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Author Topic: Why ASIC's Should Not Be The Future Of Crypto Currencies  (Read 10513 times)
DoomDumas
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October 21, 2012, 01:37:40 AM
 #21

I read someone who push for litecoin, sorry, im all-in-BTC for now...  But, I must say, nice try, even good thinking behind !

The argument that ASIC are availlable from only few companies, I dont think it's a problem, as those companies exist for profit in $, then they are doing anything they can to sell a maximum of unit, for profit.  That's the only reason why those companies are building/selling ASIC : Profit.

As there exist few manufacturer, they can't control the price as they are competing each other, not that I think that competition is good, I'm more willing to accept the idea that cooperation is better in every way, but for now, competition it what drives the market !  (Except if they all collude togheter, price of unit is in competition, free market = the customer will buy what is best price/value for them.)

About investment : Each individual is free to invest or not, as they want/can.  Small power asic are availlable for those who dont have too much money/btc.  IMO, the game is still the same, low fund, small rig..  High fund, big mining rig.  There can be a small hurde, if the protocol needs a change that will disable actual asic design, total network power will go down drasticaly.  Could be a return to mass GPU mining for w hile.  But in case of a drastic protocol change that disable actual asic desing, I'm pretty sure that profit motivated companies will sell new asic version, in a matter of week/month, even before the update if possible.

Anyone with low or no power cost will be able to continue mining with GPU, I will, even with a medium-low power cost.

Something you seems to have forgot in you post, I may say a must for Bitcoin to go asic mining is SECURITY.  As it is possible to create ASIC to mine BTC, the community HAVE TO go asic, to protect against a malicious individual/entity that could build asic to 51% attack the network !  Bitcoin will be much more safe, and trustable for the long run with a much bigger hash powered network.

Also, if BTC became illegal, and those companies with logs of clients who bought asic, this change nothing, if becoming illegal, it will be the decision of any miner to conitnue to mine or turn rigs off..

My impression is that you are all-in for LTC and can't deal with the fact that BTC is in the way to become a grown-up, a real big and robust entity !

BTC are growing, soon will no more be in it's infancy.. maybe mass adoption within 5-8 years Cheesy

was my 2 satoshi


sorry for bad english, even if it sounds good to me Wink
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October 21, 2012, 01:43:59 AM
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OP just wasted bitcointalk.org SQL database space with pointless rambling.


LOL, nice quote !
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October 21, 2012, 01:54:47 AM
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October 21, 2012, 02:02:33 AM
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Added to ignore list.
No change, still showing 5-8 ignores. Your faggotry action was irrelevant!

to OP: people in thread confirmed that ASIC increase in difficulty will actually secure Bitcoin network even more against >50% attack.

If protocol is changed in a manner that renders both ASIC and current implementation incompatible, this will undermine peoples trust in Bitcoin as a whole. This is why I never will trust any scamcoins that change basic protocol rules even once.

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October 21, 2012, 03:10:06 AM
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OP is pissed because he bought a GPU farm few months ago. Sorry, it's part of the game.

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October 21, 2012, 03:48:04 AM
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Quote
Everything has some kind of drawback and availability is definitely one for ASIC.
Q:What green aliens with plasma guns and BFL ASIC's have in common?
A:They are not here and likely will not be in foreseeable future!
Quote
it is easier to get a video card than a specialty Bitcoin miner and that will shift the balance of power.
It is easier to get second hand Core2Duo than high-end ATI video card. The same with GPU vs ASIC. Change algo? Shift of mined bitcoins income? Almost certainly yes, the shift occurs slowly all the time because of numerous factors. Shift in income does not mean a direct shift in balance of power. The ASIC owners still are a miners and early adopters who want Bitcoin to be a sucess. If we all unanimously decide not to use a ASIC then someone who really might Bitcoin to fail can pull off a >50% attack using the ASIC's. And he will need far less ASIC's to do that than if more ASIC's will be in hands of honest miners.
Quote
OP is pissed because he bought a GPU farm few months ago. Sorry, it's part of the game.
High income is not without risk. Some people here purchased high-end CPU's complete with MoBo's and memories only for GPU mining to make CPU mining useless like voting parliament. They also told that GPU mining is ruining ideas of Bitcoin. Search this forum for about year and a half ago!

Better lose part of money in bad purchase than have your computer getting hacked. And having leaked naked pictures with the love of your life spreading legs for whole internet.

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October 21, 2012, 05:01:11 AM
 #27

Why GPU's Should Not Be The Future Of Crypto Currencies


GPU's are not a natural technological generation leap like going from paper to CPU was. GPU's & mining software are simply specialized processing units made specifically for Bitcoin. Which i do not beleive is following the original intentions of Satoshi, for many reasons.

