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Author Topic: IOTA  (Read 1329312 times)
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tromp
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November 16, 2015, 06:25:11 PM
 #661

Of course I was talking about hash-functions that don't allow for time-memory trade-offs.

Give me the name of one of such functions, please. The trade-off is a pretty universal thing, the best a function can do is to keep time*memory*advice constant, if I'm not mistaken.

You are quite mistaken. This is a recognized weakness in scypt's design.

Here's one: Argon2, winner of the Password Hashing Competition.

Most of the PHC candidates qualify, since time-memory-trade-off resistance was one of the design goals.
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tromp
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November 16, 2015, 06:41:47 PM
 #662

This means that in average computation of a single bit takes less time than computation of the whole hash.

Like I said it takes a about a percent less.

All that article does is propose an extremely inefficient way of evaluating SHA256,
as some of the comments there already point out.

You should find more reputable sources to support your questionable claims.
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November 16, 2015, 06:47:36 PM
 #663

Here's one: Argon2, winner of the Password Hashing Competition.

Argon2 whitepaper says that time-memory trade-off still can be used. At some point the trade-off stops working because computational units will occupy more space than the removed memory but this protection won't work for a quantum computer with its perfect parallelism of computations. Looks like Argon2 fails to deliver protection against quantum computers.
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November 16, 2015, 06:55:56 PM
 #664

You should find more reputable sources to support your questionable claims.

There are not that many papers that analyze algebraic attacks on double SHA256. Look at http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-21702-9_6#page-1 and https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=265759.msg2851659#msg2851659 to get understanding how single bits can be computed faster than computation of the whole hash. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_normal_form may also help.
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November 16, 2015, 07:07:40 PM
 #665

Here's one: Argon2, winner of the Password Hashing Competition.

Argon2 whitepaper says that time-memory trade-off still can be used. At some point the trade-off stops working because computational units will occupy more space than the removed memory but this protection won't work for a quantum computer with its perfect parallelism of computations. Looks like Argon2 fails to deliver protection against quantum computers.

The whitepaper (Table 1) says that reducing memory for Argon2d by a mere factor of 7 requires increasing the amount of computation by 2^18, and it only gets much worse beyond that.

Best of luck with your perfect quantum computer.
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November 16, 2015, 07:14:51 PM
 #666

The whitepaper (Table 1) says that reducing memory for Argon2d by a mere factor of 7 requires increasing the amount of computation by 2^18, and it only gets much worse beyond that.

Best of luck with your perfect quantum computer.

So it requires to add 18 qubits to that perfect quantum computer, it seems?

Have you seen this pic:

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November 16, 2015, 08:51:02 PM
 #667

Two years ago I was the first German blogger that took notice of Nxt. I hope for IOTA I can also play an important role to create attention in the German speaking communities (what includes Switzerland and Austria as well).

This first post includes a lot of information from this thread also some parts of the cointelegraph interview and other sources from the web.
In addition I brought attention to Jinn and how IOTA is related to this semiconductor start up:
https://altcoinspekulant.wordpress.com/2015/11/15/iota-kryptowaehrungsrevolution-zum-internet-of-things/

Have a good start in the week!


Thanks a lot !

Of course David. It would be great if I could contact you as well for an interview, not right now but begin of December, when we get closer to the ICO date. Just 4-5 questions.
Many thanks in advance!

Co-Host of the Altcoin Meetup Switzerland
Director at Forctis AG - Building the next revolution in Blockchain: Forctis.io
Strategic Advisor of the Blockchain projects Smart Containers and Mt Pelerin
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November 16, 2015, 09:01:57 PM
 #668

The whitepaper (Table 1) says that reducing memory for Argon2d by a mere factor of 7 requires increasing the amount of computation by 2^18, and it only gets much worse beyond that.

Best of luck with your perfect quantum computer.

So it requires to add 18 qubits to that perfect quantum computer, it seems?

You are rather confused about the abilities of quantum computers.
A 2^18 increase in sequential computation is also a 2^18 increase in quantum runtime.
Please read http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/The_Limits_of_Quantum_Computers.pdf
to understand what quantum computers can and cannot do.

Scott also writes regularly about DWave and their snake-oil version of quantum computer that your pictures alludes to. See http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2448
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November 16, 2015, 09:11:47 PM
 #669

You are rather confused about the abilities of quantum computers.
A 2^18 increase in sequential computation is also a 2^18 increase in quantum runtime.
Please read http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/The_Limits_of_Quantum_Computers.pdf
to understand what quantum computers can and cannot do.

Scott also writes regularly about DWave and their snake-oil version of quantum computer that your pictures alludes to. See http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2448

DWave is not a quantum computer, that's true.

Regarding that 2^18 issue, your paper says:
Quote
A small number of particles in superposition
states can carry an enormous amount of information:
a mere 1,000 particles can be in a superposition
that represents every number from 1 to
2^1,000 (about 10^300), and a quantum computer
would manipulate all those numbers in
parallel, for instance, by hitting the particles
with laser pulses.
While it's obvious that 1 number is not enough for Argon2 computation, if we assume that 10 numbers is enough then 18*10 extra qubits should solve the problem. Right?
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November 16, 2015, 09:36:40 PM
 #670


Scott also writes regularly about DWave and their snake-oil version of quantum computer that your pictures alludes to. See http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2448


Scott Aaronson is a champion of scalable quantum computers: http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/computing/hardware/why-im-wagering-100000-on-quantum-computing

No sure why you bring up D-Wave, everyone knows that they are doing quantum annealing, not proper quantum computations. None of this suggests we should not take a physical theory seriously. That's what this really boils down to, engineering challenges, the theory of quantum mechanics is crystal clear on this topic.

