Zero Knowledge Transactions

[TPTB_need_war]

othe you are just playing politics by making selective quotes. He made that reply after I wrote what you are quoting from me. Any one can go read that entire thread and see how he was being condescending to me and then in the quote you just made he is being condescending again. Instead of answering my question he leaves it as a wild goose chase into his deeper math in Lemmas and such. He is just being snobbish again. He could have simply answered the question directly the first time instead of trying to purposely frame me up so he could be snobbish. I am not going to dig too much into his papers because they are not finished. He can try to explain his paper to a layman so they can trust it (I doubt it!). Mine will be so explained.

I wrote in my Ion project thread while I was making those posts in his Reddit thread comments such as:

I think finally we got to the bottom of the flaw in the Monero cryptographer's attempt at what I had invented:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3oi16k/ring_ct_for_monero_a_work_in_progress_comments/cw1knrw

In my haste I had an error in identifying where the flaw lies, even though I knew from my prior efforts that there must be a flaw because something crucial appears to be missing in that white paper. I might still be wrong. Await the reply of the author of the white paper.

My statement below was entirely accurate based on the white paper he had published at the time I wrote this statement:

This design is totally broken. Fuhgeddaboudit.

Then after that he reveals hidden math that he was withholding from us. Sneaky.

Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Yeah it would be nice if all parties did. Readers I am sure can read the Reddit thread and see his attitude towards me throughout.

[1715016644]

1715016644

[wpalczynski]

othe you are just playing politics by making selective quotes. He made that reply after I wrote what you are quoting from me. Any one can go read that entire thread and see how he was being condescending to me and then in the quote you just made he is being condescending again. Instead of answering my question he leaves it as a wild goose chase into his deeper math in Lemmas and such. He is just being snobbish again. He could have simply answered the question directly the first time instead of trying to purposely frame me up so he could be snobbish. I am not going to dig too much into his papers because they are not finished. He can try to explain his paper to a layman so they can trust it (I doubt it!). Mine will be so explained.

I wrote in my Ion project thread while I was making those posts in his Reddit thread comments such as:

I think finally we got to the bottom of the flaw in the Monero cryptographer's attempt at what I had invented:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3oi16k/ring_ct_for_monero_a_work_in_progress_comments/cw1knrw

In my haste I had an error in identifying where the flaw lies, even though I knew from my prior efforts that there must be a flaw because something crucial appears to be missing in that white paper. I might still be wrong. Await the reply of the author of the white paper.

My statement below was entirely accurate based on the white paper he had published at the time I wrote this statement:

This design is totally broken. Fuhgeddaboudit.

Then after that he reveals hidden math that he was withholding from us. Sneaky.

Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Yeah it would be nice if all parties did. Readers I am sure can read the Reddit thread and see his attitude towards me throughout.

It would be so much easier for everyone if you just went on reddit and outlined what he did not address.

Cheers.

[TPTB_need_war]

He is inventing a new type of signature that has probabilistic assumptions (plus perhaps complex external factors which impact probabilities)

Actually in Lemma 5, I reduce the security proofs of the MG signatures to the proofs of the LWW signatures which are old news. If he had read many crypto papers, he would see that every proof related to digital signatures is given in terms of probabilistic algorithms - this is because you can't prove someone will never just guess your private key (even though in a large enough keyspace like the ed25519 group this is very improbable).

He can explain his reduction to a layman. And make sure all of us can understand it. My crypto paper can be so explained.

As for his condescending comment about all digital signatures being probabilistic (of course I know this! there he goes again with nonsense assumptions that I don't know even most basic things), I specifically wrote in one of my comments which you may not have quoted for him, that the probabilistic assumptions appear to be more complex and unvetted as compared to the crypto I employed.

If he can show how MG is so well formed in simple and easy to understand terms, then he can be so convincing. As of yet, I don't see it.

[TPTB_need_war]

It would be so much easier for everyone if you just went on reddit and outlined what he did not address.

Cheers.