Moving from paper to CPU mining will not be the same as going from CPU to GPU mining. The reason here is because paper and CPU's have decentralized distribution. They are mass produced by huge companies  giving you the option to buy their products in any city, no matter where you live! This allows us to be in control of when and where we get our mining hardware, and to a certain degree, at what cost. (Which helps the decentralization process). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralization

While on the other hand, CPU's are mass produced, supply is controlled, price is controlled, they are in limited quantity, can only be bought from a few companies/sources, that in reality nobody even knows for sure they can trust. So what will happen is all the miners in the world will be forced to rely on those few companies for CPU's. And we will be subject to their pricing. They will also control the supply of the mining rigs, which can have an effect on the bitcoin economy that is similar to the effect that the U.S Federal Reserve and banks have on the money supply. I'm not talking about the amount of money/BTC, but when it is available/mineable to the miners. This allows CPU manufacturers to be in control of when and where we get our mining hardware. (All this hurts the decentralization process)

People will have to rely on the small quantities that these companies produce, which causes people to have wait for their hardware, which in the end causes people to potentially lose money. This is exactly what is happening right now. Many people are waiting to see what happens with GPU's, so that they can start buying mining  hardware again. So, basically if GPU didn't exist people would continue to buy CPUs as i type this, which would have meant more profit for those people now and in the future, which would have meant more money in those peoples pockets. This is where the 'Federal Reserve effect' comes in, because now mining hardware companies can control when people buy/receive their hardware, plus control when people get more or less profit through controlling the mining hardware supply. Also, buying GPU's from a few small companies means whenever those companies come out with a new model, this process will start all over again. More lost money, more time lost waiting for release/shipping.

Another downfall of GPU, is the fact that GPU's will make everyone have to 'restart from scratch' buying mining hardware all over again, when most people already  have their mining hardware in the form of CPUs, and it is already paid off. Now you will have to sell all your CPUs, then have to buy $1000's of dollars of GPU's just to be able to keep up with all the other players with the increasing difficulty. After that, you will have to wait all over again to get your return on  your investment! Which could take half a year or more, once difficulty adjusts, which should just take about a month or so.

Once GPUs come out, the difficulty will adjust accordingly. Which will just cause everyone to make the same amount of money as they were before GPU's. So the question is, is it necessary for us to go through all of what i mentioned above, to just end up making the same amount of money as you were before with GPU's, just a month or so later, with GPU's?

Because of the above mentioned costs, plus the added cost of GPU'S, this can hinder the widespread global adoption of Bitcoin just because of the sheer expense. This is especially true for people in other smaller, less wealthy countries. It is much easier to obtain a used CPUs for those people. People that could be helping to build security and decentralization for Bitcoin!

GPU's threaten to ruin any anonymity that Bitcoin has left. This is by potentially making it easier to track who is buying the mining rigs through the few small companies that sell the GPU's. Which could potentially be bad if Bitcoin ever became illegal!

There are also many more smaller disadvantages of moving towards GPU that are of less importance.

So now it comes to the advantages of GPU. That's where everything boils down to in the end. The problem is there are not enough advantages to using GPU, for them to outweigh the disadvantages it brings to the table! In my opinion, network security and lowered power consumption cannot make up for the potential problems that it brings. This is an economy. This is not about power consumption! It will all come down to economics in the end. And that is what I'm talking about. And that is the infostructure that Satoshi built Bitcoin on!

The  Bitcoin developers, and the Crypto Community in general needs the recognize GPU's as a threat, and we should all do something to stop this from happening. I do not think that Satoshi would think the way these GPU's are to be distributed would be good for the Bitcoin economy in general.  There are a few things we can do to combat this, like changing the algorithm to prevent the usage of GPU's. Or, we could all switch to another crypto currency that that uses a different algorithm that is resistant to GPU's, like Litecoin, so that we can save Bitcoin and our crypto-independence!

By Switching To Another Bitcoin Algorithm, Or By Using Litecoin We Can Save Our Crypto-Independence!

The only options we have now is to change the Bitcoin algorithm, or for everyone to switch to another GPU proof crypto currency. The ideal situation would be for the Bitcoin developers to change the algorithm, but that does not seem to be what they plan to do. So that's where Litecoin comes in. While Litecoin is not GPU proof, it is GPU resistant. It runs on an algorithm called scrypt that is highly memory intensive, which makes it much harder to produce a GPU for Litecoin. Even if a company would find a way to produce a GPU for it, it would take at least a year to design, produce and ship them. So it would be our 'safe heaven' from GPU, saving us from the many disadvantages and negative effects that GPU threatens to bring to Bitcoin and the cryptocurrency world. At the very least, it would be buying us more time to work on something to prevent mining hardware companies from taking over our crypto currencies. People will be able to continue to GPU mine, continue to profit, once again allowing us to be in control of when/where we buy our mining hardware, as well as, at what cost we buy it at. Allowing the control of the crypto world to stay in our hands, not the hands of greedy companies!