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November 16, 2015, 09:42:05 PM
 #671

An idea has come to my mind. We could use a quantum computer to check SHA256 digests for different patterns by using Kuperberg's quantum sieve algorithm, this would let us to assess how secure SHA256 is. No patterns = hash function is close to random oracle. We could do the same for any algorithm even if it requires petabytes of RAM, we need only digests.
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November 17, 2015, 04:20:16 AM
 #672

What algorithm will IOTA use, can I mine it?

Sirx: SQyHJdSRPk5WyvQ5rJpwDUHrLVSvK2ffFa
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November 17, 2015, 08:29:52 AM
 #673

What algorithm will IOTA use, can I mine it?

Iota is not mineable.
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November 17, 2015, 01:38:46 PM
 #674

I wrote a comprehensive article about IOTA usage and how it fits into the IoT ecosystem:

https://medium.com/@DavidSonstebo/iota-97592581f985

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November 17, 2015, 02:02:28 PM
 #675

I've been wondering when this would be addressed. Applicable QC is alot closer than people realize.

Sergue, have you ever worked on engineering bio-weapons?

Also I don't quite see the rational for the need to create a completely different method as opposed to changing to a QC resistant algorithm such as polynomial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-quantum_cryptography
http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/SMA/ispab/documents/minutes/2015-06/ispab_june-11_quantum_lchen.pdf
https://www.cs.elte.hu/blobs/diplomamunkak/msc_mat/2012/nemes_antal.pdf

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iotatoken
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November 17, 2015, 02:31:14 PM
 #676

I've been wondering when this would be addressed. Applicable QC is alot closer than people realize.

Sergue, have you ever worked on engineering bio-weapons?

Also I don't quite see the rational for the need to create a completely different method as opposed to changing to a QC resistant algorithm such as polynomial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-quantum_cryptography
http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/SMA/ispab/documents/minutes/2015-06/ispab_june-11_quantum_lchen.pdf
https://www.cs.elte.hu/blobs/diplomamunkak/msc_mat/2012/nemes_antal.pdf

Could you rephrase the question?

Are you wondering why we did the Tangle instead of Blockchain?

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November 17, 2015, 02:38:12 PM
 #677


Sergue, have you ever worked on engineering bio-weapons?

No, that's another guy with the same name. If you continue searching, you'll find a famous violinist as well - that's not me.  Smiley
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November 17, 2015, 02:52:16 PM
 #678

https://medium.com/@DavidSonstebo/iota-97592581f985
Tweeted!! https://twitter.com/MagicNxt/status/666629469138997248  Cool





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November 17, 2015, 03:00:16 PM
 #679

I wrote a comprehensive article about IOTA usage and how it fits into the IoT ecosystem:

https://medium.com/@DavidSonstebo/iota-97592581f985

Nice work David, I like graphical work. Also the logo of IOTA is really great. It’s not just about tech in Cryptos, even things like a nice Logo can help to get attention.

Co-Host of the Altcoin Meetup Switzerland
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November 17, 2015, 03:39:24 PM
 #680


Sergue, have you ever worked on engineering bio-weapons?

No, that's another guy with the same name. If you continue searching, you'll find a famous violinist as well - that's not me.  Smiley

Thx, Could you link your academic background please?

I've been wondering when this would be addressed. Applicable QC is alot closer than people realize.

Sergue, have you ever worked on engineering bio-weapons?

Also I don't quite see the rational for the need to create a completely different method as opposed to changing to a QC resistant algorithm such as polynomial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-quantum_cryptography
http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/SMA/ispab/documents/minutes/2015-06/ispab_june-11_quantum_lchen.pdf
https://www.cs.elte.hu/blobs/diplomamunkak/msc_mat/2012/nemes_antal.pdf

Could you rephrase the question?

Are you wondering why we did the Tangle instead of Blockchain?

I am wondering why the need to replace the blockchain at this time. I am not sold on the idea that yet another coin (token ATM) needs to be created in order to solve the only serious issue I see with current solutions. I am also wondering if current solutions can be upgraded to this tangle with a fork? I understand that alot of work has obviously been put into this effort but I can see a few other methods to monetize this than the creation of yet another coin. Why not propose to the larger Alt projects they morph into this tangle for a fee and use them as a testbed to prove to bitcoin that this would be a hard fork worth pushing. If this were accomplished I see the funding flowing and the infrastructure will not have to be built from the ground up. I am still trying to digest the whitepaper (the math is beyond me) so could you list the bullet points for the advantage/disadvantages v/s blockchain tech.

Also
Quote
that  one  needs  to  check  in  order  to  nd  a  suitable  hash  for  issuing  a  transaction
is not so huge, it is only around 3
8
.  The gain of eciency for an \ideal" quantum
computer would be therefore of order 3
4
= 81, which is already quite acceptable (also,
remember that (
p
N
) could easily mean 10
p
N
or so).  Also, the algorithm is such
that the time to nd a nonce is not much larger than the time needed for other tasks
necessary to issue a transaction,  and the latter part is much more resistant agains
quantum computing.
Therefore, the above discussion suggests that the tangle provides a much better
protection against an adversary with a quantum computer compared to the (Bitcoin)
blockchain

Saying the time is not much larger is not quantitative. Bloat and TTC are subjective. I'm glad you added the qualifier "Suggests" as I do not see it proven but like I said I cannot follow the math, that is for smarter people than me. Smiley

Typo in red.

Goddamn I hate quoting from PDF's why do you people continue to use them? Stinking browser plugin failed and I lost all those tabs in the window with the PDF. PDF's are unsafe.

ANYTHING ADOBE IS UNSAFE!!!!


I finish redoing this later as I have to flush the cache and remove this browser from memory to recover stability and I have pages to backup before that.

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