What incentive do I have to talk with someone who totally disrespects me and is condescending to me even after he wrote he wouldn't do that again.

I don't know how participating in smear campaign against me is easier for everyone.

[coins101]

.....

I remember a few of your last posts as Anonymit. I haven't taken the time to look back at your post history, but from memory, you got to a position where you threw in the towel because ultimately the internet discussions turned negative and it was probably stressing you out to the point of contributing to any health issues.

Looks like you're walking yourself back into the same path as before.

You clearly have technical contributions that some people listen to. I don't know the full history to judge if there is others work being claimed as new or novel to you, but contributions are contributions.

If I were you, I'd look into kicking off a new project and seeing where it takes you. You might be surprised to find people wanting to provide all types of support to a project that brings something new and improves on what is already out there. You could probably launch a project in under a week or two. I guarantee that you'll be spending 10x this much time chasing your tail around here.

[wpalczynski]

It would be so much easier for everyone if you just went on reddit and outlined what he did not address.

Cheers.

What incentive do I have to talk with someone who totally disrespects me and is condescending to me even after he wrote he wouldn't do that again.

I don't know how participating in smear campaign against me is easier for everyone.

Satisfaction of proving his design is faulty would be the biggest incentive.  You should look at it as responding to the community rather than just to him.  Both of you guys were rude and condescending to each other, just forget it and let it be.

[TPTB_need_war]

You could probably launch a project in under a week or two. I guarantee that you'll be spending 10x this much time chasing your tail around here.

I like your idea. So true that we lose so much time to bickering. So exhausting.

Bottom line is Shen may have a solution too, but his apparently is under development and thus it is difficult to fully analyze what is still changing and perhaps not even well vetted. What if I expend a lot of time analyzing that more than I did, and then later they find a bug and declare it all invalid. So all my time was wasted. That happens with white papers. Might even happen to mine once submitted to the public.

[TPTB_need_war]

Satisfaction of proving his design is faulty would be the biggest incentive.

I already did that. It can't be denied:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3oi16k/ring_ct_for_monero_a_work_in_progress_comments/cw3b936

You should look at it as responding to the community rather than just to him.  Both of you guys were rude and condescending to each other, just forget it and let it be.

And I saw your rude comment there where I just posted as linked above. Sigh.

[wpalczynski]

Satisfaction of proving his design is faulty would be the biggest incentive.

I already did that. It can't be denied:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3oi16k/ring_ct_for_monero_a_work_in_progress_comments/cw3b936

You should look at it as responding to the community rather than just to him.  Both of you guys were rude and condescending to each other, just forget it and let it be.

And I saw your rude comment there where I just posted as linked above. Sigh.

I don't think it was rude.  You make firm statements about it being broken and then never follow up.  How do you expect people to react?

You don't say: maybe its broken, I dont understand how this could work, your paper is missing x..

You authoritatively and firmly state its broken.  I have seen how you react on the forum when roles are reversed.  I really don't see how you can consider what I wrote rude.

[coins101]

You could probably launch a project in under a week or two. I guarantee that you'll be spending 10x this much time chasing your tail around here.

I like your idea. So true that we lose so much time to bickering. So exhausting.

Bottom line is Shen may have a solution too, but his apparently is under development and thus it is difficult to fully analyze what is still changing and perhaps not even well vetted. What if I expend a lot of time analyzing that more than I did, and then later they find a bug and declare it all invalid. So all my time was wasted. That happens with white papers. Might even happen to mine once submitted to the public.

Well, extend that logic to your proposition to various projects.

You are suggesting that Monero or some other project accepts your white paper and implements a change.

Well, now:

1. You've given others a reason to not buy your ideas.....what if xyz comes up with something or there is a bug.
2. If xyz project should consider a change, then your project could also come up with a change, a hard fork, if improvements need to be made.

On a commercial level, you claim to have coding skills that have created world class projects. I have no reason to doubt your claim, so I will accept what you say, as I have done in the past, until it is proved otherwise.