Jay1337

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October 21, 2012, 05:01:41 AM
 #28

Why FPGA's Should Not Be The Future Of Crypto Currencies

FPGA's are not a natural technological generation leap like going from CPU to GPU was. FPGA's are simply specialized processing units made specifically for Bitcoin. Which i do not beleive is following the original intentions of Satoshi, for many reasons.

Moving from GPU to FPGA mining will not be the same as going from CPU to GPU mining. The reason here is because CPU's and GPU's have decentralized distribution. They are mass produced by huge companies  giving you the option to buy their products in any city, no matter where you live! This allows us to be in control of when and where we get our mining hardware, and to a certain degree, at what cost. (Which helps the decentralization process). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralization

While on the other hand, FPGA's are mass produced, supply is controlled, price is controlled, they are in limited quantity, can only be bought from a few companies/sources, that in reality nobody even knows for sure they can trust. So what will happen is all the miners in the world will be forced to rely on those few companies for FPGA's. And we will be subject to their pricing. They will also control the supply of the mining rigs, which can have an effect on the bitcoin economy that is similar to the effect that the U.S Federal Reserve and banks have on the money supply. I'm not talking about the amount of money/BTC, but when it is available/mineable to the miners. This allows FPGA manufacturers to be in control of when and where we get our mining hardware. (All this hurts the decentralization process)

People will have to rely on the small quantities that these companies produce, which causes people to have wait for their hardware, which in the end causes people to potentially lose money. This is exactly what is happening right now. Many people are waiting to see what happens with FPGA's, so that they can start buying mining  hardware again. So, basically if FPGA didn't exist people would continue to buy GPUs as i type this, which would have meant more profit for those people now and in the future, which would have meant more money in those peoples pockets. This is where the 'Federal Reserve effect' comes in, because now mining hardware companies can control when people buy/receive their hardware, plus control when people get more or less profit through controlling the mining hardware supply. Also, buying FPGA's from a few small companies means whenever those companies come out with a new model, this process will start all over again. More lost money, more time lost waiting for release/shipping.

Another downfall of FPGA, is the fact that FPGA's will make everyone have to 'restart from scratch' buying mining hardware all over again, when most people already  have their mining hardware in the form of GPUs, and it is already paid off. Now you will have to sell all your GPUs, then have to buy $1000's of dollars of FPGA's just to be able to keep up with all the other players with the increasing difficulty. After that, you will have to wait all over again to get your return on  your investment! Which could take half a year or more, once difficulty adjusts, which should just take about a month or so.

Once FPGAs come out, the difficulty will adjust accordingly. Which will just cause everyone to make the same amount of money as they were before FPGA's. So the question is, is it necessary for us to go through all of what i mentioned above, to just end up making the same amount of money as you were before with GPU's, just a month or so later, with FPGA's?

Because of the above mentioned costs, plus the added cost of FPGA'S, this can hinder the widespread global adoption of Bitcoin just because of the sheer expense. This is especially true for people in other smaller, less wealthy countries. It is much easier to obtain a used GPU for those people. People that could be helping to build security and decentralization for Bitcoin!

FPGA's threaten to ruin any anonymity that Bitcoin has left. This is by potentially making it easier to track who is buying the mining rigs through the few small companies that sell the FPGA's. Which could potentially be bad if Bitcoin ever became illegal!

There are also many more smaller disadvantages of moving towards FPGA that are of less importance.

So now it comes to the advantages of FPGA. That's where everything boils down to in the end. The problem is there are not enough advantages to using FPGA, for them to outweigh the disadvantages it brings to the table! In my opinion, network security and lowered power consumption cannot make up for the potential problems that it brings. This is an economy. This is not about power consumption! It will all come down to economics in the end. And that is what I'm talking about. And that is the infostructure that Satoshi built Bitcoin on!

The  Bitcoin developers, and the Crypto Community in general needs the recognize FPGA's as a threat, and we should all do something to stop this from happening. I do not think that Satoshi would think the way these FPGA's are to be distributed would be good for the Bitcoin economy in general.  There are a few things we can do to combat this, like changing the algorithm to prevent the usage of FPGA's. Or, we could all switch to another crypto currency that that uses a different algorithm that is resistant to FPGA's, like Litecoin, so that we can save Bitcoin and our crypto-independence!

