I am pretty confident we are the new wealthy elite, gentlemen.

[MoonShadow]

No need to discuss. I used to be a libertarian so I know what you mean. I just slowly realized as I got older that it is as utopian as the communist societies.

Then you are regressing, not maturing.

Taxes are actually the simplest and easiest way to fund some things and democratic decisions are the easiest, and in some ways, fair way to decide how to distribute the taxes.

So far...

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[Arriemoller]

Yes, so far. When a better way is introduced I will embrace it.

Do you really think that there will ever be a totally libertarian society? Of course not, no thinking person believes that, thats why it is utopian. You can however by working politicaly and with different civil activities try to change the current society.
And in a libertarian society those who want to pay taxes are free to do so, and I choose to pay.

[MoonShadow]

Yes, so far. When a better way is introduced I will embrace it.

Do you really think that there will ever be a totally libertarian society? Of course not, no thinking person believes that, thats why it is utopian. You can however by working politicaly and with different civil activities try to change the current society.
And in a libertarian society those who want to pay taxes are free to do so, and I choose to pay.

No, sir.  That is why it's realistic.  Even libertarians regard a libertarian society on a sliding scale, not an absolute.  That is why striving towards the goal would, and should, become harder with successes.  Unlike socialism, however, an imperfect liberty isn't a broken society.  An imperfect socialism simply requires that a iron-fisted government 'correct' the imperfections with force.  This is what we saw happen during the last century, all the while the Politburo complained that the problems the people saw was a result of an imperfect socialism, and that more work need be done.  Libertarianism, however, is fundamentally different.  A libertarian minded society can tolerate a socialist sub-culture, even while most people consider it a mistake.  A socialist minded society cannot tolerate a libertarian sub-culture, because that is the very embodiment of the 'imperfect socialsim' that they must eradicate.  Socialism cannot exist, because it requires forcing some minority to participate against their own desires and/or nature.  Libertarianism doesn't care what your personal desires or nature is, if you don't like liberty, you are (ironicly) free to dispose of it however you like.  No one is going to bother to 'force' you to live free.  However, that absolute libertarian society that you speak off is at the end of the long tail of the political bell curve.  We know that we can never get there, but that doesn't imply that doing our best isn't worthwhile; in part because an imperfect liberty is still a good place to live in the meantime.

[forzendiablo]

thsi wont happen fo a few more years for sure.

[Arriemoller]

Yes, so far. When a better way is introduced I will embrace it.

Do you really think that there will ever be a totally libertarian society? Of course not, no thinking person believes that, thats why it is utopian. You can however by working politicaly and with different civil activities try to change the current society.
And in a libertarian society those who want to pay taxes are free to do so, and I choose to pay.

No, sir.  That is why it's realistic.  Even libertarians regard a libertarian society on a sliding scale, not an absolute.  That is why striving towards the goal would, and should, become harder with successes.  Unlike socialism, however, an imperfect liberty isn't a broken society.  An imperfect socialism simply requires that a iron-fisted government 'correct' the imperfections with force.  This is what we saw happen during the last century, all the while the Politburo complained that the problems the people saw was a result of an imperfect socialism, and that more work need be done.  Libertarianism, however, is fundamentally different.  A libertarian minded society can tolerate a socialist sub-culture, even while most people consider it a mistake.  A socialist minded society cannot tolerate a libertarian sub-culture, because that is the very embodiment of the 'imperfect socialsim' that they must eradicate.  Socialism cannot exist, because it requires forcing some minority to participate against their own desires and/or nature.  Libertarianism doesn't care what your personal desires or nature is, if you don't like liberty, you are (ironicly) free to dispose of it however you like.  No one is going to bother to 'force' you to live free.  However, that absolute libertarian society that you speak off is at the end of the long tail of the political bell curve.  We know that we can never get there, but that doesn't imply that doing our best isn't worthwhile; in part because an imperfect liberty is still a good place to live in the meantime.

Bur, sir, that is exactly what I am saying and why I call it utopian.
I wholeheartedly agree with all the rest of your text.

[MoonShadow]

Yes, so far. When a better way is introduced I will embrace it.

