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Author Topic: IOTA  (Read 1313277 times)
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omicron1
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February 05, 2016, 12:06:24 PM
 #1701

@child_harold: It's not all about you. You only participate. Would you have been able to come up with this idea, and also implement it? I don't think so. Give the Iota team credit. You have invested in an experimantal project, delays and set backs are part of that.
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February 05, 2016, 12:10:26 PM
 #1702

1. Not sure what to say. When it comes it comes I guess. So you mean to tell me that in the year youve been working on IOTA you never thought about the i/o/account thing before?
2. I'd guess I was more involved than 95% of your investors
3  ok
4. I have given both money and my time. I cannot comment on such technical issues. I suggest you consult Sergio and Vitalik

I feel a bit like Jerry in this clip:
Jerry And His New Cabinets
https://youtu.be/5vvWlZUYVOM




I have been constantly returning to account thing but every time few pieces of the puzzle were on wrong places. Your level of involvement is pretty good IMO.

I didn't get that clip, the actors accent is terrible.
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February 05, 2016, 12:11:42 PM
 #1703

@child_harold you are the only one here how create problem were there aren't.

IOTA is not a single man decision project, we have read your opinion so now please stop spamming over and over the same concept.

We all belive in CfB, he posted a question the community have answered.

You answer in NO, we understand that.

You want a vote ? we can organize a signed message votation.
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February 05, 2016, 12:26:34 PM
 #1704

@child_harold you are the only one here how create problem were there aren't.

Im not making a problem, rather voicing my opinion.
+ tangleNinja seemed to agree with me somewhat.

I find it very unlikely that you and 99% of the other people in this forum have enough knowledge to comment on the ramifications of going i/o or account in a hitherto experimental field of applying DAGs to cryptotokens.

So since you presumably have no informed opinion on this matter it seems most unwise to comment.

Therefor, it is a folly.

My advice to consult with Sergio and perhaps Vitalik, on the other hand, does make sense.

My position is that such consultations should have already taken place and these architectural decisions already made by the experts.

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February 05, 2016, 12:34:48 PM
 #1705

I vote for reusable addresses like in Nxt and balances approach, if and only if this design is secure. More days of testing is not a problem, f*ck the whiners.

ARDOR - Blockchain as a Service. Three birds with one stone. /// Do not hold NXT at exchanges, NXT wallets: core+lite, mobile Android
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February 05, 2016, 12:47:27 PM
 #1706

So since you presumably have no informed opinion on this matter it seems most unwise to comment.

An informed opinion is not given at birth, so let's form one.

Both input / output and balance approach work pretty well in current blockchains. It looks likely that both of them could work in combination with a tangle.

@cfb: concerning consensus of balance approach: In which case would full nodes not be able to agree on balances? Each of them stores the full tangle, so if one of them tries to validate transaction A, but sees that other nodes validated a conflicting transaction B with more PoW, then A will get rejected, similar to how it works with blockchains, no?
Just like an input cannot be spent twice, a balance cannot be spent twice either?

Proposal: Let's integrate balances, see in beta if it works well.
Worst case: If not, then cfb would have to rewrite the code to input/output, and we would start the tangle again from scratch.
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February 05, 2016, 12:48:59 PM
 #1707

I vote for reusable addresses like in Nxt and balances approach, if and only if this design is secure. More days of testing is not a problem, f*ck the whiners.

Wow, all these noobs laying into me. And yet I'm the one accused of running sock puppets, lol
OK freshman777 - and your qualifications are? So what you're saying is:

I vote for making it better but if and only if it is actually better
 Tongue

Could we perhaps ask upon Sergio (who created DAGcoin) to bring some actual knowledge and expertise to this decision making process?
This peanut gallery consensus (PGC) is not inspiring me with confidence.

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February 05, 2016, 01:00:02 PM
 #1708

I thought about the balance and in-out models a bit more.
I may have changed my mind about the balance model, but i may be completely wrong.