So you're various skills make you, on paper, a safer project to back - even if you have to make changes as you go. And even if you kick things off and then take a higher level technical advisory role as the project gathers momentum and others begin to contribute.

edit

There are various projects out there that you could fork mid flight and get going forcing others to join your fork, to prove your point. Or you could launch from scratch, again with a fork.

[TPTB_need_war]

Okay I replied to Shen:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/3oi16k/ring_ct_for_monero_a_work_in_progress_comments/cw3c8dw

I thought of a new potential flaw due to conflating inputs and outputs.

[kazuki49]

I trust (as far as my feelings, the market and the brutal test of time can assure) Shen, the Monero team and gmaxwell but from my readings it seems TPTB_need_war may have a breakthrough of some kind in the area of math and anonymization (of quanties), what is exactly what Shen and the Monero team is researching, if he and knowledged parts of the Monero team could dialogue in secret (because he doesn't want to reveal any part of his research he says the Monero team is "copying" but has no way to find out), and if it is found he has an useful, unprecendented method that can translate into code for betterment of the Monero network, I can see a crowdfunding motion having success or he eventually takes the highest bidder.

I'd really like to receive about $75,000 total for the work already done plus assisting on implementation. If I am not mistaken, the guy who was selected to optimize Monero's mining algorithm pocketed an alleged $150,000 worth of coins before releasing the optimization generally.

I know this is not true and you make it sound everyone involved in coding for Monero is making rivers of money which is unrealistic as the core devs are literally making most for free if not in the red already (no IPO, no premine), and most coders working and submitting on github at the moment were funded by the community.

[TPTB_need_war]

I don't think it was rude.  You make firm statements about it being broken and then never follow up.  How do you expect people to react?

You don't say: maybe its broken, I dont understand how this could work, your paper is missing x..

You authoritatively and firmly state its broken.  I have seen how you react on the forum when roles are reversed.  I really don't see how you can consider what I wrote rude.

How can you release a white paper on one-time ring signatures hiding values, and then not address the fact that your design as presented allows duplicate signatures of the one-time key that can't be detected.

That is lack of respect for or awareness about people who expend their precious time to read your paper.

On top of that he was condescending before we got to the point of me stating that fact.

I honestly didn't fathom that he might have a solution for the one-time key (the "MG" sig) that he would not have published in his paper. Who would? You read a white paper expecting all the pivotal elements to be covered. That is the point of a white paper.

The signature he showed in his 0.1 paper was broken. Now he changes to an "MG" sig. Moving the goal posts as if white papers should be a ball kicking sport.

Bottom line is he should have taken the time to finish his white paper before announcing it on Reddit. I didn't go publishing my white papers in half-finished state, thus wasting the time of my readers.

The time of my readers gets wasted by all the bickering and explanation of bickering.

Any way, I understand your point that we just want to get to the truth as efficiently as possible. And I do accept that your comment was a reflection of your perspective wherein you thought I was attacking him. I was defending myself from his condescending and unwillingness to help me learn efficiently what he had invented. I asked him several times to tell me where in his paper he was associating the 'a' with the 'Pi' and I never did get a straight answer from him. I had to go back to his paper and clarify it. Why ask.

I think what we have here is a guy (Shen) who is better at math than at human interaction. And then myself getting more easily ticked off because I am so tired of everything (illness, bickering, wasting time, losing massive hours where I should have been producing income).

Frustration seems to run together at the same time.

Any way, I would like to efficiently understand the differences in our algorithms, but Shen will need to make the math more intelligible for people who don't have time to build the domain knowledge on the symbolism he is employing. Some english text can go a long way to explaining a few things and make it much, much easier for people to make the little leaps in symbolism to full understanding.

If he only wants a few math heads to understand it, then he can leave it as now. It is his choice of priorities and I will react accordingly. I don't have unlimited time.