You're inside it.  The lifeblood of any civilization is it's trade currency.  Up until Bitcoin, a dependable trade currency pretty much required the intervention into the monetary policy by the soveign, if only to garrantee that gold was indeed gold if it had his face on it.  This is no longer neccessary.  The transaction fees you may or may not choose to pay for are this society's voluntary taxation.  Nothing more is 'required' of you here.

And in a libertarian society those who want to pay taxes are free to do so, and I choose to pay.

Very well.  But by doing so, you also choose to accept the culpablity of the wrongs persecuted in your name, because you can't really separate the taxes that you pay for paving roads from those use to kill brown people that don't speak English.  You can imagine that your taxes are paying for education of inner city kids all you like, but someone is paying to catch, prosecute and incarcerate addicts for victimless crimes against the state.  I pay taxes as well, but I'm not under any illusions that anything more than a very small minority of it is used to pay for anything I would volutarily contribute towards.  My taxes are 'protection' money, from the greatest protection racket around, and there is nothing noble about it at all.

[Arriemoller]

thsi wont happen fo a few more years for sure.

You think? 

[MoonShadow]

Yes, so far. When a better way is introduced I will embrace it.

Do you really think that there will ever be a totally libertarian society? Of course not, no thinking person believes that, thats why it is utopian. You can however by working politicaly and with different civil activities try to change the current society.
And in a libertarian society those who want to pay taxes are free to do so, and I choose to pay.

No, sir.  That is why it's realistic.  Even libertarians regard a libertarian society on a sliding scale, not an absolute.  That is why striving towards the goal would, and should, become harder with successes.  Unlike socialism, however, an imperfect liberty isn't a broken society.  An imperfect socialism simply requires that a iron-fisted government 'correct' the imperfections with force.  This is what we saw happen during the last century, all the while the Politburo complained that the problems the people saw was a result of an imperfect socialism, and that more work need be done.  Libertarianism, however, is fundamentally different.  A libertarian minded society can tolerate a socialist sub-culture, even while most people consider it a mistake.  A socialist minded society cannot tolerate a libertarian sub-culture, because that is the very embodiment of the 'imperfect socialsim' that they must eradicate.  Socialism cannot exist, because it requires forcing some minority to participate against their own desires and/or nature.  Libertarianism doesn't care what your personal desires or nature is, if you don't like liberty, you are (ironicly) free to dispose of it however you like.  No one is going to bother to 'force' you to live free.  However, that absolute libertarian society that you speak off is at the end of the long tail of the political bell curve.  We know that we can never get there, but that doesn't imply that doing our best isn't worthwhile; in part because an imperfect liberty is still a good place to live in the meantime.

Bur, sir, that is exactly what I am saying and why I call it utopian.
I wholeheartedly agree with all the rest of your text.

Utopians don't see the impossibility of the end goal, nor the value in a partial victory.

[Arriemoller]

Yes, so far. When a better way is introduced I will embrace it.

You're inside it.  The lifeblood of any civilization is it's trade currency.  Up until Bitcoin, a dependable trade currency pretty much required the intervention into the monetary policy by the soveign, if only to garrantee that gold was indeed gold if it had his face on it.  This is no longer neccessary.  The transaction fees you may or may not choose to pay for are this society's voluntary taxation.  Nothing more is 'required' of you here.

And in a libertarian society those who want to pay taxes are free to do so, and I choose to pay.

Very well.  But by doing so, you also choose to accept the culpablity of the wrongs persecuted in your name, because you can't really separate the taxes that you pay for paving roads from those use to kill brown people that don't speak English.  You can imagine that your taxes are paying for education of inner city kids all you like, but someone is paying to catch, prosecute and incarcerate addicts for victimless crimes against the state.  I pay taxes as well, but I'm not under any illusions that anything more than a very small minority of it is used to pay for anything I would volutarily contribute towards.  My taxes are 'protection' money, from the greatest protection racket around, and there is nothing noble about it at all.

You are right in that, and I never said it was noble, just a convenient way of collecting funds for common utilities. But I have chosen to try to change from within, working politically and voluntarily serving in the armed forces on my spare time rather than refusing to pay taxes..

