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Author Topic: [Unavailable] Buy/Sell BTC for GBP Bank transfer. MtGox last 2% fee  (Read 4128 times)
gazwel
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November 01, 2012, 09:07:03 PM
 #21

Got 4BTC today, superfast transaction and I will be using again  Grin
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Pteppic
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November 02, 2012, 10:43:05 AM
 #22

Good morning

Plenty of BTC in stock;

Current Prices as at 10:40am :-

Buy from me at    £6.727 per BTC
Sell to me at       £6.466 per BTC

N.B. Prices on this thread are indicative only. Please PM me for a live quote.

"Remember too on every occasion which leads you to vexation to apply this principle: not that this is a misfortune, but that to bear it nobly is good fortune." - Marcus Aurelius
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November 06, 2012, 09:43:51 AM
 #23

Good morning

I have now traded over 1100BTC in under two weeks.

Still plenty of stock available;

Current Prices as at 9:40am :-

Buy from me at    £6.873 per BTC
Sell to me at       £6.606 per BTC

N.B. Prices on this thread are indicative only.
Please PM me for a live quote.

"Remember too on every occasion which leads you to vexation to apply this principle: not that this is a misfortune, but that to bear it nobly is good fortune." - Marcus Aurelius
Faraday
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November 07, 2012, 12:03:43 AM
 #24

Purchased 100 bitcoins from this guy today. Great service and sent the bitcoins as soon as payment cleared. Thanks!
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November 08, 2012, 10:33:49 AM
 #25

Over 1400BTC traded so far

Good morning

Current Prices as at 10:30am :-

Buy from me at    £6.996 per BTC
Sell to me at       £6.724 per BTC

Transparent pricing. Here is how it works:
MtGox USD last;        10.9290
GBP/USD spot rate;     1.5935
MtGox last in GBP;       6.8585

6.8585 + 2% = 6.996
6.8585 - 2% = 6.724

N.B. Prices on this thread are indicative only. Please PM me for a live quote.

"Remember too on every occasion which leads you to vexation to apply this principle: not that this is a misfortune, but that to bear it nobly is good fortune." - Marcus Aurelius
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November 11, 2012, 09:13:36 PM
 #26

Purchased another 50 btc today. Smooth trade as always.
bombasticbitcoin
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November 16, 2012, 10:19:54 AM
 #27

Bought 15 coins from Pteppic this morning.  Thanks for a quick and easy trade Smiley
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November 19, 2012, 03:47:10 PM
 #28

Just repeating my edit to the OP;

I am afraid that I am currently unable to meet orders due to banking issues

To be fair, it doesn't seem to be a 'because bitcoin' issue. My bank said they were investigating a possible fraudulent transaction, which could be linked to the fact my almost unused personal bank account has had £15k in transactions through it in a few weeks. It should become available again soon, but I am also looking into the possibility of forming a company and getting a business bank account.

"Remember too on every occasion which leads you to vexation to apply this principle: not that this is a misfortune, but that to bear it nobly is good fortune." - Marcus Aurelius
anodyne
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November 23, 2012, 07:23:36 AM
 #29

Sorry to hear about the problems.

I sold about 60 coins last week, and I can recommend this guy when he's back up. Good service all around.

Bitcoins: solid enough to build pyramids.
Pteppic
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November 23, 2012, 02:47:23 PM
 #30

Update

I am afraid it looks like I won't be able to offer this service any more. It appears that I received money from an individual who is flagged by the banks as being 'dodgy'. On receiving the funds, the bank's systems picked it up, reversed the transactions and froze my account (so the dodgy guy gets to keep the money he sent me and the BTC I sent before the transaction was reversed).

From what I can work out, if you trade BTC then sooner or later you will end up receiving money from a flagged account. I guess this is what happened to MtGox and Intersango as well. Once you receive money from a flagged account, the bank is going to shut you down and there is not a lot you can do.

If anyone can think of a business model that gets around this I think a lot of people would like to know about it.

"Remember too on every occasion which leads you to vexation to apply this principle: not that this is a misfortune, but that to bear it nobly is good fortune." - Marcus Aurelius
oblongmeteor
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November 23, 2012, 06:03:18 PM
 #31

Did they reverse all the funds you'd received via bank transfer/faster payments? Isn't bank transfer supposed to be irreversible?
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November 23, 2012, 08:27:48 PM
 #32

It's called KYC and AML.

You're effectively operating an exchange service, which is a key node in the sequence of laundering money.

UK banks are regulated by the FSA which has specific laws that put their head of compliance / head of risk / CFO on the line for criminal charges - including imprisonment - if their service was shown to be used in a money laundering case.

Hence banks won't open an account with you unless they know who you are (KYC - know your client). It's a continuous process, and they operate sophisticated algorithms to keep tabs on unexpected or specifically characterised types of change, so existing businesses moving into Bitcoin are also at risk. There is also a law that forbids the bank from letting anyone know that a particular person or account is being monitored in terms of an AML investigation (so-called 'tipping-off'), with similar criminal consequences for the top management.