By Switching To Another Bitcoin Algorithm, Or By Using Litecoin We Can Save Our Crypto-Independence!

The only options we have now is to change the Bitcoin algorithm, or for everyone to switch to another FPGA proof crypto currency. The ideal situation would be for the Bitcoin developers to change the algorithm, but that does not seem to be what they plan to do. So that's where Litecoin comes in. While Litecoin is not FPGA proof, it is FPGA resistant. It runs on an algorithm called scrypt that is highly memory intensive, which makes it much harder to produce a FPGA for Litecoin. Even if a company would find a way to produce a FPGA for it, it would take at least a year to design, produce and ship them. So it would be our 'safe heaven' from FPGA, saving us from the many disadvantages and negative effects that FPGA threatens to bring to Bitcoin and the cryptocurrency world. At the very least, it would be buying us more time to work on something to prevent mining hardware companies from taking over our crypto currencies. People will be able to continue to FPGA mine, continue to profit, once again allowing us to be in control of when/where we buy our mining hardware, as well as, at what cost we buy it at. Allowing the control of the crypto world to stay in our hands, not the hands of greedy companies!

Jay1337

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October 21, 2012, 05:04:26 AM
 #29

lol @ inaba.. nice
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October 21, 2012, 05:34:24 AM
 #30

Why CPU's Should Not Be The Future Of Crypto Currencies


CPU's are not a natural technological generation leap like going from rocks-and-seashells to pencil-and-paper was. CPU's are simply specialized processing units made specifically for Bitcoin. Which i do not beleive is following the original intentions of Satoshi, for many reasons.

Moving from pencil-and-paper to CPU mining will not be the same as going from rocks-and-seashells to pencil-and-paper mining. The reason here is because rocks-and-seashells's and pencil-and-paper's have decentralized distribution. They are mass produced by huge companies  giving you the option to buy their products in any city, no matter where you live! This allows us to be in control of when and where we get our mining hardware, and to a certain degree, at what cost. (Which helps the decentralization process). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralization

While on the other hand, CPU's are/will not be mass produced, supply is controlled, price is controlled, they are in limited quantity, can only be bought from a few companies/sources, that in reality nobody even knows for sure they can trust. So what will happen is all the miners in the world will be forced to rely on those few small companies for CPU's, as well as the small quantities that they produce. And we will be subject to their pricing. They will also control the supply of the mining rigs, which can have an effect on the bitcoin economy that is similar to the effect that the U.S Federal Reserve and banks have on the money supply. I'm not talking about the amount of money/BTC, but when it is available/mineable to the miners. This allows CPU  manufacturers to be in control of when and where we get our mining hardware. (All this hurts the decentralization process)

People will have to rely on the small quantities that these companies produce, which causes people to have wait for their hardware, which in the end causes people to potentially lose money. This is exactly what is happening right now. Many people are waiting to see what happens with CPU's, so that they can start buying mining  hardware again. So, basically if CPU didn't exist people would continue to pencils and papers as i type this, which would have meant more profit for those people now and in the future, which would have meant more money in those peoples pockets. This is where the 'Federal Reserve effect' comes in, because now mining hardware companies can control when people buy/receive their hardware, plus control when people get more or less profit through controlling the mining hardware supply. Also, buying CPU's from a few small companies means whenever those companies come out with a new model, this process will start all over again. More lost money, more time lost waiting for release/shipping.

Another downfall of CPU, is the fact that CPU's will make everyone have to 'restart from scratch' buying mining hardware all over again, when most people already  have their mining hardware in the form of pencils and papers, and it is already payed off. Now you will have to sell all your pencils and papers, then have to buy $1000's of dollars of CPU's just to be able to keep up with all the other players with the increasing difficulty. After that, you will have to wait all over again to get your return on  your investment! Which could take half a year or more, once difficulty adjusts, which should just take about a month or so.

Once CPU comes out, the difficulty will adjust accordingly. Which will just cause everyone to make the same amount of money as they were before CPU's. So the question is, is it necessary for us to go through all of what i mentioned above, to just end up making the same amount of money as you were before with pencil-and-paper's, just a month or so later, with CPU's?

Because of the above mentioned costs, plus the added cost of CPU'S, this can hinder the widespread global adoption of Bitcoin just because of the sheer expense. This is especially true for people in other smaller, less wealthy countries. It is much easier to obtain a used video card for those people. People that could be helping to build security and decentralization for Bitcoin!

