[ESHOP launched] Trezor: Bitcoin hardware wallet

[gweedo]

Well they need to say that on their website and they don't so I expect 3 BTC which is what I paid. Do you have a law degree?

I don't have a law degree, but I was recently reimbursed by my Swiss employer for my expenses abroad. They paid me Swiss Francs with the rate on the day of the expense. I'm pretty sure it is legal and I'm also pretty sure you are getting Czech Crowns if you ever get a refund. Does your lawyer has a Czech law degree?

That said, I'm still willing to pay you 330USD for the device.

My lawyer has an International Business & Economic Law degree, so I think he knows a little more than you.

$330 is insulting for my device, not only is the device rare as well as it is limited, and first edition. The device is probably worth more than 3 bitcoins and for sure in a couple of years I could probably get a good price for it.

[molecular]

mytrezor website is unusable. It freezes and few moments later browser tells me that trezor plugin is not responding. I can't even click on the "Support" link. Both firefox and chrome act the same way. Both trezor plugged in and plugged out.

I've had this problem, too. Can't click support link unless the plugin is working (which can't because my chrome is too new). The popup telling me to dl the plugin is modal and blocking everything else it seems. Can't be closed either.

[BurtW]

The device is probably worth more than 3 bitcoins and for sure in a couple of years I could probably get a good price for it.

Sounds like you have a plan.

[novusordo]

Trezor ils not really offline, if you look carefully, you will see a cable

offline != cableless

Wifi is without a cable and is online.
Trezor has a cable and is offline.

I Never said offline = cable less

But you have an USB cable, plugged to a computer, connected to internet...
With data going in and out of Trezor, from and to internet and you say it's offline ? Really ?

I don't think so.

Taking into consideration that the Trezor exposes no keys to the host computer and has no networking capabilities, I do think so.

[klondike_bar]

So you can expose unencrypted wallet.dat on USB key connected to online computer, because the key don't have network and will not send the wallet to the host ?

I know offline devices won't expose keys, for connected devices, I can't tell.

Let me be clear, I think trezor is nice, convenient and more secure than past hot wallets, but clearly not as secure as offline devices or paper (I only consider online threats there)

the trezor does not have a wallet.dat that is exposed - and applying a password further removes the issue.  Its more secure than printing paper wallets or creating a USB key

[JorgeStolfi]

My lawyer has an International Business & Economic Law degree, so I think he knows a little more than you.

$330 is insulting for my device, not only is the device rare as well as it is limited, and first edition. The device is probably worth more than 3 bitcoins and for sure in a couple of years I could probably get a good price for it.

The refund is usually what you paid, not what you dream that the device is worth.  If you paid in BTC, the amount to be refunded is the (amount of BTC you paid) x (BTC price at the time you paid).

Besides, if the Trezor it is worth more than 330$, then you should pay the difference to satoshilabs. 

That said, a company that sets prices and does its accounting in BTC knows nothing about marketing and even less about accounting.

[gweedo]

My lawyer has an International Business & Economic Law degree, so I think he knows a little more than you.

$330 is insulting for my device, not only is the device rare as well as it is limited, and first edition. The device is probably worth more than 3 bitcoins and for sure in a couple of years I could probably get a good price for it.

The refund is usually what you paid, not what you dream that the device is worth.  If you paid in BTC, the amount to be refunded is the (amount of BTC you paid) x (BTC price at the time you paid).

Besides, if the Trezor it is worth more than 330$, then you should pay the difference to satoshilabs. 

That said, a company that sets prices and does its accounting in BTC knows nothing about marketing and even less about accounting.

You are combining like three different threads. I paid 3 BTC and looking for a refund of 3 BTCs. He made an offer on my device and I told him what I thought about his offer. I never said refund me what I think the device is worth. Please read and understand what I write, not that hard.

[JorgeStolfi]

You are combining like three different threads. I paid 3 BTC and looking for a refund of 3 BTCs. He made an offer on my device and I told him what I thought about his offer. I never said refund me what I think the device is worth. Please read and understand what I write, not that hard.

Seems I did, sorry. 

But I stand for the first point (about the refund).  If the 3 BTC that you send them were worth X euros when you send them, you paid X euros, and you are entitled to a refund of X euros.

[gweedo]

You are combining like three different threads. I paid 3 BTC and looking for a refund of 3 BTCs. He made an offer on my device and I told him what I thought about his offer. I never said refund me what I think the device is worth. Please read and understand what I write, not that hard.

Seems I did, sorry. 

But I stand for the first point (about the refund).  If the 3 BTC that you send them were worth X euros when you send them, you paid X euros, and you are entitled to a refund of X euros.

They weren't priced in euros or usd when I purchased mine, they were priced 3 BTC for mine and 1 BTC for the plastic.

[JorgeStolfi]

They weren't priced in euros or usd when I purchased mine, they were priced 3 BTC for mine and 1 BTC for the plastic.

I understand that that is your preferred interpretation, but I bet that the courts would not agree.   In the US bitcoins are not currency but merchandise; I do not know in Czechia but I bet that the court would take that view.    Courts usually do not count as "loss" a profit that you could have made if you did not give something to the merchant  (in this case, the money that you could have made if you had saved those BTC and sold them today). 

On the other hand you may be able to get damages, if you convince the judge that you lost money because of their fault.   I wonder how you could prove that, though.

But, sincerely, I would not feel sorry for Satoshilabs if they are forced to refund you 3 BTC.  It would teach them not to quote prices in BTC (and, more generally, that business and religion do not mix). 

(Sorry for being cynical.  Maybe I need to take a long break  from this forum.)

