ACTUAL Butterfly Labs PCB pics!

[greyhawk]

Is it just me or does the size of this hand look funky?

Most likely the owner of the hand is fat.

[1714020214]

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[1714020214]

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[1714020214]

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[Mobius]

Is it just me or does the size of this hand look funky?

Most likely the owner of the hand is fat.

Where is the NEW custom heatsink?

[michaelmclees]

That's not the ASIC.

[crazyates]

Those dinky little heatsinks were originally only supposed to dissipate 20 Watts, but had to be upgraded to handle the actual heat output of 80 Watts. Now, they're actually designing a proper heatsink for the 60Watts they know the Single will draw. Pics from http://bitcoinmagazine.net/bfl-confirms-65nm-process-for-sc-lineup/ :




I can see why they say that heat will no longer be an issue for these.

[bitcoindaddy]

I'm surprised that BFL didn't get better efficiency than they did. Just going from 90nm to 65nm should double efficiency, right? Then where's the additional advantage of using the full custom approach? I'm comparing with the current power estimate of the bASIC.

It's not just the fabrication process size that matters. The implementation of the hardware is a huge factor.

Yep, so why do we only see the 2x "die shrink" advantage in these power estimates and nothing else? Where's the additional efficiency gain of going full custom? Shouldn't the BFL be 3x or 4x more efficient, not just 2x?

And I'm aware Inaba has already answered this by saying Tom's numbers are unrealistic. But I don't think either one has a working prototype, so we'll just have to wait and see.

Maybe they're "holding back" and will surprise us with better "real" numbers when the product ships.

Checkout this post from BFL which seems to support my position:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showwiki.php?title=FAQ:Bitforce+SC+ASIC+Product+Line

"While our numbers are very good, we are being conservative with our announce power figures and the likely power consumption will be even less."

[PuertoLibre]

Reference: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/251-More-Jalapeno-Pictures-amp-Shipping-Update/page18

Eryngi (like Bogart) asks the right questions.

It seems to me like it is what eryngi points out (IMO), that there is possibly a different reason for leaving customers in the dark as to what is potentially being played out.

Indeed, it is very smart of eryngi to pull out. It would be dumb if he did stay despite strong indicators as to what the game may be behind the scenes. I think Sharky does not really understand (at all) what eryngi is going on about. If he did, he would be more concerned at the possibilities.

There are two kinds of customers in this case, those who are worried but their confidence is based on promises. Then there are those who understand what the subtle hints indicate and are worried enough to jump ship.

In this case, eryngi has decided that jumping ship was appropriate considering what all the indicators led him to believe. (Think of it like the Titanic just after it hits the iceberg) He has cashed out based on that information (and apparent confirmations/denials) of a situation. There are other people whom don't know what any of it means or don't know any better and will stay until it is very evident there are problems. (The Titanic begins to tilt and enters the waters length wise?)

The company has stated that refunds are currently a trickle, and they are honoring those whom wish to jump ship early. Though they said if it becomes an administration issue with too many refunds they will close that door. They also state that they have not used any pre-order funds. So that means every penny is safe. (Why accept pre-orders though if you can sell the product once it is ready for shipment if that is the case?Why not a standard pre-order down payment if you only wished to know how the market demand was for your product?)

Anyway, at the first signs of ice on deck, jump ship. Never believe that there are enough lifeboats or that this ship cannot sink. That is my personal opinion.

I just wonder if they will allow eryngi words to persist and sink in for others after eryngi's  refund? I am inclined to believe they will wipe it out.

[scrybe]

Why not a standard pre-order down payment if you only wished to know how the market demand was for your product?

This one stuck out for me. Given the BitCoin community they guaranteed their orders in a way that a deposit would not have done. At the very least they would be having issues with all the folks planning on completing their purchases with Pirate backed income.

It's also a good thing for the shipping and cashflow, no questions as to when they get access to the money for each unit (when they ship), and there is no drama about the guy who SHOULD have been in the first group but could not complete the purchase in time.

Honestly all the solutions are messy, but I think theirs is about the least complicated.

[PuertoLibre]

Why not a standard pre-order down payment if you only wished to know how the market demand was for your product?

This one stuck out for me. Given the BitCoin community they guaranteed their orders in a way that a deposit would not have done. At the very least they would be having issues with all the folks planning on completing their purchases with Pirate backed income.

It's also a good thing for the shipping and cashflow, no questions as to when they get access to the money for each unit (when they ship), and there is no drama about the guy who SHOULD have been in the first group but could not complete the purchase in time.

Honestly all the solutions are messy, but I think theirs is about the least complicated.