[jwinterm]

...
That is lack of respect for or awareness about people who expend their precious time to read your paper.
...
I honestly didn't fathom that he might have a solution for the one-time key (the "MG" sig) that he would not have published in his paper. Who would? You read a white paper expecting all the pivotal elements to be covered. That is the point of a white paper.
...
I didn't go publishing my white papers in half-finished state, thus wasting the time of my readers.

You can choose what to spend your time on. No one forced you to read the paper or publicly comment on it.

Maybe in cryptoland, but in the real world a white paper is typically a 1-2 page document outlining the essential ideas of something, not the minutiae of implementation.

Yes, you did go publishing your paper in a half-finished state. It's the first post in this thread.

[wpalczynski]

I don't think it was rude.  You make firm statements about it being broken and then never follow up.  How do you expect people to react?

You don't say: maybe its broken, I dont understand how this could work, your paper is missing x..

You authoritatively and firmly state its broken.  I have seen how you react on the forum when roles are reversed.  I really don't see how you can consider what I wrote rude.

How can you release a white paper on one-time ring signatures hiding values, and then not address the fact that your design as presented allows duplicate signatures of the one-time key that can't be detected.

That is lack of respect for or awareness about people who expend their precious time to read your paper.

On top of that he was condescending before we got to the point of me stating that fact.

I honestly didn't fathom that he might have a solution for the one-time key (the "MG" sig) that he would not have published in his paper. Who would? You read a white paper expecting all the pivotal elements to be covered. That is the point of a white paper.

The signature he showed in his 0.1 paper was broken. Now he changes to an "MG" sig. Moving the goal posts as if white papers should be a ball kicking sport.

Bottom line is he should have taken the time to finish his white paper before announcing it on Reddit. I didn't go publishing my white papers in half-finished state, thus wasting the time of my readers.

The time of my readers gets wasted by all the bickering and explanation of bickering.

Any way, I understand your point that we just want to get to the truth as efficiently as possible. And I do accept that your comment was a reflection of your perspective wherein you thought I was attacking him. I was defending myself from his condescending and unwillingness to help me learn efficiently what he had invented. I asked him several times to tell me where in his paper he was associating the 'a' with the 'Pi' and I never did get a straight answer from him. I had to go back to his paper and clarify it. Why ask.

I think what we have here is a guy (Shen) who is better at math than at human interaction. And then myself getting more easily ticked off because I am so tired of everything (illness, bickering, wasting time, losing massive hours where I should have been producing income).

Frustration seems to run together at the same time.

Any way, I would like to efficiently understand the differences in our algorithms, but Shen will need to make the math more intelligible for people who don't have time to build the domain knowledge on the symbolism he is employing. Some english text can go a long way to explaining a few things and make it much, much easier for people to make the little leaps in symbolism to full understanding.

If he only wants a few math heads to understand it, then he can leave it as now. It is his choice of priorities and I will react accordingly. I don't have unlimited time.

Fair enough.  If you ask concise questions about a certain piece of the solution the onus is on him to answer.  Try not to take any of this shit personally.  Even if someone is condescending do you gain anything by responding in the same manner?  You gain a lot more by pushing forward with your point in a calm, lucid and civilized manner.

[othe]

I don't think it was rude.  You make firm statements about it being broken and then never follow up.  How do you expect people to react?

You don't say: maybe its broken, I dont understand how this could work, your paper is missing x..

You authoritatively and firmly state its broken.  I have seen how you react on the forum when roles are reversed.  I really don't see how you can consider what I wrote rude.

How can you release a white paper on one-time ring signatures hiding values, and then not address the fact that your design as presented allows duplicate signatures of the one-time key that can't be detected.

That is lack of respect for or awareness about people who expend their precious time to read your paper.

On top of that he was condescending before we got to the point of me stating that fact.

I honestly didn't fathom that he might have a solution for the one-time key (the "MG" sig) that he would not have published in his paper. Who would? You read a white paper expecting all the pivotal elements to be covered. That is the point of a white paper.