[gweedo]

I understand that that is your preferred interpretation

LMAO it isn't my preferred anything. They told me the device costed 3 BTCs, I paid 3 BTCs. Do you even know how courts work? I love these monday morning legal teams. We technically bartered I was promised a device that I can use, I can't use that device due to their service not working properly and then refusing to fix it, which is actually quite well documented on the forum.

But I am not taking legal action, I just want a refund, and to use escrow so I don't get swindled again. But I doubt I will get it, and I will just hold on to the device and sell in 5 yrs for a profit since it is a collectors item now.

[btchip]

(Sorry for being cynical.  Maybe I need to take a long break  from this forum.)

I'd vote for either that or back up your security questions with code, exploits, real life scenarios, anything. It's all fun to come up with theories when (almost) all code is here for everyone to see, but doesn't really serve any purpose in my opinion.

But I am not taking legal action,

I haven't seen anyone else mentioning his lawyer in this thread. Or perhaps he's working for free and like answering your questions, then it could be nice to share his contact, as I always wanted to meet that kind of lawyer 

But I doubt I will get it, and I will just hold on to the device and sell in 5 yrs for a profit since it is a collectors item now.

so, problem solved, and people already gave you multiple options to recover your funds, either with or without Trezor (and yeah, the double spend is not an issue - given the time you had to push it yourself)

 

[klokan]

refusing to fix it, which is actually quite well documented on the forum.

This forum documents that they are refusing to talk to you, not refusing to fix it. And I told you many times that you never payed for the myTrezor web wallet service. I repeat, YOU PAID ZERO BTC/USD/CZK/whatever for the web wallet. It's free. What does your lawyer says about that? My lawyer says that you cannot be refunded for your device just because the free service from the same company does not work for you.

[bitpop]

It's extremely safer than paper, especially when spending

[novusordo]

So you can expose unencrypted wallet.dat on USB key connected to online computer, because the key don't have network and will not send the wallet to the host ?

I know offline devices won't expose keys, for connected devices, I can't tell.

Let me be clear, I think trezor is nice, convenient and more secure than past hot wallets, but clearly not as secure as offline devices or paper (I only consider online threats there)

Your comparison is inaccurate, because a wallet file on a USB drive is just as easy to steal as a wallet file on a hard drive, if it's plugged in. Trezor isolates the private keys from the computer, which is the whole point. The host computer sends the Trezor the transaction, the Trezor signs it and sends it back, then the computer broadcasts it to the network. The private keys are never accessible by the host machine.

It's less secure than paper wallets in the sense that there could be some sort of bug that would expose your seed, or individual private keys somehow. You can't get total isolation and also be able to use the private keys (if you know how that could be done, I'd be very interested in hearing about it). Trezor is, right now, the best of both worlds between hot and cold wallets.

[Anon136]

refusing to fix it, which is actually quite well documented on the forum.

This forum documents that they are refusing to talk to you, not refusing to fix it. And I told you many times that you never payed for the myTrezor web wallet service. I repeat, YOU PAID ZERO BTC/USD/CZK/whatever for the web wallet. It's free. What does your lawyer says about that? My lawyer says that you cannot be refunded for your device just because the free service from the same company does not work for you.

Just ignore him.

[JorgeStolfi]

back up your security questions with code, exploits, real life scenarios, anything. It's all fun to come up with theories when (almost) all code is here for everyone to see, but doesn't really serve any purpose in my opinion.

That's ridiculous.  I have helped enough already, if you can't see the risks, I don't care any more. You have bitcoins, I don't; so bitcoin theft is  your problem, not mine. 

[btchip]

That's ridiculous.  I have helped enough already, if you can't see the risks, I don't care any more.

I'm not the one that needs being convinced.

You have bitcoins, I don't; so bitcoin theft is  your problem, not mine. 

oh ok so you're only trolling here, not trying to improve things. duly noted.

[klokan]

They weren't priced in euros or usd when I purchased mine, they were priced 3 BTC for mine and 1 BTC for the plastic.

But, sincerely, I would not feel sorry for Satoshilabs if they are forced to refund you 3 BTC.  It would teach them not to quote prices in BTC (and, more generally, that business and religion do not mix).  

(Sorry for being cynical.  Maybe I need to take a long break  from this forum.)

In Czech Republic, accounting act #563/1991 § 4/12 mandates that all accounting is done in Czech Crowns and § 24/2a mandates that the value rate is taken at the day of the payment. Here is the law to calm gweedo's lawyer and Jorge's cynicism: http://www.zakonyprolidi.cz/cs/1991-563

And Jorge, I understand that you are skeptical about BTC. I read your "Beware of Bitcoin" pamphlet yesterday. But I don't understand why do you need to attack every Bitcoin related company? Guys are trying to improve security and they are very open about it. You already told us what are the potential threats about the device. Can you tell us how would you improve it? If they can't improve it, maybe Brazilian government can start making the devices that you will be able to trust based on their open-source software/hardware. Isn't it a good thing?

[anarchoatheist]

You are combining like three different threads. I paid 3 BTC and looking for a refund of 3 BTCs. He made an offer on my device and I told him what I thought about his offer. I never said refund me what I think the device is worth. Please read and understand what I write, not that hard.

Seems I did, sorry. 

But I stand for the first point (about the refund).  If the 3 BTC that you send them were worth X euros when you send them, you paid X euros, and you are entitled to a refund of X euros.

They weren't priced in euros or usd when I purchased mine, they were priced 3 BTC for mine and 1 BTC for the plastic.

I have a hypothetical question for you. Lets say bitcoin had crashed all the way and were currently now worth $1 each, would you still be wanting your refund in btc?