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Author Topic: If bitcoins go to $100 or even $1000 in value each, Could there be a Safeguard?  (Read 4575 times)
DannyHamilton
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October 23, 2012, 08:56:17 PM
 #21

Now go ahead and list the disadvantages. They are far more powerful. Terrorist links, money laundering, tax evasion (serious since without taxes you wouldnt have many things that you take for granted everyday,) . . . not accepted throughout the world only in a very minute part of the population.
You seem to be confused.  What you have described there is the United States Twenty Dollar Bill.  Or perhaps the Twenty Euro note? In other words you are describing attributes of currency, any currency.  Clearly these attributes are not getting in the way of widespread use of these currencies.

What you people dont understand about inflation is it will exist anyways with or without bitcoin. Since the cost of goods are going up regardless itll just take more bitcoins to buy the same good.
Saying that inflation will always exist, and that the cost of goods are going up regardless, and that it'll just take more bitcoins to buy the same good doesn't make it true.  As a matter of fact, it is pretty clear that you have already been proven wrong, as it already takes less bitcoins to buy something than it did 3 months ago, and it took less bitcoins three months ago than it did 6 months ago, and it took less bitcoins 6 months ago than it did a year ago.  Clearly, you need to re-think what you are saying here.


. . .only 21 million coins possible
You are mistaken here as well.  In reality, Bitcoin moves the decimal place eight places to the left just to make it easier for us humans in these early days when bitcoin is dealling with really big numbers.  Given the current protocol, with no significant changes in the future to divide into smaller units, there will be nearly 2.1 quadrillion whole coins.  That should be enough for a very long time.

Bitcoins isnt revolutionizing anything its just a cool concept. If it was then bitcoins would be far bigger than it is. Most people have never even heard of bitcoin.
How long does it typically take for a revolutionizing concept to catch on from it's earliest beginnings as an experiment until it is in widespread mainstream use?  I can think of a few examples (electricity, telephone, internet, radio, automobile, aircraft, etc) and none of them were all that big 4 years after someone first came up with the idea and tried it out.  Can you think of a single revolutionizing concept that went from experimental idea to widespread mainstream use in less than 4 years?


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flynn
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October 23, 2012, 09:00:24 PM
 #22

I just like these threads telling me that bitcoins will be worth $1000 one day ...

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ryann
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October 23, 2012, 09:00:44 PM
 #23

Now go ahead and list the disadvantages. They are far more powerful. Terrorist links, money laundering, tax evasion (serious since without taxes you wouldnt have many things that you take for granted everyday,) . . . not accepted throughout the world only in a very minute part of the population.
You seem to be confused.  What you have described there is the United States Twenty Dollar Bill.  Or perhaps the Twenty Euro note? In other words you are describing attributes of currency, any currency.  Clearly these attributes are not getting in the way of widespread use of these currencies.

What you people dont understand about inflation is it will exist anyways with or without bitcoin. Since the cost of goods are going up regardless itll just take more bitcoins to buy the same good.
Saying that inflation will always exist, and that the cost of goods are going up regardless, and that it'll just take more bitcoins to buy the same good doesn't make it true.  As a matter of fact, it is pretty clear that you have already been proven wrong, as it already takes less bitcoins to buy something than it did 3 months ago, and it took less bitcoins three months ago than it did 6 months ago, and it took less bitcoins 6 months ago than it did a year ago.  Clearly, you need to re-think what you are saying here.


. . .only 21 million coins possible
You are mistaken here as well.  In reality, Bitcoin moves the decimal place eight places to the left just to make it easier for us humans in these early days when bitcoin is dealling with really big numbers.  Given the current protocol, with no significant changes in the future to divide into smaller units, there will be nearly 2.1 quadrillion whole coins.  That should be enough for a very long time.