CPU's threaten to ruin any anonymity that Bitcoin has left. This is by potentially making it easier to track who is buying the mining rigs through the few small companies that sell the CPU's. Which could potentially be bad if Bitcoin ever became illegal!

There are also many more smaller disadvantages of moving towards CPU that are of less importance.

So now it comes to the advantages of CPU. That's where everything boils down to in the end. The problem is there are not enough advantages to using CPU, for them to outweigh the disadvantages it brings to the table! In my opinion, network security and lowered power consumption cannot make up for the potential problems that it brings. This is an economy. This is not about power consumption! It will all come down to economics in the end. And that is what I'm talking about. And that is the infostructure that Satoshi built Bitcoin on!

The  Bitcoin developers, and the Crypto Community in general needs the recognize CPU's as a threat, and we should all do something to stop this from happening. I do not think that Satoshi would think the way these CPU's are to be distributed would be good for the Bitcoin economy in general.  There are a few things we can do to combat this, like changing the algorithm to prevent the usage of CPU's. Or, we could all switch to another crypto currency that that uses a different algorithm that is resistant to CPU's, like Litecoin, so that we can save Bitcoin and our crypto-independence!

By Switching To Another Bitcoin Algorithm, Or By Using Litecoin We Can Save Our Crypto-Independence!


The only options we have now is to change the Bitcoin algorithm, or for everyone to switch to another CPU proof crypto currency. The ideal situation would be for the Bitcoin developers to change the algorithm, but that does not seem to be what they plan to do. So that's where Litecoin comes in. While Litecoin is not CPU proof, it is CPU resistant. It runs on an algorithm called scrypt that is highly memory intensive, which makes it much harder to produce an CPU for Litecoin. Even if a company would find a way to produce an CPU for it, it would take at least a year to design, produce and ship them. So it would be our 'safe heaven' from CPU, saving us from the many disadvantages and negative effects that CPU threatens to bring to Bitcoin and the cryptocurrency world. At the very least, it would be buying us more time to work on something to prevent mining hardware companies from taking over our crypto currencies. People will be able to continue to pencil-and-paper mine, continue to profit, once again allowing us to be in control of when/where we buy our mining hardware, as well as, at what cost we buy it at. Allowing the control of the crypto world to stay in our hands, not the hands of greedy companies!

Jay1337

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October 21, 2012, 05:40:44 AM
 #31

Why GPU's Should Not Be The Future Of Crypto Currencies


GPU's are not a natural technological generation leap like going from paper to CPU was. GPU's & mining software are simply specialized processing units made specifically for Bitcoin. Which i do not beleive is following the original intentions of Satoshi, for many reasons.

Moving from paper to CPU mining will not be the same as going from CPU to GPU mining. The reason here is because paper and CPU's have decentralized distribution. They are mass produced by huge companies  giving you the option to buy their products in any city, no matter where you live! This allows us to be in control of when and where we get our mining hardware, and to a certain degree, at what cost. (Which helps the decentralization process). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralization

While on the other hand, CPU's are mass produced, supply is controlled, price is controlled, they are in limited quantity, can only be bought from a few companies/sources, that in reality nobody even knows for sure they can trust. So what will happen is all the miners in the world will be forced to rely on those few companies for CPU's. And we will be subject to their pricing. They will also control the supply of the mining rigs, which can have an effect on the bitcoin economy that is similar to the effect that the U.S Federal Reserve and banks have on the money supply. I'm not talking about the amount of money/BTC, but when it is available/mineable to the miners. This allows CPU manufacturers to be in control of when and where we get our mining hardware. (All this hurts the decentralization process)

People will have to rely on the small quantities that these companies produce, which causes people to have wait for their hardware, which in the end causes people to potentially lose money. This is exactly what is happening right now. Many people are waiting to see what happens with GPU's, so that they can start buying mining  hardware again. So, basically if GPU didn't exist people would continue to buy CPUs as i type this, which would have meant more profit for those people now and in the future, which would have meant more money in those peoples pockets. This is where the 'Federal Reserve effect' comes in, because now mining hardware companies can control when people buy/receive their hardware, plus control when people get more or less profit through controlling the mining hardware supply. Also, buying GPU's from a few small companies means whenever those companies come out with a new model, this process will start all over again. More lost money, more time lost waiting for release/shipping.

Another downfall of GPU, is the fact that GPU's will make everyone have to 'restart from scratch' buying mining hardware all over again, when most people already  have their mining hardware in the form of CPUs, and it is already paid off. Now you will have to sell all your CPUs, then have to buy $1000's of dollars of GPU's just to be able to keep up with all the other players with the increasing difficulty. After that, you will have to wait all over again to get your return on  your investment! Which could take half a year or more, once difficulty adjusts, which should just take about a month or so.

