes you can move but to a certain degree what if that happens in that other country?

How exactly do you propose they enforce this blacklist.

Simple I don't propose they do.

But it is possible it could happen.

I'm telling you they can't.

[jonald_fyookball]

Any bitcoin business that went along with say adding code that obfuscated transactions to a point that there is unlinkability and untraceability would have problems with regulators assuming they were AML/KYC compliant etc or whatever the regulation is.

There lies the issue with your logic.

In the world we are heading for these type of things don't exist. This is what I mean when I propose you are too mindfucked on fiat to see straight.

At the chance you have cared to read and didn't quite grok this part this is what Mircea means here:

First off, I do understand why you would think there is. Honestly. You're used to a certain system, you grew up in a certain system, you expect the trappings of that system anywhere you go.

Ever gone camping, fishing, hiking, and turned your eyes looking for the faucet or power outlet or wifi modem lights or whatever ? Sure, rationally you know and understand that you're in the bellybutton of fucking nowhere, and there never was and never existed such a thing as you're looking for within a hundred miles. Nevertheless, at some level, your brain expects that faucet. What do you mean nobody has ever laid a hundred miles of pipe/cable/bacon trails all the way to right over here ?! Impossibru!

http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/#selection-39.0-45.507

Just because I used that example does not mean it doesn't exist to have legal implications elsewhere.

let's say it is outlawed to deal in blacklisted addresses determined by your local government...yes you can move but to a certain degree what if that happens in that other country?

How exactly do you propose they enforce this blacklist.

Simple I don't propose they do.

But it is possible it could happen.

Seems very unlikely because everyone's spent outputs are constantly being combined with everyone else's spent outputs.
If you were a regulator and wanted to implement blacklisting, how would you get around this issue?

[smoothie]

Any bitcoin business that went along with say adding code that obfuscated transactions to a point that there is unlinkability and untraceability would have problems with regulators assuming they were AML/KYC compliant etc or whatever the regulation is.

There lies the issue with your logic.

In the world we are heading for these type of things don't exist. This is what I mean when I propose you are too mindfucked on fiat to see straight.

At the chance you have cared to read and didn't quite grok this part this is what Mircea means here:

First off, I do understand why you would think there is. Honestly. You're used to a certain system, you grew up in a certain system, you expect the trappings of that system anywhere you go.

Ever gone camping, fishing, hiking, and turned your eyes looking for the faucet or power outlet or wifi modem lights or whatever ? Sure, rationally you know and understand that you're in the bellybutton of fucking nowhere, and there never was and never existed such a thing as you're looking for within a hundred miles. Nevertheless, at some level, your brain expects that faucet. What do you mean nobody has ever laid a hundred miles of pipe/cable/bacon trails all the way to right over here ?! Impossibru!

http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/#selection-39.0-45.507

Just because I used that example does not mean it doesn't exist to have legal implications elsewhere.

let's say it is outlawed to deal in blacklisted addresses determined by your local government...yes you can move but to a certain degree what if that happens in that other country?

How exactly do you propose they enforce this blacklist.

Simple I don't propose they do.

But it is possible it could happen.

I'm telling you they can't.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. I believe it is possible. I'm sure some people thought that something called the "income tax" was impossible...it is unjust in my mind but it exists.

Governments these days are getting away with a lot, so I believe there are things we wouldnt dream would be put into place and enforced upon us.

I disagree with bitcoin core devs implementing successfully any version that allows both un(link/trace)ability in any meaningful amount of time.

Let's agree to disagree.

[smoothie]

Any bitcoin business that went along with say adding code that obfuscated transactions to a point that there is unlinkability and untraceability would have problems with regulators assuming they were AML/KYC compliant etc or whatever the regulation is.

There lies the issue with your logic.

In the world we are heading for these type of things don't exist. This is what I mean when I propose you are too mindfucked on fiat to see straight.

At the chance you have cared to read and didn't quite grok this part this is what Mircea means here:

First off, I do understand why you would think there is. Honestly. You're used to a certain system, you grew up in a certain system, you expect the trappings of that system anywhere you go.

