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September 26, 2015, 06:00:56 PM
 #1

Hi forum,

I see alot of scammers and ponzi scammers on this forum. I think we need a new staff rank, scam buster. It is just as a normal member, but this user can give "ban point" scammers with proof. If the scammer has 2 or more "ban points" than the scammer is getting IP banned.
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September 26, 2015, 06:08:25 PM
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as people already said so many times, scams are not moderated.

if you think someone is a scammer, leave a negative feedback or open a scam accusation with proof against that user. let the buyer community beware.
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September 26, 2015, 06:10:02 PM
 #3

as people already said so many times, scams are not moderated.

if you think someone is a scammer, leave a negative feedback or open a scam accusation with proof against that user. let the buyer community beware.
Yes, that is why we need volontiers that can name this rank and volontiers that can be this rank.
I think it would really help the forum.
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September 26, 2015, 06:12:46 PM
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Good idea but I think people from default trust are there for that
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September 26, 2015, 06:14:08 PM
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Yes, that is why we need volontiers that can name this rank and volontiers that can be this rank.
I think it would really help the forum.

you're missing my point. getting banned = moderated.
that's not going to happen anytime soon unless theymos change the forum policy on scams.
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September 26, 2015, 06:15:50 PM
 #6

as people already said so many times, scams are not moderated.

if you think someone is a scammer, leave a negative feedback or open a scam accusation with proof against that user. let the buyer community beware.
Yes, that is why we need volontiers that can name this rank and volontiers that can be this rank.
I think it would really help the forum.

There are people that do just this, but they come under enormous and constant attacks from scammers and hoards of alts. They post often times fake, inaccurate or false DOX, make absurd claims and often unfounded counter accusations. Rubberneckers then chime in often throwing red around like candy at a county fair. Not many will help out with this kind of barrage.
Have you not been paying attention?

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September 26, 2015, 06:22:55 PM
 #7

Hi forum,

I see alot of scammers and ponzi scammers on this forum. I think we need a new staff rank, scam buster. It is just as a normal member, but this user can give "ban point" scammers with proof. If the scammer has 2 or more "ban points" than the scammer is getting IP banned.

No. Thats really all that needs to be said, but I suppose I'll elaborate. If we wanted to enforce (or misinforce) scam prevention measures, it would be done by full staff members, not giving regular members the ability to ban. Regular moderators can't ban, Global Moderators can only perma ban, and Admins are the only usergroup that can temp ban.

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September 26, 2015, 07:07:40 PM
 #8

If you want to call out ponzi schemes and newbies asking for loans without collateral, you shouldn't get shit for it. I would hate to see even more incentive given to this. There's already too much "scam busting" -- including a lot baseless accusations without evidence.

I'd prefer to see a culture that emphasizes protecting yourself rather than one that emphasizes policing scammers. The latter allows for some individuals to attain an unwarranted level of trust from the community, which will later be abused. It also encourages continued coddling by the Default Trust system, rather than inexperienced traders learning how to protect themselves when doing business.

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September 26, 2015, 07:52:31 PM
 #9

Hi forum,

I see alot of scammers and ponzi scammers on this forum. I think we need a new staff rank, scam buster. It is just as a normal member, but this user can give "ban point" scammers with proof. If the scammer has 2 or more "ban points" than the scammer is getting IP banned.

No. Thats really all that needs to be said, but I suppose I'll elaborate. If we wanted to enforce (or misinforce) scam prevention measures, it would be done by full staff members, not giving regular members the ability to ban. Regular moderators can't ban, Global Moderators can only perma ban, and Admins are the only usergroup that can temp ban.
No, the regular members can not ban someone, it is someone whobis now staff or in default trust in depth 1 or 2.
Do you think it would be helpfull?
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September 26, 2015, 08:05:44 PM
 #10

There is default trust for this, they mark the scammers and give them negative trust and they user get red warning under his username this is enough for others to understand that this user can't be trusted
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September 26, 2015, 08:30:54 PM
 #11

There is default trust for this, they mark the scammers and give them negative trust and they user get red warning under his username this is enough for others to understand that this user can't be trusted
Yes, but the scammer can easily create a new forum account and promotie another ponzi or performance another stupid scam attempt. That is why ban IP should be set.
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September 26, 2015, 08:39:02 PM
 #12

There is default trust for this, they mark the scammers and give them negative trust and they user get red warning under his username this is enough for others to understand that this user can't be trusted
Yes, but the scammer can easily create a new forum account and promotie another ponzi or performance another stupid scam attempt. That is why ban IP should be set.