Once GPUs come out, the difficulty will adjust accordingly. Which will just cause everyone to make the same amount of money as they were before GPU's. So the question is, is it necessary for us to go through all of what i mentioned above, to just end up making the same amount of money as you were before with GPU's, just a month or so later, with GPU's?

Because of the above mentioned costs, plus the added cost of GPU'S, this can hinder the widespread global adoption of Bitcoin just because of the sheer expense. This is especially true for people in other smaller, less wealthy countries. It is much easier to obtain a used CPUs for those people. People that could be helping to build security and decentralization for Bitcoin!

GPU's threaten to ruin any anonymity that Bitcoin has left. This is by potentially making it easier to track who is buying the mining rigs through the few small companies that sell the GPU's. Which could potentially be bad if Bitcoin ever became illegal!

There are also many more smaller disadvantages of moving towards GPU that are of less importance.

So now it comes to the advantages of GPU. That's where everything boils down to in the end. The problem is there are not enough advantages to using GPU, for them to outweigh the disadvantages it brings to the table! In my opinion, network security and lowered power consumption cannot make up for the potential problems that it brings. This is an economy. This is not about power consumption! It will all come down to economics in the end. And that is what I'm talking about. And that is the infostructure that Satoshi built Bitcoin on!

The  Bitcoin developers, and the Crypto Community in general needs the recognize GPU's as a threat, and we should all do something to stop this from happening. I do not think that Satoshi would think the way these GPU's are to be distributed would be good for the Bitcoin economy in general.  There are a few things we can do to combat this, like changing the algorithm to prevent the usage of GPU's. Or, we could all switch to another crypto currency that that uses a different algorithm that is resistant to GPU's, like Litecoin, so that we can save Bitcoin and our crypto-independence!

By Switching To Another Bitcoin Algorithm, Or By Using Litecoin We Can Save Our Crypto-Independence!

The only options we have now is to change the Bitcoin algorithm, or for everyone to switch to another GPU proof crypto currency. The ideal situation would be for the Bitcoin developers to change the algorithm, but that does not seem to be what they plan to do. So that's where Litecoin comes in. While Litecoin is not GPU proof, it is GPU resistant. It runs on an algorithm called scrypt that is highly memory intensive, which makes it much harder to produce a GPU for Litecoin. Even if a company would find a way to produce a GPU for it, it would take at least a year to design, produce and ship them. So it would be our 'safe heaven' from GPU, saving us from the many disadvantages and negative effects that GPU threatens to bring to Bitcoin and the cryptocurrency world. At the very least, it would be buying us more time to work on something to prevent mining hardware companies from taking over our crypto currencies. People will be able to continue to GPU mine, continue to profit, once again allowing us to be in control of when/where we buy our mining hardware, as well as, at what cost we buy it at. Allowing the control of the crypto world to stay in our hands, not the hands of greedy companies!

Jay1337

Please act professional since you're representing BFL.  What a joke.

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niko
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October 21, 2012, 05:52:52 AM
 #32

OP just wasted bitcointalk.org SQL database space with pointless rambling.
I wonder about the computational burden of my "ignore" list. Likely insignificant compared to the burden of having to read through useless, misguided ramblings in the future.

They're there, in their room.
Your mining rig is on fire, yet you're very calm.
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October 21, 2012, 06:01:54 AM
 #33

Quote
Please act professional since you're representing BFL.  What a joke.
BFL itself is a joke. Scam to be more exact. And he is acting fully professional - rebutting criticism to ASIC technology to get every single ASIC preorder until they reveal that no ASIC miner is made.
Quote
Try presenting rational arguments instead of reposting the same thing over and over again. You both look like stupid children.
Take some smoke and read the texts where the CPU technology is criticized over older pencil and paper technology. The trolling shows the OP concerns as completely invalid. All that was done is automatic replacing words containing previous technology with technology generation before that.
Quote
CPU's are not a natural technological generation leap like going from rocks-and-seashells to pencil-and-paper was. CPU's are simply specialized processing units made specifically for Bitcoin.
I spilled my beer on the floor when I started to read after finishing Find And Replace in Notepad++

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October 21, 2012, 07:05:48 AM
 #34

Why GPU's Should Not Be The Future Of Crypto Currencies


GPU's are not a natural technological generation leap like going from paper to CPU was. GPU's & mining software are simply specialized processing units made specifically for Bitcoin. Which i do not beleive is following the original intentions of Satoshi, for many reasons.