Question:

If you are paid in BTC (virtual funds), are any consumer protection laws even applicable for a cryptocurrency?

I know it is a question out of left field, and I am not implying anything, but we should start a thread to discuss what can be enforced if you use a cryptocurrency.

[punin]

(Why accept pre-orders though if you can sell the product once it is ready for shipment if that is the case?Why not a standard pre-order down payment if you only wished to know how the market demand was for your product?)

Your questions are right to the point. Why accept preorders with full up-front payment if you're not in need of capital to produce whatever you're producing?

They also state that they have not used any pre-order funds. So that means every penny is safe.

BFL never answered if this meant the first month of preorders or all of them. So there is a possibility not every penny is safe. After all, if they go belly-up, it's not their problem anymore. They tried and they failed.

I'm pretty sure that the costs associated with 65nm ASIC production could not be covered by their profits alone. They claim they received VC capital, but no additional information has been provided on this matter.

Edit: I want to point out that none of the ASIC manufacturers have shown a prototype, and all have taken full up-front payment for preorders. The only company that has been open about their progress is BlockErupter(Asicminer), but they've run aground with GLBSE now. Also, I'm not aware what is happening on the Avalon mailing list, but looking at Ngzhang's track-record, I'd be amazed if they were not open regarding their progress as well as the risks associated.

I hoped this whole ASIC transition would've been completely crowd-funded and designed as an open project, that would've made all of us miners share/stakeholders. I'm afraid we've become like the people that rushed to Klondike over a century ago and lost all of their money due to their greed.

Like in my country right now, our precious Lapland is being raped by greedy mining companies spilling uranium and nickel into our pure lakes. Corrupt officials stand passive and watch as our national heritage is ruined for a fistful of dollars. Sad times.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

(Why accept pre-orders though if you can sell the product once it is ready for shipment if that is the case?Why not a standard pre-order down payment if you only wished to know how the market demand was for your product?)

Your questions are right to the point. Why accept preorders with full up-front payment if you're not in need of capital to produce whatever you're producing?

They also state that they have not used any pre-order funds. So that means every penny is safe.

BFL never answered if this meant the first month of preorders or all of them. So there is a possibility not every penny is safe. After all, if they go belly-up, it's not their problem anymore. They tried and they failed.

I'm pretty sure that the costs associated with 65nm ASIC production could not be covered by their profits alone. They claim they received VC capital, but no additional information has been provided on this matter.

In Sandwich, IL, when a business mysteriously burns down while struggling financially, the cause is referred to as Albanian lightning.

[Korbman]

Question:

If you are paid in BTC (virtual funds), are any consumer protection laws even applicable for a cryptocurrency?

I know it is a question out of left field, and I am not implying anything, but we should start a thread to discuss what can be enforced if you use a cryptocurrency.

The payments to BFL in Bitcoins are automatically converted to USD through BitPay. BFL never sees a Bitcoin.

That said, the consumer protection laws would still apply since you're effectively paying in USD.

[scrybe]

They also state that they have not used any pre-order funds. So that means every penny is safe.

BFL never answered if this meant the first month of preorders or all of them. So there is a possibility not every penny is safe. After all, if they go belly-up, it's not their problem anymore. They tried and they failed.

What part of ANY was confusing here? They have stated this multiple times even if they have not answered the exact post you are looking for.

Like it or not, this is not a community project, it is a for-profit enterprise. As part of that equation you keep certain information to yourself to avoid giving the competition information that they can use to get an advantage on you. In the case of BFL many of the things that have been asked for get into that proprietary realm.

They have answered, they have INVESTORS that covered the initial costs, their investors don't get paid back if BFL fails. Legally that money is not theirs until they ship the product. If they went bust without shipping anything all the investors will be on the hook to refund all of us from a legal perspective.

If you have ever operated a business on a line of credit or flooring agreement you are already very familiar with these rules, because exceeding your cashflow can allow a company to go under because it is TO SUCCESSFUL for it's resources.

Once you get past a basic small business, it becomes a lot more about the reliable and predictable flow of money through the organization (paying rent, salaries, buying new materials, etc) than just making a profit in a single tactical action. BFL has shown by their actions that they are interested in the long game (at least a year or 2, likely more) and are playing by business rules, this obviously is not a scam in a garage so we need to apply the relevant standard.

bASIC and Avalon are a lot more like the hobbist type project with one or 2 critical folks doing everything, but I think BFL has graduated from that category into a real business. This is AWESOME news in my book, we need more businesses using Bitcoin and operating like businesses rather than cowboys, hopefully BFL will be an anchor for others. This is because (beyond a small scale) established business don't want to work with an individual, they want to work with another established business that they can rely on.