The signature he showed in his 0.1 paper was broken. Now he changes to an "MG" sig. Moving the goal posts as if white papers should be a ball kicking sport.

Bottom line is he should have taken the time to finish his white paper before announcing it on Reddit. I didn't go publishing my white papers in half-finished state, thus wasting the time of my readers.

The time of my readers gets wasted by all the bickering and explanation of bickering.

Any way, I understand your point that we just want to get to the truth as efficiently as possible. And I do accept that your comment was a reflection of your perspective wherein you thought I was attacking him. I was defending myself from his condescending and unwillingness to help me learn efficiently what he had invented. I asked him several times to tell me where in his paper he was associating the 'a' with the 'Pi' and I never did get a straight answer from him. I had to go back to his paper and clarify it. Why ask.

I think what we have here is a guy (Shen) who is better at math than at human interaction. And then myself getting more easily ticked off because I am so tired of everything (illness, bickering, wasting time, losing massive hours where I should have been producing income).

Frustration seems to run together at the same time.

Any way, I would like to efficiently understand the differences in our algorithms, but Shen will need to make the math more intelligible for people who don't have time to build the domain knowledge on the symbolism he is employing. Some english text can go a long way to explaining a few things and make it much, much easier for people to make the little leaps in symbolism to full understanding.

If he only wants a few math heads to understand it, then he can leave it as now. It is his choice of priorities and I will react accordingly. I don't have unlimited time.

to be fair the reddit title is  "Ring CT for monero: A work in progress, comments welcome"

We open source everything, even uncompleted work. He asked for comments and he didn´t say its finished.

I think what we have here is a guy (Shen) who is better at math than at human interaction

He´s good at communcation, i and others talk to him and together multiple times per week.

The signature he showed in his 0.1 paper was broken. Now he changes to an "MG" sig. Moving the goal posts as if white papers should be a ball kicking sport.

No it wasn´t really changed, we had no name for it and made up something. Mokume-gane is the japanese metalworking prodedure they used to make layered metal for samurai swords etc.
There were empty chapters and there are still 2 (i think, too lazy to look now) empty chapters.

He wrote on reddit he has everything written down on pen and papers

NobleSir 3 Punkte vor 2 Tagen
I think there is a good chance (assuming the developers / community want it included in the protocol)- I was more referring to the fact that there are a lot of empty sections in the paper- things I have on pen / paper but haven't had the time to type yet - in addition the basic "completed" research paper stuff like an intro / definitions / citations etc. needs to be added.

[letsplayagame]

The topic of this thread is very interesting to anyone who cares about cryptography and Zero Knowledge Transactions, but all the personal attacks are not.

OP you seem very knowledgeable as do some others participating or cited in this thread.  If fundraising is your goal then you might want to change your tone. I see condescension from both sides.

[wpalczynski]

It is not a free market to use political gimicks to try to make someone look like they are not sincere about wanting to cure their illness as a way to cut off the market function that the sincere person is trying to propose. It was basically saying to me "accept communism or show everyone you aren't really sick".

That wasn't my intention at all.

I'm quite certain you are sick, and moreover, I think I know what's wrong with you. That was kinda my point. If you've definitely ruled out Lyme disease and haven't taken any cholesterol lowering medication within the past three years, then I think I can help.

In so far as the whitepaper is concerned, yeah, it has the intrigue of Tarantino's glowing suitcase, naturally. I'd concur that I'd do a trade for that. Of the oft times I've been ill over the past 38 years there have been many occasions I would glady sell my soul for the cure. So that was my perspective.

But I don't really see what difference it makes what I do with the whitepaper once traded. Whether I give it away on street corners, or keep it to myself.... who cares?

But like I said, I genuinely am more intrigued about the variables of your illness. I only have a marginal interest in the paper.

To be honest: If it was down to me I would simply join forces with smooth and adapt your technology for use with Aeon. Given current low prices you could get significant returns from your tech without giving away development control. To me that's a sensible solution which I think you'd be happy with.

Fuck it, if you did that I'd help you with your illness for free.

