Avalon 6 Vs Antminer S7, which one you will choose?

[Xircom]

sorry guys, on avalon6S, my major design goal is to lower the cost and keep it stable & reliable at the same time.

look, most of your attention is price, price, price. how can i waste any more cents on user expreiences? 

ng

Only some few ones shout price price price. I shout reliable (like sp20) a work horse (like sp20) and nice gui with lots of setup OPS. In my hosted farm (in another country) were I do the monitoring through vpn, I need a reliable miner with automatic reboot or restart of cgminer when hashrate drops to a specified low hashrate. Power use is essential but for a 50-100 th orders pr order bulk pricing is more important than what 2,3 or 5 units cost.
Finally we need to break Bitmains monopoly…
Keep up the good work and let me know when you guys are ready for a trial miner before bulk orders.

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[Finksy]

Intesting you mention the SP20, because by the time the SP20 was selling in enough volume to compete with the then-current S5, SP-Tech was selling them for a loss.  They even acknowledged that it was built too expensively, but that they were not willing to sacrifice quality or design because that's who they are. I'm sure this is a large reason why they are staying out of the consumer market for this gen (that and to avoid dealing with whining customers).

So the basic fact remains, the market is a free one in which price dictates demand.  If you want to sell miners for a profit, make it cheap and reliable enough for others to be able to turn a profit on it (even a small one).  If you want to either not sell, or sell for a loss, over-engineer it and include all the creature comforts.  Remember, other than a small group of individuals (enthusiasts) in our community, most miners buy hardware in-line with a business model, these aren't Playstations or iPhones where we get some kind of entertainment value out of them.

The SP20 was a win for us consumers, but it was far from a win for the company, at least from what I gather...

[Xircom]

Intesting you mention the SP20, because by the time the SP20 was selling in enough volume to compete with the then-current S5, SP-Tech was selling them for a loss.  They even acknowledged that it was built too expensively, but that they were not willing to sacrifice quality or design because that's who they are. I'm sure this is a large reason why they are staying out of the consumer market for this gen (that and to avoid dealing with whining customers).

So the basic fact remains, the market is a free one in which price dictates demand.  If you want to sell miners for a profit, make it cheap and reliable enough for others to be able to turn a profit on it (even a small one).  If you want to either not sell, or sell for a loss, over-engineer it and include all the creature comforts.  Remember, other than a small group of individuals (enthusiasts) in our community, most miners buy hardware in-line with a business model, these aren't Playstations or iPhones where we get some kind of entertainment value out of them.

The SP20 was a win for us consumers, but it was far from a win for the company, at least from what I gather...

Finsky, i give you right in most of your comments, but in my mixed farm with both SP20 and An S5 the SP20 is running for months without power cycle is needed, but each day 1-2 ants needs power cycle and not only a Cgminer restart. In 1 month 4 ants needs repair out of 75 and my first batch of SP20 from January 50 pcs are working flawless downclocked to 1.35 TH.
For me it costs fortunes to get Ants back for repair and rhen shipping back, so reliability is important.
You are right that to beat Bitmain, Avalon needs to release something of same build, but just more reliable and they will get a lot of customers.

[Finksy]

Finsky, i give you right in most of your comments, but in my mixed farm with both SP20 and An S5 the SP20 is running for months without power cycle is needed, but each day 1-2 ants needs power cycle and not only a Cgminer restart. In 1 month 4 ants needs repair out of 75 and my first batch of SP20 from January 50 pcs are working flawless downclocked to 1.35 TH.
For me it costs fortunes to get Ants back for repair and rhen shipping back, so reliability is important.
You are right that to beat Bitmain, Avalon needs to release something of same build, but just more reliable and they will get a lot of customers.

I'm not disagreeing with you in the least, my point was simply from the company's perspective as ng is here representing Avalon.  The Antminer S5 fared better for Bitmain than the SP20 did for SP-Tech, because the SP20 was built so well and had difficulty competing from a pricing point of view.  This is not a bash to the company or their product, in fact quite the opposite. I had ~20 SP20's and they all performed flawlessly  (Except that they didn't meet the claimed max specs but that's another story).  However as I mentioned, if you want to sell miners in appreciable quantities without taking a loss on your product -especially in a fast-depreciating market like bitcoin miners- you need to build it to a certain price point, not price it to a certain build point.