Ever gone camping, fishing, hiking, and turned your eyes looking for the faucet or power outlet or wifi modem lights or whatever ? Sure, rationally you know and understand that you're in the bellybutton of fucking nowhere, and there never was and never existed such a thing as you're looking for within a hundred miles. Nevertheless, at some level, your brain expects that faucet. What do you mean nobody has ever laid a hundred miles of pipe/cable/bacon trails all the way to right over here ?! Impossibru!

http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/#selection-39.0-45.507

Just because I used that example does not mean it doesn't exist to have legal implications elsewhere.

let's say it is outlawed to deal in blacklisted addresses determined by your local government...yes you can move but to a certain degree what if that happens in that other country?

How exactly do you propose they enforce this blacklist.

Simple I don't propose they do.

But it is possible it could happen.

Seems very unlikely because everyone's spent outputs are constantly being combined with everyone else's spent outputs.
If you were a regulator and wanted to implement blacklisting, how would you get around this issue?

Everyone's spent outputs combined with everyone's spent outputs? Not all the time. There are obvious paths on the block chain of transactions if you dig enough a regulator/government can find what they need.

LIke I said in the OP there will come a day when a new user will buy bitcoins (say locally for cash) and when he goes to use them at a business or exchange or where ever they will be rejected. Not 100% of the time...but it will happen and we all know how the media today loves to jump on anything bitcoin related that is negative.

Please reference the OP as it was a prediction and just that.

[jonald_fyookball]

Everyone's spent outputs combined with everyone's spent outputs? Not all the time.

LIke I said in the OP there will come a day when a new user will buy bitcoins (say locally for cash) and when he goes to use them at a business or exchange or where ever they will be rejected. Not 100% of the time...but it will happen and we all know how the media today loves to jump on anything bitcoin related that is negative.

Please reference the OP as it was a prediction and just that.

Ok, I'll grant you that, but is it really a big deal if it outputs aren't combined "all the time"? 
The people that have the "hottest" Bitcoins are obviously going to go to the most trouble to
mix and detaint them...and they do that already not because of blacklisting, but because
they need to remain anonymous and stay out of jail for theft.

[brg444]

Any bitcoin business that went along with say adding code that obfuscated transactions to a point that there is unlinkability and untraceability would have problems with regulators assuming they were AML/KYC compliant etc or whatever the regulation is.

There lies the issue with your logic.

In the world we are heading for these type of things don't exist. This is what I mean when I propose you are too mindfucked on fiat to see straight.

At the chance you have cared to read and didn't quite grok this part this is what Mircea means here:

First off, I do understand why you would think there is. Honestly. You're used to a certain system, you grew up in a certain system, you expect the trappings of that system anywhere you go.

Ever gone camping, fishing, hiking, and turned your eyes looking for the faucet or power outlet or wifi modem lights or whatever ? Sure, rationally you know and understand that you're in the bellybutton of fucking nowhere, and there never was and never existed such a thing as you're looking for within a hundred miles. Nevertheless, at some level, your brain expects that faucet. What do you mean nobody has ever laid a hundred miles of pipe/cable/bacon trails all the way to right over here ?! Impossibru!

http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/#selection-39.0-45.507

Just because I used that example does not mean it doesn't exist to have legal implications elsewhere.

let's say it is outlawed to deal in blacklisted addresses determined by your local government...yes you can move but to a certain degree what if that happens in that other country?

How exactly do you propose they enforce this blacklist.

Simple I don't propose they do.

But it is possible it could happen.

I'm telling you they can't.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. I believe it is possible. I'm sure some people thought that something called the "income tax" was impossible...it is unjust in my mind but it exists.

Governments these days are getting away with a lot, so I believe there are things we wouldnt dream would be put into place and enforced upon us.

What you are saying is absolute nonsense.

The only possible ways to enforce blacklists into Bitcoin is to hard code them in the protocol. Otherwise any peer on the network can transact with any other peer and his bitcoin will not be subjected to any discrimination whatsoever.

Any other scenario involves trust in a third party which means you are really in fact not using Bitcoin at all. 

[brg444]

LIke I said in the OP there will come a day when a new user will buy bitcoins (say locally for cash) and when he goes to use them at a business or exchange or where ever they will be rejected. Not 100% of the time...but it will happen and we all know how the media today loves to jump on anything bitcoin related that is negative.