Bitcoins isnt revolutionizing anything its just a cool concept. If it was then bitcoins would be far bigger than it is. Most people have never even heard of bitcoin.
How long does it typically take for a revolutionizing concept to catch on from it's earliest beginnings as an experiment until it is in widespread mainstream use?  I can think of a few examples (electricity, telephone, internet, radio, automobile, aircraft, etc) and none of them were all that big 4 years after someone first came up with the idea and tried it out.  Can you think of a single revolutionizing concept that went from experimental idea to widespread mainstream use in less than 4 years?



Sigh. Everyone of your replies are completley wrong except for the 21 millions which every site seems to say that is the max. And for thr last part in thsi day and age revolutionary ideas cathc on like wildfire just look at apple products. Dotn compare the telephone and radio and the wheel to bitcoins.
DannyHamilton
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October 23, 2012, 09:07:46 PM
 #24

Sigh. Everyone of your replies are completley wrong except for the 21 millions which every site seems to say that is the max. And for thr last part in thsi day and age revolutionary ideas cathc on like wildfire just look at apple products. Dotn compare the telephone and radio and the wheel to bitcoins.
I'm sorry, but I'm having a difficult time catching on to what you are saying.

Which of my replies are wrong? Or more importantly, how are they wrong?

Which of Apple's products do you consider revolutionary, and how long did it take for the product to go from an experimental idea in Apple's lab to mainstream widespread use?

ryann
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October 23, 2012, 09:15:57 PM
 #25

Sigh. Everyone of your replies are completley wrong except for the 21 millions which every site seems to say that is the max. And for thr last part in thsi day and age revolutionary ideas cathc on like wildfire just look at apple products. Dotn compare the telephone and radio and the wheel to bitcoins.
I'm sorry, but I'm having a difficult time catching on to what you are saying.

Which of my replies are wrong? Or more importantly, how are they wrong?

Which of Apple's products do you consider revolutionary, and how long did it take for the product to go from an experimental idea in Apple's lab to mainstream widespread use?

I said every one of the mare wrong except for maybe the 21 million coin ones. I gave Apple as an example. The Ipod for one is revolutionary it caught on like wildfire. Bitcoin is not an experimental idea. It works the way it is supposed to and it is not changing.
ryann
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October 23, 2012, 09:21:36 PM
 #26

"Saying that inflation will always exist, and that the cost of goods are going up regardless, and that it'll just take more bitcoins to buy the same good doesn't make it true.  As a matter of fact, it is pretty clear that you have already been proven wrong, as it already takes less bitcoins to buy something than it did 3 months ago, and it took less bitcoins three months ago than it did 6 months ago, and it took less bitcoins 6 months ago than it did a year ago.  Clearly, you need to re-think what you are saying here."

Do you realize that you make no sense here? Bitcoin is just a type of currency whether it be digital or not. IF it costs $5 for milk then it will cost say 0.5 BTC. If milk goes up in price then its not going to cost 0.5BTC anymore will it? Hence inflation will exist.

Your second response

"You seem to be confused.  What you have described there is the United States Twenty Dollar Bill.  Or perhaps the Twenty Euro note? In other words you are describing attributes of currency, any currency.  Clearly these attributes are not getting in the way of widespread use of these currencies."

That is the whole point of currency being controlled and centralized. Bitcoin is not, yet so how can you freeze funds or anyhitng of that sort with bitcoins? You can't. So its you who seem to be confused.

I have no clue how to "quote" it so i did it liek this.
BlackBison
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October 23, 2012, 09:24:14 PM
 #27


Now go ahead and list the disadvantages. They are far more powerful. Terrorist links, bomb making recipes, film and music piracy (serious since without entertainment revenues you wouldnt have many things that you take for granted everyday,) paedophiles in chat rooms, not accepted throughout the world only in a very minute part of the population, scams everywhere, extremem difficulty in aquiring a connection.  What you people dont understand about information is it will exist anyways with or without the internet. Since the cost of communications are going down regardless itll just take a bit less internet to send the same information. The internet isnt revolutionizing anything its just a cool concept. If it was then the internet would be far bigger than it is. Most people have never even heard of the internet.