Assume we have multiple networks with relatively high bandwidth internal and very low bandwidth and unrealiabe transport between them,
as is to be expected in an IoT use case. and we have someone sending iota transactions to both networks

(net A )  -  X  - ( net B )

because net A and B both have low connectivity to the rest of the world, they run their own little DAG that gets merged into the global DAG once in a while, to make the
transactions that happen in their networks actually valid.

Now in the input output model, when X sends a transaction to B, that transaction will be saved in the graph of B and will get
valideted by all transactions within B, sensors (inside B) can relatively  savely accept that transactions because a lot of transactions
inside B add a lot of POW to it, until the network is able to connect to global DAG.

In the balance model same thing happens BUT balance model would require that a node recieves every transaction from that account
to make sure the account is not double spending its coins.

double spending is a problem in both cases, but it seems to me low network connectivity would be less of a problem
in the input output model as nodes would not be required to get all transactions of X beause POW is added to that specifif output of X.
In balance model X could send a transaction into net B that might be invalid from the start, If that happens in input/output recieving a double spend
would not be a problem if net B can manage to add enugh POW so that once it gets merged into global DAG it is valid.

Corret me if i am wrong but balance model would complicate how the network comes to consensus A LOT.
So input/output model would be safer for small ( very small, so small they cant save full tangle ) IOTA sensors to accept transactions,
because they only have to check if that input is valid, not if all of the transsactions that this sender made is valid.
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February 05, 2016, 01:01:49 PM
 #1709

@cfb: concerning consensus of balance approach: In which case would full nodes not be able to agree on balances? Each of them stores the full tangle, so if one of them tries to validate transaction A, but sees that other nodes validated a conflicting transaction B with more PoW, then A will get rejected, similar to how it works with blockchains, no?
Just like an input cannot be spent twice, a balance cannot be spent twice either?

I can't say how all this will work without running a model. Guys like mthcl can analyze it in their mind, I need to observe the results of a running model.
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February 05, 2016, 01:01:55 PM
 #1710

after careful consideration, I'll let the experts decide  Roll Eyes
Sorry I'm a noob to this kind of response  Grin
@child_harold, he just litle convinced and sometime you are true  Smiley

Edit: if you need time, i have no problem for this  Wink Wink





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February 05, 2016, 01:09:24 PM
 #1711

OK freshman777 - and your qualifications are?

My qualifications are patience and understanding that cutting edge tech requires time and testing, more testing and some more testing. You lack these qualifications, from your posts. Go buy insured government bonds and treat yourself to 1% yearly risk-free profits.

ARDOR - Blockchain as a Service. Three birds with one stone. /// Do not hold NXT at exchanges, NXT wallets: core+lite, mobile Android
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February 05, 2016, 01:38:17 PM
 #1712

OK freshman777 - and your qualifications are?

My qualifications are patience and understanding that cutting edge tech requires time and testing, more testing and some more testing. You lack these qualifications, from your posts. Go buy insured government bonds and treat yourself to 1% yearly risk-free profits.

While I agree there is a finite amount of 'time' in a project before a beta should be released. I would prefer a functioning beta asap over waiting further, especially if we are talking GUI improvements over core functionality/viability. The brightest minds out there echo that minimum viable product wins over polished final when it comes to release cycles.

FOR RENT.
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February 05, 2016, 01:45:13 PM
 #1713

While I agree there is a finite amount of 'time' in a project before a beta should be released. I would prefer a functioning beta asap over waiting further, especially if we are talking GUI improvements over core functionality/viability. The brightest minds out there echo that minimum viable product wins over polished final when it comes to release cycles.

As it looks beta should still be released this weekend
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February 05, 2016, 05:11:02 PM
 #1714

OK freshman777 - and your qualifications are?

My qualifications are patience and understanding that cutting edge tech requires time and testing, more testing and some more testing. You lack these qualifications, from your posts. Go buy insured government bonds and treat yourself to 1% yearly risk-free profits.

While I agree there is a finite amount of 'time' in a project before a beta should be released. I would prefer a functioning beta asap over waiting further, especially if we are talking GUI improvements over core functionality/viability. The brightest minds out there echo that minimum viable product wins over polished final when it comes to release cycles.