For the millionth time this is only true if you choose to do business with a company who does not actually accept bitcoin but fiat. If you happen to transact with a user or a company in a peer-to-peer manner on the Bitcoin network there will never be such a thing as "transaction rejected".

[smoothie]

Any bitcoin business that went along with say adding code that obfuscated transactions to a point that there is unlinkability and untraceability would have problems with regulators assuming they were AML/KYC compliant etc or whatever the regulation is.

There lies the issue with your logic.

In the world we are heading for these type of things don't exist. This is what I mean when I propose you are too mindfucked on fiat to see straight.

At the chance you have cared to read and didn't quite grok this part this is what Mircea means here:

First off, I do understand why you would think there is. Honestly. You're used to a certain system, you grew up in a certain system, you expect the trappings of that system anywhere you go.

Ever gone camping, fishing, hiking, and turned your eyes looking for the faucet or power outlet or wifi modem lights or whatever ? Sure, rationally you know and understand that you're in the bellybutton of fucking nowhere, and there never was and never existed such a thing as you're looking for within a hundred miles. Nevertheless, at some level, your brain expects that faucet. What do you mean nobody has ever laid a hundred miles of pipe/cable/bacon trails all the way to right over here ?! Impossibru!

http://trilema.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/#selection-39.0-45.507

Just because I used that example does not mean it doesn't exist to have legal implications elsewhere.

let's say it is outlawed to deal in blacklisted addresses determined by your local government...yes you can move but to a certain degree what if that happens in that other country?

How exactly do you propose they enforce this blacklist.

Simple I don't propose they do.

But it is possible it could happen.

I'm telling you they can't.

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. I believe it is possible. I'm sure some people thought that something called the "income tax" was impossible...it is unjust in my mind but it exists.

Governments these days are getting away with a lot, so I believe there are things we wouldnt dream would be put into place and enforced upon us.

What you are saying is absolute nonsense.

The only possible ways to enforce blacklists into Bitcoin is to hard code them in the protocol. Otherwise any peer on the network can transact with any other peer and his bitcoin will not be subjected to any discrimination whatsoever.

Any other scenario involves trust in a third party which means you are really in fact not using Bitcoin at all. 

Who said they were going to enforce blacklists into Bitcoin...and not ON TOP OF BITCOIN?

Ever heard of building upon bitcoin?

[smoothie]

LIke I said in the OP there will come a day when a new user will buy bitcoins (say locally for cash) and when he goes to use them at a business or exchange or where ever they will be rejected. Not 100% of the time...but it will happen and we all know how the media today loves to jump on anything bitcoin related that is negative.

For the millionth time this is only true if you choose to do business with a company who does not actually accept bitcoin but fiat. If you happen to transact with a user or a company in a peer-to-peer manner on the Bitcoin network there will never be such a thing as "transaction rejected".

Yeah that can be debunked as well.

Say country X implements law Y that says everyone who uses bitcoin can't accept bitcoins from the List Z of blacklisted addresses.

If A (only one) person chooses to adhere to that regulation, and someone tries to exchange between P2P ...and they are afraid of their government cracking down on them...it can and will happen. Your "never" presumption goes out the window.

You ignore the possibility that P2P transactions could exist where you are required by your government to run the paying address through something built on top of bitcoin (even just a website) and it spits out a POSITIVE (GO signal to do transactions with that person) or NEGATIVE  (stop signal to not do a transaction with that person).

It is possible.

Governments will think of ways to control every aspect of a market if they can.

[jonald_fyookball]

You ignore the possibility that P2P transactions could exist where you are required by your government to run the paying address through something built on top of bitcoin (even just a website)

If people largely comply with that, we've already lost. 

The whole point of Bitcoin is that its permissionless and peer to peer.

[Gleb Gamow]

VC: So, BitPay, is there any good news pertaining to our $30M+ investment?

BitPay: Yes. We opted to not except certain bitcoins AND reject potential clients from using our services. Hey, while you're here, you guys know of any other actors with giant dicks interested in giving us a transfusion? Team Two a Half Men (Tony, Stephen & Bryan) are kinda hurtin'.