I think you missed to core point against your suggestion. Scams cannot be moderated to prevent abuse of power. It's a core forum guideline.
If you can't give someone the privileges, the rank is useless.

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September 26, 2015, 08:52:07 PM
 #13

There is default trust for this, they mark the scammers and give them negative trust and they user get red warning under his username this is enough for others to understand that this user can't be trusted

And what about innocent people who are red marked?
Do you think the forum will be better with red marked innocents?

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September 26, 2015, 08:58:50 PM
 #14

There is default trust for this, they mark the scammers and give them negative trust and they user get red warning under his username this is enough for others to understand that this user can't be trusted

And what about innocent people who are red marked?
Do you think the forum will be better with red marked innocents?

Anyone with common sense don't see a big difference between someone who's red and someone who's neutral.
Anyone with common sense should always use an escrow service even when trading with the most reputable member.
To me it doesn't really matter. People can interpret why feedback was left and validate it themselves.

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September 26, 2015, 09:03:05 PM
 #15

There is default trust for this, they mark the scammers and give them negative trust and they user get red warning under his username this is enough for others to understand that this user can't be trusted

And what about innocent people who are red marked?
Do you think the forum will be better with red marked innocents?

Anyone with common sense don't see a big difference between someone who's red and someone who's neutral.
Anyone with common sense should always use an escrow service even when trading with the most reputable member.
To me it doesn't really matter. People can interpret why feedback was left and validate it themselves.
U think that people with coommon sense use ESCROW, but why I still see many scam accusations, because they think they deal with trusted people so don't use ESCROW.

Always use ESCROW
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September 26, 2015, 09:15:48 PM
 #16

There is default trust for this, they mark the scammers and give them negative trust and they user get red warning under his username this is enough for others to understand that this user can't be trusted

And what about innocent people who are red marked?
Do you think the forum will be better with red marked innocents?

Anyone with common sense don't see a big difference between someone who's red and someone who's neutral.
Anyone with common sense should always use an escrow service even when trading with the most reputable member.
To me it doesn't really matter. People can interpret why feedback was left and validate it themselves.
U think that people with coommon sense use ESCROW, but why I still see many scam accusations, because they think they deal with trusted people so don't use ESCROW.

Always use ESCROW

Unfortunately a lot of people lack common sense but I don't feel sorry for them.
I really hate the idea of wasting time/resources to protect people who could just better themselves.

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September 27, 2015, 02:24:58 AM
 #17

Hi forum,

I see alot of scammers and ponzi scammers on this forum. I think we need a new staff rank, scam buster. It is just as a normal member, but this user can give "ban point" scammers with proof. If the scammer has 2 or more "ban points" than the scammer is getting IP banned.

No. Thats really all that needs to be said, but I suppose I'll elaborate. If we wanted to enforce (or misinforce) scam prevention measures, it would be done by full staff members, not giving regular members the ability to ban. Regular moderators can't ban, Global Moderators can only perma ban, and Admins are the only usergroup that can temp ban.
Hey, stupid question here but why can global mods perma ban but not temp ban?
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September 27, 2015, 01:52:23 PM
 #18

Hi forum,

I see alot of scammers and ponzi scammers on this forum. I think we need a new staff rank, scam buster.

No, we don't. Scams are already unmoderated. There's also no need for another staff rank, and giving regular members this rank and the ability to start banning people is really dangerous.

It is just as a normal member, but this user can give "ban point" scammers with proof. If the scammer has 2 or more "ban points" than the scammer is getting IP banned.

That's a bad idea. Way too abusable, even if scams were moderated. And what if the community temporarily thinks someone is a scammer?

I'm dabbling in Bitcointalk again - I won't be making trades with people. If I try to trade with you, ask for a signature from my address 171717... which I have had control of since about 2015. If I can't provide it, I might have been hacked.
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September 27, 2015, 03:21:01 PM
 #19

Hi forum,

I see alot of scammers and ponzi scammers on this forum. I think we need a new staff rank, scam buster.

No, we don't. Scams are already unmoderated. There's also no need for another staff rank, and giving regular members this rank and the ability to start banning people is really dangerous.