So - in the UK - operating as a Bitcoin exchange is very difficult indeed. I'm not yet sure whether it's *solely* the FSA regs, or (tin foil hat on) whether the regs are used as an excuse for extending the UK surveillance-society into all financial transactions (made easier by government ownership of most retail banks here).

As a miner, I looked into setting up a minimal exchange type service when Intersango went down. I concluded at the time that there were too many unknowns - many of them related to FSA regulation, and I wasn't happy with taking the risk of engaging with the FSA myself about Bitcoin, just in case I made any errors or misrepresentations that could have negative consequences in future legislation. Now, after further analysis, I'm more or less of the same opinion:

1. It would be nice if you could ask your bank to inform you of blacklisted accounts so you could refrain from doing business with these 'dodgy' people. However, the FSA rules prohibit banks from divulging any information that could 'tip-off' the person under surveillance. So you won't get ANY help from your bank - they will let the person under surveillance send you money, and then at some undefined point in the future when action is taken, your accounts get frozen too. Bad case scenario - as per the OP, you lose both the BTC and the GBP. Worst case scenario - your entire business will be destroyed as 'collateral damage'. Even if the client under surveillance turned out to be innocent or couldn't be arrested;

2. Bitcoin isn't yet catered for in the FSA rules, whether as a currency, commodity or whatever. So opting to incorporate as a financial institution yourself, under the FSA regs, and running your own KYC / CAAML policies lies in an undefined area. I've implemented a KYC / CAAML policy, business process and database in the past for a global investment bank - so with the necessary updates for changes in the regulatory environment, I'd be capable of implementing a client take-on process for a UK BTC-GBP exchange that satisfies the KYC and AML regs. Now this should theoretically allow you to spot the vast majority of the 'bad guys' - in reality, they wouldn't try to use your service. But this raises questions itself. What effect would this have on potential normal clients? Would this satisfy the big UK retail banks? And would FSA regulation of a small entity be actually possible?

3. Let's say I set up a Bitcoin exchange with FSA-compliant KYC / CAAML policies purely to serve the domestic UK market for Bitcoin - both so that miners like myself can sell the BTC, and users / traders / investors can buy BTC using cheap, nearly-instant bank transfers between UK retail banks. The policies would have to apply to EVERY POTENTIAL CLIENT. Let's say you want to use my exchange. I'd need to demand answers to a load of very invasive questions, get a copy of your passport(s), proof of address(es), basically full identification data. Then I'd have to search a bunch of historical data sources for any independent references to you. Imagine if I trawled Google / Facebook / LinkedIn and proper paid-for media archives for activity linked to your name. Now even if you didn't have anything to hide, can you imagine how many customers I'd end up with?Huh And this doesn't describe the totality of the regs;

4. Let's say that my theoretical 'done by the book' FSA-compliant exchange actually DID gain a load of UK clients, and I rejected any high-risk-score clients, without having to report any suspicious activity - so I never received any GBP payments from 'dodgy' individuals, and my bank left me alone to do business. From a business perspective, the risk *I* would be taking here would actually scare me. That KYC process very briefly outlined above results in a pretty comprehensive database... with full identification and personal details about each customer... that I have to keep current and maintained. I can't do the new client take-on data collection and then destroy the data once I've assessed the potential client. If the client looks dodgy, I have to inform the authorities (...) Regardless, I have to keep the data for 7 years... The value of such a database should be obvious to anyone. I'm a decent hacker but I'm not a dedicated security pro or blackhat - and with the FSA regs, I can't pass the buck if my network gets cracked and a money laundering suspect gets tipped off. I end up facing jail - the AML regs invoke criminal penalties, not civil law. And that's not even mentioning the fact that the database could be used to perform identity theft on every single client of my exchange. Losing *that* data would invoke Data Protection Act penalties, and the clients themselves would be rather angry with me... clearly this wouldn't be a negligence case (this data wouldn't be stored on an internet-facing network), but I'd imagine the infrastructure resources required here would need considerable startup capital, and with the consequences of a network crack being total loss (at the minimum), my risk alarms are already shrieking. I haven't even mentioned losing the Bitcoin accounts! In short, there are many threats to the business and many of them have severe implications, well over the average limited-company 'go bust, start again with new name' small-business failure;