Hash rate and efficiency are the epitome of a standardized product.  The block chain does not care what brand, efficiency, or quality of miner put out the hash that solves each block.  And, as most of us are in it to make money, it needs to be priced competitively in order to achieve our goals, plain and simple.  That does not mean that Avalon's product may be given more value to it due to the fact that they produce quality miners, and their last gen was quiet enough for home mining, that does count for something. But again, $$$ in and $$$ out, for most of us it is black and white. 

[philipma1957]

the avalon 4.1 was way more reliable due to the rasp pi controller.

buy 2 of them 1 for work 1 for backup.

hookup  3 or more to 1 rasp pi and you are set.

the 4.1 was quiet I had 3 purchased a fourth on ebay and that deal fell through.

I would love to review a 6 when the time comes.

The wife would also like it since it would be cooler and quieter then the s-7 running in house now.

[notlist3d]

the avalon 4.1 was way more reliable due to the rasp pi controller.

buy 2 of them 1 for work 1 for backup.

hookup  3 or more to 1 rasp pi and you are set.

the 4.1 was quiet I had 3 purchased a fourth on ebay and that deal fell through.

I would love to review a 6 when the time comes.

The wife would also like it since it would be cooler and quieter then the s-7 running in house now.

I would agree a Avalon 6 would be something on my list to get eventually. I still have my 4.1's running they ran all summer and did it great.  They are great on under clock and honestly the most quiet fan miner I've ever tested.

I hope they get it out there on market in not to long.  But they are pretty quiet.

[mavericklm]

The price of 4.1 was crap! the price of a second hand one was even crappier!

Show me the avalon 6!

[notlist3d]

The price of 4.1 was crap! the price of a second hand one was even crappier!

Show me the avalon 6!

It was priced at a premium price no doubt.  I don't expect 4.1 to jump down.  It is a quiet miner with nice underclock and very very quiet. So if you compare to like S5 it will always be higher.  I was so happy with 1, i got 2 more Avalon 4.1's.

Avalon 6 no one can say what price will be yet.

[mavericklm]

repeating the price policy behind 4.1, might spell bankruptcy

[notlist3d]

repeating the price policy behind 4.1, might spell bankruptcy

They wont go bankrupt.  They made money off of 4.1's.  They actually did better the other's they were willing to hold till they got price they needed/wanted.

Look at SP20 that kept dropping, and said they took a loss on some of last ones.  They kept 4.1 pretty even on price and did not jump into the price war. So they were pretty smart as a business on that.

[ngzhang]

In general.

Avalon didn't sell products in a loss, we just stop production when it's not competitive enough.
Then you see the Avalon4.1's cost very high so the retail price can not go down. (~2000RMB at last I remember)

For sp20s, I did a very carefully review on it. I think their marginal cost is close to ~2000USD. Any NREs are NOT included.
It means sp-tech sell them at about 15~20% of their cost.

Bitmain did a very good job on the tradeoff about price, performance, reliability and UE. This is worth learning for all miner manufacturers.

About avalon6S, I think it's a miner designed for big mining field. We did a lot of job on mining farm management systems in the past year.

I have a plan to do a low noise DCDC solution miner (Avalon6P )for home, but it's sure will have a higher price (30% cost increase) and
lower efficiency (5-8% decrease) compare to a "string" solution. Also it's far more difficult to design & manufacture.

So the reality let me pause. 

ng

[notlist3d]

In general.

Avalon didn't sell products in a loss, we just stop production when it's not competitive enough.
Then you see the Avalon4.1's cost very high so the retail price can not go down. (~2000RMB at last I remember)

For sp20s, I did a very carefully review on it. I think their marginal cost is close to ~2000USD. Any NREs are NOT included.
It means sp-tech sell them at about 15~20% of their cost.

Bitmain did a very good job on the tradeoff about price, performance, reliability and UE. This is worth learning for all miner manufacturers.

About avalon6S, I think it's a miner designed for big mining field. We did a lot of job on mining farm management systems in the past year.

I have a plan to do a low noise DCDC solution miner (Avalon6P )for home, but it's sure will have a higher price (30% cost increase) and
lower efficiency (5-8% decrease) compare to a "string" solution. Also it's far more difficult to design & manufacture.