It is just as a normal member, but this user can give "ban point" scammers with proof. If the scammer has 2 or more "ban points" than the scammer is getting IP banned.

That's a bad idea. Way too abusable, even if scams were moderated. And what if the community temporarily thinks someone is a scammer?
Only people are banned if there is valid proof, i dont see that this idea is abuseable.
Can you explain to me in what way it is abuseable? If u choose persons from DT, what is wrong?
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September 27, 2015, 03:26:53 PM
 #20

Hi forum,

I see alot of scammers and ponzi scammers on this forum. I think we need a new staff rank, scam buster.

No, we don't. Scams are already unmoderated. There's also no need for another staff rank, and giving regular members this rank and the ability to start banning people is really dangerous.

It is just as a normal member, but this user can give "ban point" scammers with proof. If the scammer has 2 or more "ban points" than the scammer is getting IP banned.

That's a bad idea. Way too abusable, even if scams were moderated. And what if the community temporarily thinks someone is a scammer?
Only people are banned if there is valid proof, i dont see that this idea is abuseable.
Can you explain to me in what way it is abuseable? If u choose persons from DT, what is wrong?

This is not possible, it will be an hard work for all the staff members and honestly they are here to moderate the forum ... not to catch the scammers Wink.
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September 27, 2015, 03:42:36 PM
 #21

Hi forum,

I see alot of scammers and ponzi scammers on this forum. I think we need a new staff rank, scam buster.

No, we don't. Scams are already unmoderated. There's also no need for another staff rank, and giving regular members this rank and the ability to start banning people is really dangerous.

It is just as a normal member, but this user can give "ban point" scammers with proof. If the scammer has 2 or more "ban points" than the scammer is getting IP banned.

That's a bad idea. Way too abusable, even if scams were moderated. And what if the community temporarily thinks someone is a scammer?
Only people are banned if there is valid proof, i dont see that this idea is abuseable.
Can you explain to me in what way it is abuseable? If u choose persons from DT, what is wrong?

This is not possible, it will be an hard work for all the staff members and honestly they are here to moderate the forum ... not to catch the scammers Wink.
Yes, I know, but wouldn't it be good feeling if the risk of getting scammed is low because all the scammers are busted and banned? I think it is hard work, but it is reachable, unfortunate no people agree with me Sad
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September 27, 2015, 03:47:49 PM
 #22

Hi forum,

I see alot of scammers and ponzi scammers on this forum. I think we need a new staff rank, scam buster.

No, we don't. Scams are already unmoderated. There's also no need for another staff rank, and giving regular members this rank and the ability to start banning people is really dangerous.

It is just as a normal member, but this user can give "ban point" scammers with proof. If the scammer has 2 or more "ban points" than the scammer is getting IP banned.

That's a bad idea. Way too abusable, even if scams were moderated. And what if the community temporarily thinks someone is a scammer?
Only people are banned if there is valid proof, i dont see that this idea is abuseable.
Can you explain to me in what way it is abuseable? If u choose persons from DT, what is wrong?

This is not possible, it will be an hard work for all the staff members and honestly they are here to moderate the forum ... not to catch the scammers Wink.
Yes, I know, but wouldn't it be good feeling if the risk of getting scammed is low because all the scammers are busted and banned? I think it is hard work, but it is reachable, unfortunate no people agree with me Sad

If you don't trust an user, simple don't trade with him or better use an escrow (if you don't find an escrow, don't complete the trade). Scammer will never be banned from the forum and the users should start to trade with diligence.

That's my opinion...
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September 27, 2015, 03:50:01 PM
 #23

Hi forum,

I see alot of scammers and ponzi scammers on this forum. I think we need a new staff rank, scam buster.

No, we don't. Scams are already unmoderated. There's also no need for another staff rank, and giving regular members this rank and the ability to start banning people is really dangerous.

It is just as a normal member, but this user can give "ban point" scammers with proof. If the scammer has 2 or more "ban points" than the scammer is getting IP banned.

That's a bad idea. Way too abusable, even if scams were moderated. And what if the community temporarily thinks someone is a scammer?
Only people are banned if there is valid proof, i dont see that this idea is abuseable.
Can you explain to me in what way it is abuseable? If u choose persons from DT, what is wrong?