[Anon136]

No need to discuss. I used to be a libertarian so I know what you mean. I just slowly realized as I got older that it is as utopian as the communist societies.
Taxes are actually the simplest and easiest way to fund some things and democratic decisions are the easiest, and in some ways, fair way to decide how to distribute the taxes.
Having said that, I don't approve of the high taxes in some countrys.

if slavery was the simplest and easiest way of getting cotton would you support it?

[Arriemoller]

No, unless the slaves voluntarily sold themselves to slavedom, and even then I would have to consider some back door out of slavery.
I know where you are going, as I stated earlier, I have been there myself. But I can't see any practical way of doing it right now.

[MoonShadow]

But I have chosen to try to change from within, working politically and voluntarily serving in the armed forces on my spare time rather than refusing to pay taxes..

Wait, what?  Are you serving in the National Guard and donating your service pay to the Iraqi Orphans' Fund or what?

[MoonShadow]

No, unless the slaves voluntarily sold themselves to slavedom,

I'm sure that you have to realize on an intellectual level that this statement is impossible.  Even the S&M sex slaves aren't really slaves, they're just play-acting.  You cannot 'sell yourself' beyond a limited term and under very limited conditions, thus nothing like chattel slavery at all.  Even those same S&M sex slaves have that 'safe word' that makes it all stop.

[Arriemoller]

No I am serving as a lieutenant in the Royal Swedish Marines Home Guard.
And as a board member of the local chapter of the Swedish Federation for Voluntary Defence Education and Training.
And we have no troops nor have we had any in Iraq.

[Arriemoller]

No, unless the slaves voluntarily sold themselves to slavedom,

I'm sure that you have to realize on an intellectual level that this statement is impossible.  Even the S&M sex slaves aren't really slaves, they're just play-acting.  You cannot 'sell yourself' beyond a limited term and under very limited conditions, thus nothing like chattel slavery at all.  Even those same S&M sex slaves have that 'safe word' that makes it all stop.

Yes I know, By selling yourself as a slave you give up the freedom that you as a libertarian claim cannot be given up, and so on, hence the back door, which actually just makes it a long term employment.
Selling yourself to slavery and selling your own organs is usually some of the most debated questions in the libertarian community.

[MoonShadow]

No I am serving as a lieutenant in the Royal Swedish Marines Home Guard.
And as a board member of the local chapter of the Swedish Federation for Voluntary Defence Education and Training.
And we have no troops nor have we had any in Iraq.

Ah, a state sanctioned militia.  That makes sense, actually.

[testerx]

So am I the only one who sold his bitcoins for like $12 each because he was a broke med student?  Sigh.  To have been here this long and not be one of the wealthy elite is depressing. 

[Arriemoller]

No I am serving as a lieutenant in the Royal Swedish Marines Home Guard.
And as a board member of the local chapter of the Swedish Federation for Voluntary Defence Education and Training.
And we have no troops nor have we had any in Iraq.

Ah, a state sanctioned militia.  That makes sense, actually.

Exactly, I'm glad you got it.

[Anon136]

No, unless the slaves voluntarily sold themselves to slavedom, and even then I would have to consider some back door out of slavery.
I know where you are going, as I stated earlier, I have been there myself. But I can't see any practical way of doing it right now.

I dont think any anarchists are advocating going down into the basement of the whitehouse and flipping some giant frankensteinian on/off switch.

This is a false dilemma you are providing us with. Just because it isnt feasible to end statism right NOW within the next 10 seconds, doesn't mean that one must support the idea that one group of people should have the right to forcibly confiscate the property of another group.

[Arriemoller]

No, unless the slaves voluntarily sold themselves to slavedom, and even then I would have to consider some back door out of slavery.
I know where you are going, as I stated earlier, I have been there myself. But I can't see any practical way of doing it right now.

I dont think any anarchists are advocating going down into the basement of the whitehouse and flipping some giant frankensteinian on/off switch.

This is a false dilemma you are providing us with. Just because it isnt feasible to end statism right NOW within the next 10 seconds, doesn't mean that one must support the idea that one group of people should have the right to forcibly confiscate the property of another group.

Well, I'm no longer a hard core libertarian, so I accept a certain level of taxation.
But if a better way is presented I will support it.