Quote from ryann's Dad in 1990.

You see what I did there?  Grin

ryann
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October 23, 2012, 09:26:23 PM
 #28


Now go ahead and list the disadvantages. They are far more powerful. Terrorist links, bomb making recipes, film and music piracy (serious since without entertainment revenues you wouldnt have many things that you take for granted everyday,) paedophiles in chat rooms, not accepted throughout the world only in a very minute part of the population, scams everywhere, extremem difficulty in aquiring a connection.  What you people dont understand about information is it will exist anyways with or without the internet. Since the cost of communications are going down regardless itll just take a bit less internet to send the same information. The internet isnt revolutionizing anything its just a cool concept. If it was then the internet would be far bigger than it is. Most people have never even heard of the internet.

Quote from ryann's Dad in 1990.

You see what I did there?  Grin

:S Was that some attempt at a joke lol. You owe me 5 btc for that horrid post lol
DannyHamilton
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October 23, 2012, 09:29:17 PM
 #29

I said every one of the mare wrong except for maybe the 21 million coin ones.
Ah, ok, I see now, everything I said is wrong simply because you said it is wrong.  I apologize for not realizing that things that you say are wrong, are wrong because you say so.  So clearly my opinion that has been backed up by facts and examples is wrong.  I retract what I said, and have now come to the realization that I should agree with you.  Thank you for your helpful explanation and detailed analysis of the situation.

I gave Apple as an example. The Ipod for one is revolutionary it caught on like wildfire. Bitcoin is not an experimental idea. It works the way it is supposed to and it is not changing.
Apple came up with the concept for the iPod in 2000, and hadn't reached 10 million units manufactured until 2005.  Satoshi came up with the idea of Bitcoin in 2008 and we have already reached 10 million units manufactured(mined) in 2012.  Clearly bitcoin is catching on faster than the iPod.

DeathAndTaxes
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October 23, 2012, 09:30:03 PM
 #30

I said every one of the mare wrong except for maybe the 21 million coin ones. I gave Apple as an example. The Ipod for one is revolutionary it caught on like wildfire. Bitcoin is not an experimental idea. It works the way it is supposed to and it is not changing.

Lets use your ipod example (although I don't consider the ipod especially revolutionary more a very perfected design of existing tech).

Apple began designing the ipod in 1999.  It launched in 2001 and it was 2004 (iTunes) before sales became anything more than a rounding error.  Sales didn't peak until 2008 (9 years after the project began).



General revolutionary ideas take a decade or so to catch on and the last 20 or so years are no exception, Personal Computer, gaming consoles, Internet adoption, ecommerce sales, digital distribution, Linux, video rental, cellphones, etc. Like in the ipod example with iTunes often it requires the development of supporting services before the potential is really seen by the masses.

As far as Bitcoin not being experimental you do understand that major portions of the protocol haven't even been written yet (pruning, archival nodes, contracts, full mult-sig support, etc).  With the inclusion of P2SH Bitcoin had a major protocol change less than six months ago.   If that doesn't classify it as experimental I don't know what would (code that doesn't compile?).

DannyHamilton
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October 23, 2012, 09:41:51 PM
 #31

Do you realize that you make no sense here? Bitcoin is just a type of currency whether it be digital or not. IF it costs $5 for milk then it will cost say 0.5 BTC. If milk goes up in price then its not going to cost 0.5BTC anymore will it? Hence inflation will exist.
You need to learn a bit more about currency exchange rates.

If it costs $5 for 1 gallon of milk and the exchange rate is 1 BTC = $10 then the milk can be bought for 0.5 BTC
If milk goes up in price to $7.50 for one gallon, and the exchange rate is 1 BTC = $20 then the milk can be bough for 0.375 BTC

Notice that 0.375 is less than 0.5

So while inflation may exist in currencies where the government keeps printing as much more of it as they'd like, that doesn't necessarily mean that inflation will exist in a currency that cannot increase it's supply beyond a predetermined limit.