This is not possible, it will be an hard work for all the staff members and honestly they are here to moderate the forum ... not to catch the scammers Wink.
Yes, I know, but wouldn't it be good feeling if the risk of getting scammed is low because all the scammers are busted and banned? I think it is hard work, but it is reachable, unfortunate no people agree with me Sad

If you don't trust an user, simple don't trade with him or better use an escrow (if you don't find an escrow, don't complete the trade). Scammer will never be banned from the forum and the users should start to trade with diligence.

That's my opinion...
Yes, I know when not to deal with someone, but I thought not all people can see a scammer right away.
So I thought, make it easier, but no it seems not an good idea.
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September 27, 2015, 04:04:14 PM
 #24

Only people are banned if there is valid proof, i dont see that this idea is abuseable.
Can you explain to me in what way it is abuseable? If u choose persons from DT, what is wrong?

Way too much work for the mods, way too easy to make frivolous claims. People from DT are also not necessarily good choices for this role. The role also just seems like it wouldn't be a good fit for this forum, in my opinion.

Either way, scams are unmoderated for more reasons than the mod workload it'd create. That's why the trust system exists.

I'm dabbling in Bitcointalk again - I won't be making trades with people. If I try to trade with you, ask for a signature from my address 171717... which I have had control of since about 2015. If I can't provide it, I might have been hacked.
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September 27, 2015, 04:09:02 PM
 #25

Only people are banned if there is valid proof, i dont see that this idea is abuseable.
Can you explain to me in what way it is abuseable? If u choose persons from DT, what is wrong?

Way too much work for the mods, way too easy to make frivolous claims. People from DT are also not necessarily good choices for this role. The role also just seems like it wouldn't be a good fit for this forum, in my opinion.

Either way, scams are unmoderated for more reasons than the mod workload it'd create. That's why the trust system exists.
Yes i see that, trust system is builded to prevent another scam from the same user. But the user can easily create another account withtout other people knowing he was a scammer with an other account. So mayby if someone craetes an account and scams someone, and create another account then it should give a warning:"this is a scammers alt account!!!". U can easily do this by IP tracking.
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September 27, 2015, 04:14:56 PM
 #26

Yes i see that, trust system is builded to prevent another scam from the same user. But the user can easily create another account withtout other people knowing he was a scammer with an other account. So mayby if someone craetes an account and scams someone, and create another account then it should give a warning:"this is a scammers alt account!!!". U can easily do this by IP tracking.

You could. What if someone doesn't have negative trust due to scamming, though? That might also be a bit of a pain to implement.

Maybe have accounts with negative trust add units of evil to your IP, though. That'd be good. EDIT: Made a thread suggesting that Smiley

I'm dabbling in Bitcointalk again - I won't be making trades with people. If I try to trade with you, ask for a signature from my address 171717... which I have had control of since about 2015. If I can't provide it, I might have been hacked.
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September 27, 2015, 04:27:06 PM
 #27

Yes i see that, trust system is builded to prevent another scam from the same user. But the user can easily create another account withtout other people knowing he was a scammer with an other account. So mayby if someone craetes an account and scams someone, and create another account then it should give a warning:"this is a scammers alt account!!!". U can easily do this by IP tracking.

You could. What if someone doesn't have negative trust due to scamming, though? That might also be a bit of a pain to implement.

Maybe have accounts with negative trust add units of evil to your IP, though. That'd be good. EDIT: Made a thread suggesting that Smiley
I think everyone who have scammed has received negative trust rating from the victim itself and from Default Trust member who are scam bisting Smiley

Yes that idea is like my 2 ideas combined. Ban points = Units of Evil and both have it connected to your IP address. But then we have problems with proxy/vpn...
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September 27, 2015, 04:28:49 PM
 #28

I think everyone who have scammed has received negative trust rating from the victim itself and from Default Trust member who are scam bisting Smiley

You mis-interpreted what I said. Not everyone has negative trust that is due to scamming.

Yes that idea is like my 2 ideas combined. Ban points = Units of Evil and both have it connected to your IP address. But then we have problems with proxy/vpn...

No, your idea is still a bad idea, for the reasons I stated earlier. I don't think giving that much power to normal people is a good idea.

