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Author Topic: The deflationary problem  (Read 30793 times)
MoonShadow
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May 10, 2013, 07:09:19 PM
 #341

If you feel there is better way to solve the double-spend problem than the block-chain we are all ears ... pub-priv key pairs can not do this as far as I'm aware?

Of course they can.



Not in any way that's provably sound, in the mathmatics proof sense.  Proof-of-work is mathmaticly provable.  This is no small hurdle.

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The problem is figuring out how to moderate it with an efficient decentralized system while also making it sybil-resistant. I claim I have just the thing in my signature.


Oh, wow.  Here we go again.  Havn't read your description completely, but I already have a complaint.  Your description is 'fuzzy', as even you mention that your numbers are "debatable".  Worse still, you start by establishing a two-tier class system (like common versus preferred corporate stocks), wherein ownership of the high class assets are what give you special rights to be a 'supernode'.  While this might be 99% attack resistant (I'm not conceding this, just not contesting it yet) what prevents any one person or group from accumulating those Shareholder coins until they can functionally perform a >1% attack?  On the flip side, what incentive would a SH coin holder have for selling one?  How are they created, and how (or by whom) are those recepients chosen?  God this thing is complex, and it's not even close to a complete protocol.  What prevents a SH coin holder from using that power to disrupt the network itself, by voting against consensus?  I contend that some of these features are impossible on a practical level, and some might be impossible on an implementation level.

Good God!  That's an awful way to make an argument, Etlase2.  Haven't you learned anything during your tour here?

Yeah, what the hell was he thinking trying to actually create something novel (compared all the other shit coming out of the altcoin sub-forum)?
And seriously, starting a discussion without having a perfectly outlined specification? Madness! So glad the bitcoin protocol is perfectly specified.
We all know complex proposals always fail, which is why we have stuck to the horse and buggy for transportation and the good ol' postal service for communication!

Etlase2 and I have a history about this kind of thing.  He proposes BS,and I point out it's flaws.  It drives him nuts.  He's being fuzzy because he is afraid that someone is going to point out flaws.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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May 10, 2013, 07:32:10 PM
 #342

All in all I keep wondering how much of what makes Bitcoin so cool, was the result of the conceived  design (getting the fundamentals right in the protocol) or getting the protocol aspect resolved and by chance, it being so accurately timed and exsiccated it has become the catalyst for new ideas and features and ways of exchanging and storing economic activity among the benefits possibly eliminating the economic problem of inflation and deflation.

I often wonder about that myself... but I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that this sort of thing would happen in any free market. It just happens faster in bitcoin... because it is a free market. Which in turn makes me want to shake statists and banksters.


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May 10, 2013, 07:39:09 PM
 #343

Etlase2 and I have a history about this kind of thing.  He proposes BS,and I point out it's flaws.  It drives him nuts.  He's being fuzzy because he is afraid that someone is going to point out flaws.

Wouldn't we need to take him off ignore before we could do that?

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May 10, 2013, 07:41:23 PM
 #344

Etlase2 and I have a history about this kind of thing.  He proposes BS,and I point out it's flaws.  It drives him nuts.  He's being fuzzy because he is afraid that someone is going to point out flaws.

Wouldn't we need to take him off ignore before we could do that?

Isn't that what the "show" link is for? Wink

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MoonShadow
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May 11, 2013, 12:01:51 AM
 #345

Etlase2 and I have a history about this kind of thing.  He proposes BS,and I point out it's flaws.  It drives him nuts.  He's being fuzzy because he is afraid that someone is going to point out flaws.

Wouldn't we need to take him off ignore before we could do that?

I don't have the luxury of ignoring members.  Those who would most likely earn it, are the same group of people that need be moderated.

I wouldn't agree that Etlase2 falls into that catagory anyway.  He is as free to make his silly proposals as I am to mock them.

And mock them I shall, it's one of the things that makes that "Global Moderator" tag worthwhile.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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May 11, 2013, 12:04:15 AM
 #346



I can think of lots of scenarios where the heat can be effectively utilised, I think it will be an industry unto itself.



I've literally been talking about this kind of thing for years.  Heat trace cabling for public and private infrastructure being a big one.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
marcus_of_augustus
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May 11, 2013, 12:44:08 AM
 #347

Quote
Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on 10 May 2013, 13:31:00
If you feel there is better way to solve the double-spend problem than the block-chain we are all ears ... pub-priv key pairs can not do this as far as I'm aware?

Of course they can. The problem is figuring out how to moderate it with an efficient decentralized system while also making it sybil-resistant. I claim I have just the thing in my signature.

Cool thanks, I'll look into it ... I'm always open to new ideas. Where do we send feedback?

Etlase2
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May 11, 2013, 09:51:08 PM
 #348

Cool thanks, I'll look into it ... I'm always open to new ideas. Where do we send feedback?