That is the whole point of currency being controlled and centralized. Bitcoin is not, yet so how can you freeze funds or anyhitng of that sort with bitcoins? You can't. So its you who seem to be confused.
You are talking about bank accounts, not cash.  If I have a briefcase full of $20 bills, how exactly does the government freeze those funds or anything of that sort.  If bitcoin catches on in widespread mainstream use, I suspect we will find that there will be Bitcoin based banks where you can have an account to store your bitcoin.  Those banks will be able to freeze your bitcoin accounts with them in the same way that current banks can freeze your USD accounts.

I have no clue how to "quote" it so i did it liek this.

That is what the "Quote" button and the "Insert Quote" links are for.

nobbynobbynoob
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October 23, 2012, 09:46:31 PM
 #32

That a private Bitcoin wallet cannot be frozen is a feature, not a bug.

As for avoiding taxes by trading off the books, you can do that with BTC and you can do that with cash too.

As for serious crime and terrorism, you can fund that with BTC and you can fund that with cash too.

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cedivad
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October 23, 2012, 09:48:40 PM
 #33

If people think bitcoins will be worth hundreds of dollars they are dreaming. Why would a virtual currency with only advantages are no inflation and fast transactions (which are offset by irreversible transactions, which is a negative most of the time unless you are dealing in illegal stuff) be worth hundreds of times more than the U.S dollars or other currencies? Be realistic it wont happen.
Fucktard. IF youre going to talk shit to people at least know some shit.

Or better said in this case as, "in your list of only advantages you missed a few":

  • impossible to counterfeit
  • accepted throughout the world
  • has no centralized issuing authority
  • has fungibility
  • has scarcity
  • ease of identifiability
  • ease of divisibility

Furthermore, I can't think of a single merchant who would think that the irreversibility of cash transactions is a bad thing.

In the end it really comes down to mainstream use.  If bitcoin catches on and becomes widely used, it will pretty much have to exceed hundreds of dollars per bitcoin.



Now go ahead and list the disadvantages. They are far more powerful. Terrorist links, money laundering, tax evasion (serious since without taxes you wouldnt have many things that you take for granted everyday,) only 21 million coins possible, not accepted throughout the world only in a very minute part of the population, scams everywhere, extremem difficulty in aquiring the coins themselves.  What you people dont understand about inflation is it will exist anyways with or without bitcoin. Since the cost of goods are going up regardless itll just take more bitcoins to buy the same good. Bitcoins isnt revolutionizing anything its just a cool concept. If it was then bitcoins would be far bigger than it is. Most people have never even heard of bitcoin.
Go back watching your tv, go...

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
Hashfast.org - Wiki for screwed customers
ryann
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October 23, 2012, 09:49:54 PM
 #34

I said every one of the mare wrong except for maybe the 21 million coin ones.
Ah, ok, I see now, everything I said is wrong simply because you said it is wrong.  I apologize for not realizing that things that you say are wrong, are wrong because you say so.  So clearly my opinion that has been backed up by facts and examples is wrong.  I retract what I said, and have now come to the realization that I should agree with you.  Thank you for your helpful explanation and detailed analysis of the situation.

I gave Apple as an example. The Ipod for one is revolutionary it caught on like wildfire. Bitcoin is not an experimental idea. It works the way it is supposed to and it is not changing.
Apple came up with the concept for the iPod in 2000, and hadn't reached 10 million units manufactured until 2005.  Satoshi came up with the idea of Bitcoin in 2008 and we have already reached 10 million units manufactured(mined) in 2012.  Clearly bitcoin is catching on faster than the iPod.