I'm dabbling in Bitcointalk again - I won't be making trades with people. If I try to trade with you, ask for a signature from my address 171717... which I have had control of since about 2015. If I can't provide it, I might have been hacked.
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September 27, 2015, 04:32:09 PM
 #29

Hi forum,

I see alot of scammers and ponzi scammers on this forum. I think we need a new staff rank, scam buster. It is just as a normal member, but this user can give "ban point" scammers with proof. If the scammer has 2 or more "ban points" than the scammer is getting IP banned.

Lol yeah there must be that kinda thing.... Scammers should have red coins depending on how much they scammed.... There are still some users who still deals woth the scammers... Even after checking the red trust they do that Sad

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September 27, 2015, 05:54:30 PM
 #30

I think everyone who have scammed has received negative trust rating from the victim itself and from Default Trust member who are scam bisting Smiley

You mis-interpreted what I said. Not everyone has negative trust that is due to scamming.

Yes that idea is like my 2 ideas combined. Ban points = Units of Evil and both have it connected to your IP address. But then we have problems with proxy/vpn...

No, your idea is still a bad idea, for the reasons I stated earlier. I don't think giving that much power to normal people is a good idea.
Noooo, not all people get that ability, only the mods on the forum or DT people!
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September 27, 2015, 06:04:41 PM
 #31

this thread is just going around in a circle...

for some reason OP can't understand one simple phrase: scams are not moderated
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September 27, 2015, 06:12:51 PM
 #32

this thread is just going around in a circle...

for some reason OP can't understand one simple phrase: scams are not moderated
Yes I know it now. But some things can be done about it, like points to IP when someone has scammed and it dependance om how big scam is, the user get ban points. When reaching limit the user can not create alt accounts anymore. So no accounts are banned, but just IP van.
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September 27, 2015, 06:23:11 PM
 #33

this thread is just going around in a circle...

for some reason OP can't understand one simple phrase: scams are not moderated
Yes I know it now. But some things can be done about it, like points to IP when someone has scammed and it dependance om how big scam is, the user get ban points. When reaching limit the user can not create alt accounts anymore. So no accounts are banned, but just IP van.

two things.
if these points are added manually, some "enforcers" who personally got scammed will be strongly biased on their opinion.
if these points are added automatically, the ones who get a negative feedback just because of some disagreement will also get their IP banned.

also you say it's just an IP ban and not an account ban. but like I said on the other thread; most scammers, at least the ones who planned to scam from the beginning because their first try was succesful, use tor or VPN.
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September 27, 2015, 06:28:57 PM
 #34

this thread is just going around in a circle...

for some reason OP can't understand one simple phrase: scams are not moderated
Yes I know it now. But some things can be done about it, like points to IP when someone has scammed and it dependance om how big scam is, the user get ban points. When reaching limit the user can not create alt accounts anymore. So no accounts are banned, but just IP van.

two things.
if these points are added manually, some "enforcers" who personally got scammed will be strongly biased on their opinion.
if these points are added automatically, the ones who get a negative feedback just because of some disagreement will also get their IP banned.

also you say it's just an IP ban and not an account ban. but like I said on the other thread; most scammers, at least the ones who planned to scam from the beginning because their first try was succesful, use tor or VPN.
Yes, that should be disabled somehow, I do not know if that is possible to do.
Vpn & tor is the issue what comes with this..
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September 27, 2015, 06:32:36 PM
 #35

I don't think that a new rank for scammers can be a good solution, because they can post anytime if they aren't banned. We have to wait and think twice before investing in some ponzi systems here or there, and before lending BTC to nrewbies,for example, without collateral or escrow.
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September 27, 2015, 08:29:48 PM
 #36

I think everyone who have scammed has received negative trust rating from the victim itself and from Default Trust member who are scam bisting Smiley

You mis-interpreted what I said. Not everyone has negative trust that is due to scamming.

Yes that idea is like my 2 ideas combined. Ban points = Units of Evil and both have it connected to your IP address. But then we have problems with proxy/vpn...

No, your idea is still a bad idea, for the reasons I stated earlier. I don't think giving that much power to normal people is a good idea.
I do think it is a bad idea myself. People need to understand than IP bans are not the answer to scams, majority of people does not even have one IP.
In addition you can easy use proxy, vpn, tor or other networks to access forum. The only answer is to be safe than sorry and use escrow.


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September 27, 2015, 08:37:12 PM
 #37

Only people are banned if there is valid proof, i dont see that this idea is abuseable.
Can you explain to me in what way it is abuseable? If u choose persons from DT, what is wrong?