If you really think you know whats wrong with him I think you should tell him with no strings attached.  I think what happens on these forums should be separate from the health of a person in real life.

Just my two cents.

I understand that his attitude in he past might have left a bad taste in some peoples mouths but its a persons health we are talking about.

I'm not saying its unfair in any way to ask for something in return, its just the thoughts of the tree huger, humanitarian in me.

[wpalczynski]

The topic of this thread is very interesting to anyone who cares about cryptography and Zero Knowledge Transactions, but all the personal attacks are not.

OP you seem very knowledgeable as do some others participating or cited in this thread.  If fundraising is your goal then you might want to change your tone. I see condescension from both sides.

Its a viscous cycle when it gets started and it takes a person with thick skin to turn the other cheek.

[TPTB_need_war]

I trust (as far as my feelings, the market and the brutal test of time can assure) Shen, the Monero team and gmaxwell but from my readings it seems TPTB_need_war may have a breakthrough of some kind in the area of math and anonymization (of quanties), what is exactly what Shen and the Monero team is researching, if he and knowledged parts of the Monero team could dialogue in secret (because he doesn't want to reveal any part of his research he says the Monero team is "copying" but has no way to find out), and if it is found he has an useful, unprecendented method that can translate into code for betterment of the Monero network, I can see a crowdfunding motion having success or he eventually takes the highest bidder.

I'd really like to receive about $75,000 total for the work already done plus assisting on implementation. If I am not mistaken, the guy who was selected to optimize Monero's mining algorithm pocketed an alleged $150,000 worth of coins before releasing the optimization generally.

I know this is not true and you make it sound everyone involved in coding for Monero is making rivers of money which is unrealistic as the core devs are literally making most for free if not in the red already (no IPO, no premine), and most coders working and submitting on github at the moment were funded by the community.

I have not thought Shen, Monero team, and gmaxwell were copying my work. I did think for a brief moment perhaps someone had tipped them off that I had claimed the same feature and maybe that motivated them to attempt the same, but I never thought they literally copied my work since no one else had seen it so that was impossible (unless someone hacked my computer which I don't think is the case).

Their algorithm is significantly different than mine, so it is also quite obvious we independently developed our solutions.

I believe now based on new information from Shen that it is likely he has a solution to the same problem set as I do. But I do believe his may be less general, e.g. the open question about whether he can merge multiple inputs from different signers in same transaction (I am nearly certain he can not but awaiting his reply). Also so far I view his as more mathematically complex to explain and trust. But perhaps he can improve that with more english elucidation in his paper. He may not wish to do that, if he prefers the typical "math snob" style of academic papers (where the reader is burdened with acquiring the domain knowledge rather than it being explained) which is fine for academically targeted white papers. Our market is crypto and the users need to trust and understand tech. One of my talents is explaining complex tech in simple ways. My white paper could use some more refinement on this aspect of explanation to the laymen, yet I am very sure I can do it.

I do believe I have something of value even if Shen is able to resolve every flaw I might find, because there is more than one way to skin a cat and mine is I think simpler to understand. Also mine should be more generally useful, because mine can sign the transaction even to 0 outputs, e.g. a burn transaction or signing to a future of outputs that will be decided later. And there are probably other scenarios where not conflating the inputs and the outputs in the signature has some use case that Shen's can't do (other than the one I already asked him about).

Separation-of-concerns is a fundamental design concept I follow. Conflation violates this and invariably leads to corner cases.

He may be awesome at math, but I have a lot of experience with design patterns.

So in end, I expect my invention to be worth $millions in the market. The question is how to best capture some of that future value now.

Well I am saddened to read that Monero devs are in poverty. I want to read that we are expanding the crypto markets and all of us are getting wealthy while improving the world.

Hopefully we can lead in that direction. I am trying to be healthy so I can do more coding less talking. I am not really happy about talking here. But I need to make a wise decision about what to do with my anonymity algorithm at this juncture given the recent competitive developments.