And where did you see that this issue is trivial as GUI. This dilemma is absolutely core functionality related and irreversible.
The few voting no for technical reasons are welcomed. But the few that vote no because they want it out now to.... you know.. sell it?
Are foolish beyond words.
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February 05, 2016, 05:21:26 PM
 #1715

harold, honestly you have no business posting your opinions here. You have every right to participate in the crowd sale but you clearly don't
know what you've "invested" in.

You ask what company? Really? This is the level of intelligence and sophistication you have.
You send bitcoins to a project's crowd sale that accepts two forms of payments, bitcoins and NXT's JINN asset.

And you never bothered to ask yourself, what the hell is a JINN asset? Thats where most of the crowd sale is going towards.
Further development of the JINN processor. Yet you still put your tiny decimal bitcoins in.

And now you have the nerve to tell people it should be launched now because Xmas eta was given. Given, not promised.

And now you are pretending all along you wanted experts to weigh in not the community, which are full of programmers too.
From the beginning you stated that IOTA is ready now, launch it cuz I say so. Cuz in your world, when you work on something
for a year its always ready and never needs reconsideration.

[CENSORED] Thats why I can't stand it here. If we are
blessed and IOTA really catches on. In a few years I can retire to anywhere I want. But you can't because one, your stake is insignificant,
and two you would have already sold it by then guaranteed.


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February 05, 2016, 05:22:14 PM
 #1716

 
Why are people in such a hurry ?
The more testing the better.
Why would you get angry that the software is released tomorrow or after tomorrow ?

Advice for everyone :
Go out, take some fresh air, walk and ask yourself if it's worth it to release a software that is not enough tested.
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February 05, 2016, 05:23:04 PM
 #1717

And you never bothered to ask yourself, what the hell is a JINN asset? Thats where most of the crowd sale is going towards.
Further development of the JINN processor. Yet you still put your tiny decimal bitcoins in.

And now you have the nerve to tell people it should be launched now because Xmas eta was given. Given, not promised.

And now you are pretending all along you wanted experts to weigh in not the community, which are full of programmers too.
From the beginning you stated that IOTA is ready now, launch it cuz I say so. Cuz in your world, when you work on something
for a year its always ready and never needs reconsideration.

Yes, these are the same people that up to today can't do a Jinn launch which was supposed to be months ago.  I'm having hard time not to laugh at this situation because IOTA may as well be  "JINN 2.0" in this regard.

[CENSORED QUOTE]

I wish people could retire from this. Unfortunately things do not work like that in crypto world. Like someone here mentioned before, ~5x ROI is the target IF IOTA  launches soon(in days).
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February 05, 2016, 05:24:14 PM
 #1718

@charvesp, MickGhee, vlight: Some censorship has been done to keep the thread civilized.
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February 05, 2016, 06:00:55 PM
 #1719

Use case for IOTA: Independent BOINC Projects

Someone could write a library, or fork the BOINC server.  Usage with IOTA is as such.

1. Create a BOINC project.
2. Whenever an IOTA client downloads work, create an IOTA address and send from this empty account the given rewards for finishing the workload.  This will give the account a negative balance.
3. The worker can then see that the project node has sent the data and is expecting work.
4. Once the worker finishes her workload, returns the data and it is verified, the BOINC project owner can send money to original payer address.

This is a scenario that can make use of the negative-balance transactions.  

A Personal Quote on BTT from 2011:
"I'd be willing to make a moderate "investment" if the value of the BTC went below $2.00.  Otherwise I'll just have to live with my 5 BTC and be happy. :/"  ...sigh.  If only I knew.
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February 05, 2016, 06:09:14 PM
 #1720

Sounds great, have to think about your idea rlh!
For all users not on ryver

Cfb:
Quote
If Alice sends yet-not-existent money to Bob and Bob trusts Alice, he can accept her money. If someone trusts that Bob will cover the difference even if Alice fails to pay the credit then he can accept money from Bob. After a while Alice will pay the "credit" and the global tangle will adopt that subtangle built on trust between its participants.
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