Moving from paper to CPU mining will not be the same as going from CPU to GPU mining. The reason here is because paper and CPU's have decentralized distribution. They are mass produced by huge companies  giving you the option to buy their products in any city, no matter where you live! This allows us to be in control of when and where we get our mining hardware, and to a certain degree, at what cost. (Which helps the decentralization process). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralization

While on the other hand, CPU's are mass produced, supply is controlled, price is controlled, they are in limited quantity, can only be bought from a few companies/sources, that in reality nobody even knows for sure they can trust. So what will happen is all the miners in the world will be forced to rely on those few companies for CPU's. And we will be subject to their pricing. They will also control the supply of the mining rigs, which can have an effect on the bitcoin economy that is similar to the effect that the U.S Federal Reserve and banks have on the money supply. I'm not talking about the amount of money/BTC, but when it is available/mineable to the miners. This allows CPU manufacturers to be in control of when and where we get our mining hardware. (All this hurts the decentralization process)

People will have to rely on the small quantities that these companies produce, which causes people to have wait for their hardware, which in the end causes people to potentially lose money. This is exactly what is happening right now. Many people are waiting to see what happens with GPU's, so that they can start buying mining  hardware again. So, basically if GPU didn't exist people would continue to buy CPUs as i type this, which would have meant more profit for those people now and in the future, which would have meant more money in those peoples pockets. This is where the 'Federal Reserve effect' comes in, because now mining hardware companies can control when people buy/receive their hardware, plus control when people get more or less profit through controlling the mining hardware supply. Also, buying GPU's from a few small companies means whenever those companies come out with a new model, this process will start all over again. More lost money, more time lost waiting for release/shipping.

Another downfall of GPU, is the fact that GPU's will make everyone have to 'restart from scratch' buying mining hardware all over again, when most people already  have their mining hardware in the form of CPUs, and it is already paid off. Now you will have to sell all your CPUs, then have to buy $1000's of dollars of GPU's just to be able to keep up with all the other players with the increasing difficulty. After that, you will have to wait all over again to get your return on  your investment! Which could take half a year or more, once difficulty adjusts, which should just take about a month or so.

Once GPUs come out, the difficulty will adjust accordingly. Which will just cause everyone to make the same amount of money as they were before GPU's. So the question is, is it necessary for us to go through all of what i mentioned above, to just end up making the same amount of money as you were before with GPU's, just a month or so later, with GPU's?

Because of the above mentioned costs, plus the added cost of GPU'S, this can hinder the widespread global adoption of Bitcoin just because of the sheer expense. This is especially true for people in other smaller, less wealthy countries. It is much easier to obtain a used CPUs for those people. People that could be helping to build security and decentralization for Bitcoin!

GPU's threaten to ruin any anonymity that Bitcoin has left. This is by potentially making it easier to track who is buying the mining rigs through the few small companies that sell the GPU's. Which could potentially be bad if Bitcoin ever became illegal!

There are also many more smaller disadvantages of moving towards GPU that are of less importance.

So now it comes to the advantages of GPU. That's where everything boils down to in the end. The problem is there are not enough advantages to using GPU, for them to outweigh the disadvantages it brings to the table! In my opinion, network security and lowered power consumption cannot make up for the potential problems that it brings. This is an economy. This is not about power consumption! It will all come down to economics in the end. And that is what I'm talking about. And that is the infostructure that Satoshi built Bitcoin on!

The  Bitcoin developers, and the Crypto Community in general needs the recognize GPU's as a threat, and we should all do something to stop this from happening. I do not think that Satoshi would think the way these GPU's are to be distributed would be good for the Bitcoin economy in general.  There are a few things we can do to combat this, like changing the algorithm to prevent the usage of GPU's. Or, we could all switch to another crypto currency that that uses a different algorithm that is resistant to GPU's, like Litecoin, so that we can save Bitcoin and our crypto-independence!

By Switching To Another Bitcoin Algorithm, Or By Using Litecoin We Can Save Our Crypto-Independence!

The only options we have now is to change the Bitcoin algorithm, or for everyone to switch to another GPU proof crypto currency. The ideal situation would be for the Bitcoin developers to change the algorithm, but that does not seem to be what they plan to do. So that's where Litecoin comes in. While Litecoin is not GPU proof, it is GPU resistant. It runs on an algorithm called scrypt that is highly memory intensive, which makes it much harder to produce a GPU for Litecoin. Even if a company would find a way to produce a GPU for it, it would take at least a year to design, produce and ship them. So it would be our 'safe heaven' from GPU, saving us from the many disadvantages and negative effects that GPU threatens to bring to Bitcoin and the cryptocurrency world. At the very least, it would be buying us more time to work on something to prevent mining hardware companies from taking over our crypto currencies. People will be able to continue to GPU mine, continue to profit, once again allowing us to be in control of when/where we buy our mining hardware, as well as, at what cost we buy it at. Allowing the control of the crypto world to stay in our hands, not the hands of greedy companies!