Way too much work for the mods, way too easy to make frivolous claims. People from DT are also not necessarily good choices for this role. The role also just seems like it wouldn't be a good fit for this forum, in my opinion.

Either way, scams are unmoderated for more reasons than the mod workload it'd create. That's why the trust system exists.
Yes i see that, trust system is builded to prevent another scam from the same user. But the user can easily create another account withtout other people knowing he was a scammer with an other account. So mayby if someone craetes an account and scams someone, and create another account then it should give a warning:"this is a scammers alt account!!!". U can easily do this by IP tracking.

Is not that hard to not get scammed, just use escrow for any deal and you will be 99% safe unless the escrow himself turns a scammer but that does not happen too often, never exchange big amounts of money at once and you will be safe.
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September 27, 2015, 08:43:28 PM
 #38

Hi forum,

I see alot of scammers and ponzi scammers on this forum. I think we need a new staff rank, scam buster.

No, we don't. Scams are already unmoderated. There's also no need for another staff rank, and giving regular members this rank and the ability to start banning people is really dangerous.

It is just as a normal member, but this user can give "ban point" scammers with proof. If the scammer has 2 or more "ban points" than the scammer is getting IP banned.

That's a bad idea. Way too abusable, even if scams were moderated. And what if the community temporarily thinks someone is a scammer?
Only people are banned if there is valid proof, i dont see that this idea is abuseable.
Can you explain to me in what way it is abuseable? If u choose persons from DT, what is wrong?

I'm not sure why you think abuse will be impossible simply by choosing someone from DT.
Anyone who has been here long enough has seen multiple cases of DT "abuse".

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September 27, 2015, 08:49:15 PM
 #39

Only people are banned if there is valid proof, i dont see that this idea is abuseable.
Can you explain to me in what way it is abuseable? If u choose persons from DT, what is wrong?

Way too much work for the mods, way too easy to make frivolous claims. People from DT are also not necessarily good choices for this role. The role also just seems like it wouldn't be a good fit for this forum, in my opinion.

Either way, scams are unmoderated for more reasons than the mod workload it'd create. That's why the trust system exists.
Yes i see that, trust system is builded to prevent another scam from the same user. But the user can easily create another account withtout other people knowing he was a scammer with an other account. So mayby if someone craetes an account and scams someone, and create another account then it should give a warning:"this is a scammers alt account!!!". U can easily do this by IP tracking.

Is not that hard to not get scammed, just use escrow for any deal and you will be 99% safe unless the escrow himself turns a scammer but that does not happen too often, never exchange big amounts of money at once and you will be safe.
What if the person you are trading with is an escrow himself? Should you still use escrow?

If "escrow" is what is going to protect you from getting scammed then you might as well give your money away Cheesy

Scams are not moderated and this is a bad idea. I like the response of KWH the best Smiley
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September 27, 2015, 09:43:21 PM
 #40

Only people are banned if there is valid proof, i dont see that this idea is abuseable.
Can you explain to me in what way it is abuseable? If u choose persons from DT, what is wrong?

Way too much work for the mods, way too easy to make frivolous claims. People from DT are also not necessarily good choices for this role. The role also just seems like it wouldn't be a good fit for this forum, in my opinion.

Either way, scams are unmoderated for more reasons than the mod workload it'd create. That's why the trust system exists.
Yes i see that, trust system is builded to prevent another scam from the same user. But the user can easily create another account withtout other people knowing he was a scammer with an other account. So mayby if someone craetes an account and scams someone, and create another account then it should give a warning:"this is a scammers alt account!!!". U can easily do this by IP tracking.

Is not that hard to not get scammed, just use escrow for any deal and you will be 99% safe unless the escrow himself turns a scammer but that does not happen too often, never exchange big amounts of money at once and you will be safe.
What if the person you are trading with is an escrow himself? Should you still use escrow?

If "escrow" is what is going to protect you from getting scammed then you might as well give your money away Cheesy

Scams are not moderated and this is a bad idea. I like the response of KWH the best Smiley

It's an additional layer of security. Nothing is 100% secure.
Alarms, fences, locks don't stop burglars from stealing, it makes it harder.
And yes, you should still use escrow.

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September 28, 2015, 01:55:48 PM
 #41

when you see that a site is scam,then it is already to late.
If you say it before you see it,then it is to soon (lol)

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