Yawn. I replied to your responses and pointed out why they were wrong. You obviously didnt read the post. Bitcoin isnt a concept. Dont talk about concept. Its already being used and has been for about 4 years I think.  When Ipod was released for use it immediately caught on like wildfire the exact same day.
DannyHamilton
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October 23, 2012, 09:55:45 PM
 #35

Yawn. I replied <snip>
I've really got to stop wasting my time trying to educate trolls.  You are welcome to your opinion.  I'll keep mine.

Wekkel
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October 23, 2012, 10:00:48 PM
 #36

So where was the part already about Bitcoins reaching $1,000 a piece?  Roll Eyes

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ryann
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October 23, 2012, 10:00:52 PM
 #37

Do you realize that you make no sense here? Bitcoin is just a type of currency whether it be digital or not. IF it costs $5 for milk then it will cost say 0.5 BTC. If milk goes up in price then its not going to cost 0.5BTC anymore will it? Hence inflation will exist.
You need to learn a bit more about currency exchange rates.

If it costs $5 for 1 gallon of milk and the exchange rate is 1 BTC = $10 then the milk can be bought for 0.5 BTC
If milk goes up in price to $7.50 for one gallon, and the exchange rate is 1 BTC = $20 then the milk can be bough for 0.375 BTC

Notice that 0.375 is less than 0.5

So while inflation may exist in currencies where the government keeps printing as much more of it as they'd like, that doesn't necessarily mean that inflation will exist in a currency that cannot increase it's supply beyond a predetermined limit.

That is the whole point of currency being controlled and centralized. Bitcoin is not, yet so how can you freeze funds or anyhitng of that sort with bitcoins? You can't. So its you who seem to be confused.
You are talking about bank accounts, not cash.  If I have a briefcase full of $20 bills, how exactly does the government freeze those funds or anything of that sort.  If bitcoin catches on in widespread mainstream use, I suspect we will find that there will be Bitcoin based banks where you can have an account to store your bitcoin.  Those banks will be able to freeze your bitcoin accounts with them in the same way that current banks can freeze your USD accounts.

I have no clue how to "quote" it so i did it liek this.

That is what the "Quote" button and the "Insert Quote" links are for.

You do realize i used an example and not an actual figure? Thought that would be apparent since the numbers arent even close to real time values. Your reponse to the milk part is useless. You basically did nothing except use simple math with differnet numbers. Also I noticed that you said IF bitcoins go to $20 then it would cost this much. lol. Fanboys will be fanboys i guess. Im here because i was curious there isnt real money making potential in bitcoins for 99% of the users. Just like any currency. There is also a substantial amount of risk. If there wasnt then there would be no reward. One guy rips off people for coins and the currency falls close to 70% in 2 days. I know it came back but next time it might not.
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October 23, 2012, 10:02:25 PM
 #38

Yawn. I replied <snip>
I've really got to stop wasting my time trying to educate trolls.  You are welcome to your opinion.  I'll keep mine.

You havent even responded lol because your points have been made irrelevant. So obviosuly I am the troll because you cannot handle a debate in which you are shown to be wrong by someone who isnt a fanboy just a realist
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October 23, 2012, 10:03:18 PM
 #39

So where was the part already about Bitcoins reaching $1,000 a piece?  Roll Eyes

I submitted a theory => https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=116999.0

Not very successful I must admit.

intentionally left blank
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October 24, 2012, 01:41:55 AM
 #40

General revolutionary ideas take a decade or so to catch on and the last 20 or so years are no exception,
That's right, that myspace thing will start catching on by next year when it turns 10 years old!... These are faster times; businesses can be destroyed by not shipping a good product for two quarters in a row. People can go from college dropout to internet millionaire in a year. "Party Rock Anthem" was the summer jam of 2011, now the band is broken up.

If bitcoin quadruples in value does that actually make you any richer or worth robbing? Apple stock has gone from $7 to $600 in ten years, does that mean that Apple stock owners are now getting jacked on streetcorners? You are far more likely to get mugged for your iPhone or laptop than for the bitcoins on them.
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