Jay1337

Please act professional since you're representing BFL.  What a joke.

I am?

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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October 22, 2012, 01:40:42 PM
 #35

actually i should have said

 "can only be bought from a few sources"

 Grin

Market tendencies will surely bring in more competition for them, right?
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October 22, 2012, 02:46:53 PM
 #36

Quote
It's quite easy to throw 128k of sram on a chip and scream out one cycle/hash.  You'd get an even bigger speedup over GPUs and CPUs than you get from Bitcoin.

Yes, wow, i didn't think it would be so easy to make one  Undecided

Also, i realize some of the things i say are highly theoretical, but i'm just looking at all possibilities.

My main concern is the centralized distribution of ASIC's. I mean, i can walk down my street and pick up a GPU. Can that be done with an ASIC?  Wink

It wasn't always possible to pick up a GPU either. Over time things will change. Ces't la vie.

more or less retired.
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October 23, 2012, 09:58:27 PM
 #37

ASIC's are just going to speed up the process of centralizing the money, and making the poor poorer and the rich richer to an even greater extent than things are already.

Imho ASICs will help us secure Bitcoin from being sabotaged by governments and thus help us take away the control over money printing from the rich. Which in fact will enable the poor to get richer.
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October 23, 2012, 10:06:46 PM
 #38

Anyone who thinks litecoin is the answer to anything needs to spend like, 15 seconds thinking about the topic.  Anything that happens to BTC will happen to litecoin eventually. The only thing the rise of litecoin would bring is the downfall of cryptocurrency all together.

And if you say you have already thought about it...then think harder.

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October 23, 2012, 10:09:22 PM
 #39

So uh, what is the OP's proposal?  ASIC's can't be prevented from being made.  Even Litecoin ASICs will come into being quite quickly if the Litecoin market cap and mining proceeds make it reasonable to create them.

Basically, whether you believe ASICs are good for any of these crypto-currencies or not doesn't matter.  They are coming either way, and there's no way to stop them.
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October 24, 2012, 02:45:10 AM
 #40

There are a few things i would like to set straight. I am not writing this because i have a GPU farm, or because i hate ASIC's, or even because i'm a Litecoin supporter. On the contrary, i only have three GPU's, i think the idea and potential benefits ASIC could bring is wonderful, and even though i am a Litecoin supporter, i am only one because of my perceived threats from ASIC, which i mentioned in my original post. Nevertheless, i have mined much more Bitcoin than Litecoin in my past, and continue to do so today. Basically, when it comes down to it, i am a Bitcoin supporter first!
I simply believe there will be problems with the distribution, not ASIC in general.

Ok, so on the topic of distribution.

Intel and AMD's CPU's and GPU's can be bought from many more than two sources! When i say sources, i'm talking about distributors/local retail locations. Even if at one time it was harder to find a GPU, that was short lived, and bound to change because of the size of video card manufacturers. I do not believe that Bitcoin ASIC/FPGA manufacturers have the size and capacity to distribute at a high enough volume to meet the demand. Which leads to my main concerns about distribution.

This concern has already been put to the test i believe, and in my opinion has not worked out as people would have thought it would. My example is FPGA's. Yes, some of you (which have mocked my post above) have made example saying moving towards ASIC is the same as going from CPU to GPU, and GPU to FPGA. The only problem with that example is that when we moved to GPU, almost everyone started mining with a GPU. And when we moved to FPGA's, a much smaller percent of the community moved to FPGA's, and that is with the added fact that FPGA's use much less electricity, and are easier to use/setup than a GPU mining rig.

So if FPGA's are better than GPU's in every way (like ASIC's), why didn't everyone switch to FPGA's? Why can't you buy a Bitcoin FPGA at your local computer store? Your answer is in my original post. The answer is centralized distribution, as well as problems with supply/demand. Which is also the reason i own GPU's, and not FPGA's. As well as many others. Even though i wanted some! I feel we may have a repeat of this all over again with ASIC's.

I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but i believe that more than 50% of the miners out there use GPU's, and it has been more than six months since FPGA's have been announced/released for pre-order. Back when GPU mining software came available for Bitcoin, within six months the GPU adoption level was much higher than 50%. Which in my opinion shows the adoption rate for Bitcoin mining is much lower when the mining hardware distribution is more centralized. Which leads to to my primary concerns about centralized distribution in my original post.

 It's simple economics!? :/

Jay1337
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