5. It's not even clear if the FSA would regulate a financial firm set up solely to do Bitcoin exchange. That falls into the question of whether the UK banking community has an anti-Bitcoin conspiracy, I guess. If not, the proposed business must be credible: it would hold valuable information and money, so would have to demonstrate appropriate resources to defend against the degree of criminal sophistication expected to target it. The problem here is that the information is prime-time top-grade data - valuable enough to attract 1337 crackers, serious criminal gangs who could both make use of it and also deal with the police reaction. It won't just be the usual metasploit crew wanting to blag the BTC in the hot wallet. More sophisticated groups would find the identity details and UK bank account numbers enough for a fast simultaneous theft from client GBP accounts. But these aren't the big fish. The *comprehensive* personal identity details, passport scans, driving license scans, NI numbers, etc. of *every single client* aren't a lot of use to a small-time PHP hacker looking for credit card numbers - but serious criminal organisations capable of full identity theft want the data. Sell or use... Another problem is that convicting *real* money launderers needs a substantial amount of hard transaction and behaviour data, so banks (and my fantasy FSA-regulated bitcoin exchange) don't freeze the offender's accounts at the first dodgy transaction - they need to collect data *whilst* the offender is 'put on watch'. At this point, the finance firm that *reported* the client as 'potentially dodgy' must NOT tip the client off - so it's in the interests of big-league money laundering operations if they can find out whether they're being watched or not. This would be a silent crack, but if revealed would put the exchange owner on the line. Basically, a small Bitcoin exchange will need bank-grade security policies and technology. Convincing the FSA that a small business (like my fantasy exchange) has the defences in place to be trusted with that sort of data will be incredibly challenging. Even if the system architecture was built by the leetest of the leet (heh), a bloke with a gun wandering into the small office gains remarkable IT skills... Physical security (particularly of the offline, initial KYC search results) would require infrastructure beyond the typical Bitcoin start-up. Capital requirements put this out of my league, sadly, so I've done no further analysis.


Many UK miners (including me) are getting ever more frustrated when every attempt at a UK-based exchange (since Intersango, both the OP and someone else I know got shut down today) is stamped on by the banks. I'm sure the users, traders and investors are too. It could be that the conspiracy theory is true, and the banks are just hiding behind KYC/AML as an excuse.
But the FSA rules are pretty clear. Any Bitcoin exchange falls into the 'money transfer and exchange' category which is in the highest AML risk bracket. In terms of KYC, it's not the exchange operator that the bank needs to know - it's the clients of the exchange that may be laundering money, and they are the risk in the relationship. If the exchange operator isn't willing to run a KYC/AML policy to FSA standards then the bank must consider the exchange and all of its clients in aggregate as the client for KYC purposes. And the bank knows nothing about the exchange's clients - hence the exchange immediately fails KYC and AML policy.

The bank's compliance officer could go to jail over money laundering, and given the low profit any bank will make from a Bitcoin exchange - can you see it from their point of view?

As to your final question - yes, I'm thinking about potential business models, but *avoidance* and/or *side-stepping* the FSA regs within the UK won't work (not for long enough to run a business). Compliance with the rules, and convincing evidence that the risks are contained, is the only long-term approach - assuming you believe Bitcoin is here to stay (as I do). Otherwise, only the banks themselves will be able to offer UK exchange services - in which case fees will be high and they'll do all they can to minimise anonymity.

...so I give in to the rhythm, the click click clack
I'm too wasted to fight back...


BTC: 1A7HvdGGDie3P5nDpiskG8JxXT33Yu6Gct
oblongmeteor
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November 23, 2012, 09:13:12 PM
 #33

Interesting read. Basically my understanding of what you're saying is that if you want to pursue a BTC business - you'll need FSA/regulator approval (and all that it entails) - everything else is just running on borrowed time...

In reality, this stance by the FSA and the banks does not unreasonable. Any other business in the UK that operates in the financial sector has to comply with a significant level of regulation. BTC might not (yet) be regarded as a currency, but it shares too many characteristics with other existing financial instruments to be regarded as exempt. As someone older and wiser once stated on these forums in regards to regulation through the eyes of the regulator; "if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, its a duck".

With regard to account closure; it is unlikely to be a banking conspiracy - institutions of that size don't tend to react quickly to change - see the RIAA and MPAA for current real-world examples. It's interesting to note Bitcoin was named recently in a document circulated by the European Central Bank, so you can be certain it is at least on commercial banking institutions radars - probably in the same way DiVX and MP3's were in the early days for the RIAA and MPAA.

I'd also add that it seems likely BitInstant has only lasted as long as it has because of its coveted FinCen number. Regulation undoubtedly confers benefits as upstream service providers (Banks, Other exchange services (E.g. Dwolla)) are possibly more likely to see any issues arising from fraud to be the endpoint business's responsibility rather than their own... afterall, if you're regulated and you launder money knowingly or otherwise, it's ultimately your responsibility (See HSBC's recent troubles for a real world example).






 
BCB
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November 23, 2012, 09:19:51 PM
 #34

HSBC and it's subsidiaries  have been  laundering billions for Russian Cartels, South American Drug Lords and Middle Eastern state with ties to terrorism for decades.

HSBC will  end up paying a big fines (which they will then pass off on customers and share holders)and a few people may lose jobs,  but it's highly unlikely anyone "in charge" will go to jail.

http://planet.infowars.com/economics/hsbc-chief-quits-in-front-of-us-senate-committee

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/05/us-hsbc-earnings-idUSBRE8A400920121105


The corruption that continues to exist in the global banking system dwarfs the combined  instances of all the  illicit activities currently taking place with bitcoin.

 

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November 23, 2012, 10:40:06 PM
 #35

If the transaction was reversed, wouldn't that be a tip-off though? And wouldn't that let you know who it was too (or at least reduce the field somewhat).

Shame as I was looking forward to doing more. If you feel like going forward with people you've had successful business with before, drop me a PM.

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