The link in my sig is to a thread on these forums. Reply to it with questions/comments.

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May 17, 2013, 09:06:29 AM
 #349

Obviously the most promising alternative to PoW is Ripple's new consensus algorithm.
It is still unclear to me if it leaves PoW obsolete, since PoW seems to be more trust-less and robust.
But I don't see how the consensus can fail, maybe someone sees it when it becomes free software.

In the end is all about following the same rules. If 99% of bitcoin users want to make a change in the rules but 90% of the miners oppose it.
What's the "real" chain?
The one that 99% of people listen to or the one with 9x more hashing power?
I say the one chosen by the users.

Anyway, "alternatives to PoW" seems very distanced from "the deflationary problem", which the austrian dogma says doesn't exist and I've already discussed extensively in the previous thread about this.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
MoonShadow
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May 17, 2013, 09:22:08 PM
 #350

Obviously the most promising alternative to PoW is Ripple's new consensus algorithm.


That's not at all obvious.

Quote


It is still unclear to me if it leaves PoW obsolete, since PoW seems to be more trust-less and robust.



It certainly doesn't leave PoW obsolete, it doesn't even serve the same function.  Ripple is a p2p credit system.  It's not a monetary system at all, and it's recent attempts to develop it's own internal currency are going to hamper it's utility.  They are simply trying to be all things, and it's not going to turn out well.

Quote

But I don't see how the consensus can fail, maybe someone sees it when it becomes free software.


Oh, consensus can certainly fail.  Deadlock for a necessary change is a failure.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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May 18, 2013, 09:55:38 AM
 #351

Obviously the most promising alternative to PoW is Ripple's new consensus algorithm.

That's not at all obvious.

Do you know any other alternative for p2p public accounting?

Quote
It is still unclear to me if it leaves PoW obsolete, since PoW seems to be more trust-less and robust.


It certainly doesn't leave PoW obsolete, it doesn't even serve the same function.  Ripple is a p2p credit system.  It's not a monetary system at all, and it's recent attempts to develop it's own internal currency are going to hamper it's utility.  They are simply trying to be all things, and it's not going to turn out well.

Well, the Ripple concept (Ryan Fugger, 2004) has nothing to do with the new consensus mechanism (Jed McCaleb).
The Ripple concept can be implemented on top of a PoW chain (we want to do that for freicoin, bitcoin could just pull the changes).
The new consensus mechanism doesn't need the p2p credit network. Opencoin could have launched only XRP without Ripple, only a new cryptocurrency.
But the new consensus system requires a host currency to pay the fees which are destroyed because there's no mining.
They couldn't have launched Ripple without XRP if they want to use their new consensus mechanism, period.

Quote
But I don't see how the consensus can fail, maybe someone sees it when it becomes free software.

Oh, consensus can certainly fail.  Deadlock for a necessary change is a failure.

Can you extend on this, please?

EDIT:
Here's my first attempt to implement Ripple on top of bitcoin more than 2 years ago: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3557.0

And this is the last design I'm working in with @maaku: https://docs.google.com/a/monetize.io/document/d/1nnul3oDO5z8sspWBKgTKKSjQ7dWoOqU4Pd8DILLmFN8
Sorry, we have to clean that up, but we're open to collaborate with more people interested in this. Most of the colored coins people didn't wanted to modify the protocol so they're more limited.
When implemented, it will be less controversial to deploy it on Freicoin than Bitcoin, but I think bitcoin will end up something like that (if not the same code) as well.


2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
MoonShadow
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May 18, 2013, 07:49:49 PM
 #352

Obviously the most promising alternative to PoW is Ripple's new consensus algorithm.

That's not at all obvious.

Do you know any other alternative for p2p public accounting?


Doesn't matter what I may or may not know.  It's an objective observation that a consensus algorithm is not an obvious "most promising" anything.  If you hadn't stated it as if it were fact, I wouldn't have objected, but that is not what you did.  Your opinion may or may not be shared, or supportable with objective or subjective arguments, or even considered common knowledge; but it is still an opinion.

I really have no opinion on whether or not ripple's new consensus algo is "the most promising alternative to Pow" or not.  I consider that a silly idea on it's face.  My personal opinion is that comparison is akin to the next most promising alternative to good health, life or freedom; the next most promising alternative is not usually acceptable.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
jtimon
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May 18, 2013, 08:21:44 PM
 #353

Ok, it's not obvious, it is just my opinion.
To me the consensus algorithm is the most promising alternative to PoW for public p2p accounting, mainly because it is the only alternative I know.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
MoonShadow
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May 19, 2013, 04:39:27 AM
 #354

Ok, it's not obvious, it is just my opinion.
To me the consensus algorithm is the most promising alternative to PoW for public p2p accounting, mainly because it is the only alternative I know.


Much better.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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