[scrybe]

Question:

If you are paid in BTC (virtual funds), are any consumer protection laws even applicable for a cryptocurrency?

I know it is a question out of left field, and I am not implying anything, but we should start a thread to discuss what can be enforced if you use a cryptocurrency.

The payments to BFL in Bitcoins are automatically converted to USD through BitPay. BFL never sees a Bitcoin.

That said, the consumer protection laws would still apply since you're effectively paying in USD.

+1

You paid them for something, and they acknowledged payment. It does not matter if the purchase was made with gold or Rare Purple Lego's (assuming both parties agree on the exchange rate), they are obligated to deliver or return you the same value in exchange. This does mean that the spot-rate will be used if you insist in payment in Rare Purple Lego's, so you won't get the same number, but they will be worth the same value when you get them.

Consumer protection (generally, not CC specific unless CC was used, etc.) applies, this is similar to why coupons have a "no cash value" clause.

[PuertoLibre]

They also state that they have not used any pre-order funds. So that means every penny is safe.

BFL never answered if this meant the first month of preorders or all of them. So there is a possibility not every penny is safe. After all, if they go belly-up, it's not their problem anymore. They tried and they failed.

What part of ANY was confusing here? They have stated this multiple times even if they have not answered the exact post you are looking for.

Like it or not, this is not a community project, it is a for-profit enterprise. As part of that equation you keep certain information to yourself to avoid giving the competition information that they can use to get an advantage on you. In the case of BFL many of the things that have been asked for get into that proprietary realm.

They have answered, they have INVESTORS that covered the initial costs, their investors don't get paid back if BFL fails. Legally that money is not theirs until they ship the product. If they went bust without shipping anything all the investors will be on the hook to refund all of us from a legal perspective.

If you have ever operated a business on a line of credit or flooring agreement you are already very familiar with these rules, because exceeding your cashflow can allow a company to go under because it is TO SUCCESSFUL for it's resources.

Once you get past a basic small business, it becomes a lot more about the reliable and predictable flow of money through the organization (paying rent, salaries, buying new materials, etc) than just making a profit in a single tactical action. BFL has shown by their actions that they are interested in the long game (at least a year or 2, likely more) and are playing by business rules, this obviously is not a scam in a garage so we need to apply the relevant standard.

bASIC and Avalon are a lot more like the hobbist type project with one or 2 critical folks doing everything, but I think BFL has graduated from that category into a real business. This is AWESOME news in my book, we need more businesses using Bitcoin and operating like businesses rather than cowboys, hopefully BFL will be an anchor for others. This is because (beyond a small scale) established business don't want to work with an individual, they want to work with another established business that they can rely on.

?
bASIC and Avalon also employ third parties for designs as does BFL. So it is not a 1 or 2 person operation. The shipping side of each company IS a different story between the three companies. These three are not of the same size.

Avalon has gone on record to state that they don't want to ship huge lots like BFL in their first run. I forget exactly what the reasoning was.

bASIC's Tom has stated that he doesn't have the manpower but will hire IT temps to fill in as necessary.

But I totally agree, when there are alot of mouths to feed with cash, there will always be problems with cash flow if a company makes the wrong decisions.

[scrybe]

bASIC and Avalon also employ third parties for designs as does BFL. So it is not a 1 or 2 person operation. The shipping side of each company IS a different story between the three companies. These three are not of the same size.

Avalon has gone on record to state that they don't want to ship huge lots like BFL in their first run. I forget exactly what the reasoning was.

bASIC's Tom has stated that he doesn't have the manpower but will hire IT temps to fill in as necessary.

But I totally agree, when there are alot of mouths to feed with cash, there will always be problems with cash flow if a company makes the wrong decisions.

It Tom gets hit by a bus, or ninja assassins take out Team Avalon, then it is game over. If BFL_Josh dies, we get to make jokes and then bug the company for our stuff. (No offense Josh, you would be missed by some at least!)

BIG difference. Even with outsourcing the risks around doing business with individuals and tiny groups is higher than when dealing with larger groups. Larger groups are more likely to continue in the face of adversity, which is one of the reasons for the rise of the corporation over the last 500 years. This is actually the case where the "corporate person-hood" thing we are dealing with is needed, that corporate person is obligated to you, no matter who owns/operates the corporation. (Free speech through unlimited campaign donations on the other hand seems to be a misapplication of the Bill of Rights)

[PuertoLibre]

By the way, the first chip run for BFL is allegedly 20,000 chips.

20,000 ASIC chips can make

20k / 8 = 2,500 Single SC chips.
20k / ? = ?,??? Little SC chips.
20k / 1 = 20,000 Jalapenos.
20k / 200 = 100 Mini-rigs.