So the reality let me pause. 

ng

I'm excited to see what you have coming.  I still have not parted from my 3 Avalon 4.1's.   I love them with Pi as controller and low sound, I had them in my bedroom.  Only big miner I have done this with.

Now they are in my mining area.  But I still love them. 

[dogie]

I have a plan to do a low noise DCDC solution miner (Avalon6P )for home, but it's sure will have a higher price (30% cost increase) and
lower efficiency (5-8% decrease) compare to a "string" solution. Also it's far more difficult to design & manufacture.

Why does the design have to shift to DCDC again in order to make a home miner? Bitmain had string miner boards as low as 250W.

[crazyearner]

antminer all the way no more avalon tried in past and cost more than ever mined and didnt even brake even well recovered about 90% ish but still a loss will never use avalon again and higher power use and delivery times ill pass.

[notlist3d]

antminer all the way no more avalon tried in past and cost more than ever mined and didnt even brake even well recovered about 90% ish but still a loss will never use avalon again and higher power use and delivery times ill pass.

Depends on pricing.  Which Avalon are you referring to?

I know  some consider Canaan-creative different, and some still hold a grudge from when it was just Avalon.   I do not take sides as i was not part of it all.   I can say the 4.1 is a great machine.  If they do like that on the Avalon 6 and close or lower then bitmin I would definitely try one.

[mavericklm]

Must be price and wattage competitive with bitmain.
4.1 was too expensive and too late for its power consumption

[Xircom]

Again It depends on your power prices. No matter what, BTC mining is Fast moving from the West to the East just because of energy pricing, so I think that Avalon could have a big marked in the east.
If just you Eletric pricing is below 0,05 $ then you can make profit of course depending on the price of the miner.
Last, most miners would say today, that its not worth it, but that's just to keep new miners away or = increasing Diff = Miners ROI point gets longer.
So miners would always say, stay out of the game, its too late.

[YuginKadoya]

antminer all the way no more avalon tried in past and cost more than ever mined and didnt even brake even well recovered about 90% ish but still a loss will never use avalon again and higher power use and delivery times ill pass.

Depends on pricing.  Which Avalon are you referring to?

I know  some consider Canaan-creative different, and some still hold a grudge from when it was just Avalon.   I do not take sides as i was not part of it all.   I can say the 4.1 is a great machine.  If they do like that on the Avalon 6 and close or lower then bitmin I would definitely try one.

Different machines has different approach, I must admit the convenient and popularity of the antminers that is why many has using S7, but for me I will try both product, a miner is still a miner why debate for superiority, in mining industry there are lot of cost to settle and for me using different miner machines is alright as long as I ROI.

[QuintLeo]

The S7 is not selling well because Bitmain priced it high enough to make RoI on it VERY VERY IFFY even at low electric cost (5c and under / kwh).

 If the spec that have been "published" so far on a new Avalon unit are correct, it needs to beat price/TH vs the S7 to have a prayer of selling significantly, at it's even LESS efficient (though close) and will have even less probability of achieving RoI than the S7 if it's price isn't less/TH.

BTC mining is Fast moving from the West to the East just because of energy pricing

 There are places in "the West" that can match Chinese energy pricing - there are quite a few other factors involved in the strength of Bitcoin mining in China.

[notlist3d]

The S7 is not selling well because Bitmain priced it high enough to make RoI on it VERY VERY IFFY even at low electric cost (5c and under / kwh).

 If the spec that have been "published" so far on a new Avalon unit are correct, it needs to beat price/TH vs the S7 to have a prayer of selling significantly, at it's even LESS efficient (though close) and will have even less probability of achieving RoI than the S7 if it's price isn't less/TH.

BTC mining is Fast moving from the West to the East just because of energy pricing

 There are places in "the West" that can match Chinese energy pricing - there are quite a few other factors involved in the strength of Bitcoin mining in China.

Like being able to get a truck and drive to a Asic manufacture fill it up and go to a data center.  For example US a semi load quite a bit of shipping, China semi to data center much cheaper.   

I think it will take having till a lot of US focus more on electricity price.   At that point our data centers will drop some in price.