Those are the totals if a batch of 20,000 are divided above as if the batch were used exclusively for one type.

Question: How does one go about fulfilling 12,000 order ID's? Lets assume there are less than 6,000 valid orders. (no clue how many are multiple units in each order...so lets assume it makes up to 6,000 assorted units. Some will order several units while others only 1 unit.)

How does one go about fulfilling that many orders with only 20k ASIC chips? Anyone know how many chips will go into each little single SC?

[PuertoLibre]

bASIC and Avalon also employ third parties for designs as does BFL. So it is not a 1 or 2 person operation. The shipping side of each company IS a different story between the three companies. These three are not of the same size.

Avalon has gone on record to state that they don't want to ship huge lots like BFL in their first run. I forget exactly what the reasoning was.

bASIC's Tom has stated that he doesn't have the manpower but will hire IT temps to fill in as necessary.

But I totally agree, when there are alot of mouths to feed with cash, there will always be problems with cash flow if a company makes the wrong decisions.

It Tom gets hit by a bus, or ninja assassins take out Team Avalon, then it is game over. If BFL_Josh dies, we get to make jokes and then bug the company for our stuff. (No offense Josh, you would be missed by some at least!)

Well, You have a point I cannot refute LOL....you got me!

Edit: Note to self, ask Tom if he has life insurance.
Edit1: Note to self: Ask Team Avalon if they have any ongoing problems with Ninjas from overseas.

BIG difference. Even with outsourcing the risks around doing business with individuals and tiny groups is higher than when dealing with larger groups. Larger groups are more likely to continue in the face of adversity, which is one of the reasons for the rise of the corporation over the last 500 years. This is actually the case where the "corporate person-hood" thing we are dealing with is needed, that corporate person is obligated to you, no matter who owns/operates the corporation. (Free speech through unlimited campaign donations on the other hand seems to be a misapplication of the Bill of Rights)

[SgtSpike]

By the way, the first chip run for BFL is allegedly 20,000 chips.

20,000 ASIC chips can make

20k / 8 = 2,500 Single SC chips.
20k / ? = ?,??? Little SC chips.
20k / 1 = 20,000 Jalapenos.
20k / 200 = 100 Mini-rigs.

Those are the totals if a batch of 20,000 are divided above as if the batch were used exclusively for one type.

Question: How does one go about fulfilling 12,000 order ID's? Lets assume there are less than 6,000 valid orders. (no clue how many are multiple units in each order...so lets assume it makes up to 6,000 assorted units. Some will order several units while others only 1 unit.)

How does one go about fulfilling that many orders with only 20k ASIC chips? Anyone know how many chips will go into each little single SC?

The Little SC will be 4 chips (logically, since each chip produces 7.5GH/s, and they will be 30GH/s units).

But why are you asking this question?  Josh already stated that the 20k chips was more than enough to fulfill all current preorders (as of a couple of weeks ago)... so the existing orders are some combination of the above units, but not enough to use up 20k chips.

[Korbman]

Josh already stated that the 20k chips was more than enough to fulfill all current preorders (as of a couple of weeks ago)... so the existing orders are some combination of the above units, but not enough to use up 20k chips.

Which is awesome news since it puts us right on track to meet my predictions from my October Analysis

[PuertoLibre]

By the way, the first chip run for BFL is allegedly 20,000 chips.

20,000 ASIC chips can make

20k / 8 = 2,500 Single SC chips.
20k / ? = ?,??? Little SC chips.
20k / 1 = 20,000 Jalapenos.
20k / 200 = 100 Mini-rigs.

Those are the totals if a batch of 20,000 are divided above as if the batch were used exclusively for one type.

Question: How does one go about fulfilling 12,000 order ID's? Lets assume there are less than 6,000 valid orders. (no clue how many are multiple units in each order...so lets assume it makes up to 6,000 assorted units. Some will order several units while others only 1 unit.)

How does one go about fulfilling that many orders with only 20k ASIC chips? Anyone know how many chips will go into each little single SC?

The Little SC will be 4 chips (logically, since each chip produces 7.5GH/s, and they will be 30GH/s units).

But why are you asking this question?  Josh already stated that the 20k chips was more than enough to fulfill all current preorders (as of a couple of weeks ago)... so the existing orders are some combination of the above units, but not enough to use up 20k chips.

I ask, because it means that out of the 12,000 electronic orders...very few that are actually valid. I thought they were well into the 6,000 range. But looking over different combos, I find it hard to believe that there are many valid orders. I expected many mini-rigs to be sold since customer service stated most of their customers were supposedly not front bitcointalk.org or any other forums. (?)