Pirate PMs

[theymos]

I don't like the idea of these PMs being released to a random community member.  Perhaps you could put up an address to pay for your time and the community could donate so that you can look through them yourself instead of a 3rd party?

Having me and some global moderators censor the PMs of info that could harm innocent people is something I considered. I'm not sure if I could collect enough money, though. There are 4092 PMs with 1181516 characters. I'd guess that that's around 675 pages. $2-$3 per page seems like a reasonable rate, so that's $1350-$2025. More if I wanted each PM to be double-checked before being published, which would be a good idea. Could I get that much in donations?

Also, this would take a few weeks. Would the investigation be harmed by more delay?

[1714036049]

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[1714036049]

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[mc_lovin]

What is the goal of releasing the PMs? 

[ElectricMucus]

What is the goal of releasing the PMs? 

What a question! Yes I would like to know that too.

[Maged]

What is the goal of releasing the PMs? 

Locating any misrepresentations or material omissions made to people, on which they relied to make an investment decision in any bitcoin securities offering. Almost certainly such a misrepresentation was made via PM to some people. With that information, the SEC can move in.

[repentance]

Also, this would take a few weeks. Would the investigation be harmed by more delay?

If you mean any official investigation by regulators or law enforcement, then if the PMs contain useful information they're going to want access to the unedited versions.  If you're talking about redacting the PMs in order to make them publicly available to the community, then I guess the question is whether that is worth the time and effort involved in and of itself.

[theymos]

What is the goal of releasing the PMs? 

- Locate pirateat40
- Prosecute pirateat40 when he is found. (If courts accept the PMs as evidence.)
- See if pirateat40 had any accomplices. Maybe some of the passthrough operators were told by pirateat40 that this was a Ponzi scheme, but continued lying to people about it.
- I don't know if BCB has any interest in this, but I think that publishing the PMs with the sensitive info of innocent people removed (names, exact BTC amounts, addresses, passwords, etc.) would be of great historical interest/value. This would be, for example, a great resource for any academic research of Ponzi schemes.

[mufa23]

Does Bitcointalk have a privacy policy? I can't find one. And I don't see one when you register. So technically you can do what you want. But I guess this means Personal Messages aren't exactly "Personal" anymore.

I don't mean to sound cocky, but I have a feeling you have already made your mind and are looking for the forum to back up your moral decision. Go ahead and do it.

[Brunic]

You should be careful with that. I believe you need to define specific objectives and make the search and release of the information only according to the specific objectives. It could become an horrible legal mess.

I mean, usually, the police needs to ask a judge to give them a specific mandate, and they can't really go over the boundaries of the mandate. It's not because it's an internet forum that users don't have civil rights anymore. Many of us are living in societies of rights, and it is possible that by releasing that information, you're breaking civil rights of many users around here.

Being an international forum and the biggest Bitcoin community around, there's a lot at stake here. You should not ask the community about that, you should ask a lawyer. I don't think it's going to do any good if pirate sue your ass because your broke his civil rights (or any other users).

I think the minimum you should do is:
-Define specific objectives for your search.
-List all the relevant PMs.
-Ask the users who sent and received PM from pirate if they consent to release that information.
-Ask a lawyer to know if pirate could come bite at you if you release the PM.

*EDIT*
I'm not a lawyer and I don't think any of those who are going to reply here are also. Go see a lawyer first, seriously.

[helloworld]

-Ask the users who sent and received PM from pirate if they consent to release that information.

Exactly.

IMHO the only reason for *not* doing it that way would be to

- See if pirateat40 had any accomplices.

However if that's really the true intent in all this, there would probably be far fewer than 4092 PMs to look through.

[casascius]

Many of us are living in societies of rights, and it is possible that by releasing that information, you're breaking civil rights of many users around here.

Being an international forum and the biggest Bitcoin community around, there's a lot at stake here. You should not ask the community about that, you should ask a lawyer. I don't think it's going to do any good if pirate sue your ass because your broke his civil rights (or any other users).

Civil rights by their nature can only be broken by or on behalf of the government.  It is not really possible for an individual acting on his own accord to violate someone's civil rights.

[repentance]

- I don't know if BCB has any interest in this, but I think that publishing the PMs with the sensitive info of innocent people removed (names, exact BTC amounts, addresses, passwords, etc.) would be of great historical interest/value. This would be, for example, a great resource for any academic research of Ponzi schemes.

I honestly think that this is the only reason for making them public whether in redacted or raw form.  No investigation by authorities with the power to take action against pirate requires the PMs being made public outside of a courtroom.

While I believe that the PMs may have value to investigators, their value to investigators isn't going to be increased by them being released publicly so I think that's a bit of a red herring.  How would releasing them publicly be more likely to assist in locating or prosecuting pirate than simply giving them to investigators without releasing them to the community?

I think that the community itself probably does want to know who knew what and when and whether anyone in this community knowingly and actively assisted pirate in perpetrating his fraud.  I think that if the PMs are going to be released publicly in order to satisfy that curiosity then there is no need to make noble-sounding justifications for releasing them.

The choice ultimately rests with you, theymos.  Nobody else can make it for you.

[gweedo]

Hasn't the SEC taken an interest in this?  Why not just give it to them?

The S.E.C doesn't care about bitcoin, plus they don't have any authority over bitcoin.

I say have BCB go thru and release only the ones that would be useful

[Brunic]

Many of us are living in societies of rights, and it is possible that by releasing that information, you're breaking civil rights of many users around here.

Being an international forum and the biggest Bitcoin community around, there's a lot at stake here. You should not ask the community about that, you should ask a lawyer. I don't think it's going to do any good if pirate sue your ass because your broke his civil rights (or any other users).

Civil rights by their nature can only be broken by or on behalf of the government.  It is not really possible for an individual acting on his own accord to violate someone's civil rights.

If I refuse to lend you an apartment because you're black, I'm pretty sure I'm violating your civil rights and I'm pretty sure you can come back at me. But anyway, the important point here is to check with a lawyer if, in the case where those PM are released, pirate or any user can sue the people responsible for that.

[niko]

I would prefer to release the PMs to police instead, but they're apparently not interested since they haven't contacted me yet.

In most cases I would release the PMs of 100% proven scammers to police (proven at the same level as what I require for IP release, not the level for scammer tags). This was such a large scam that I'd like to help the investigation proceed even without police interest.

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish? "Investigations" without the police in these kinds of matters may lead to... what? More wasted time for everyone, spiritual insights, self-reflections, what? If you are aware of PMs that may be evidence of someone's (not just Pirateat40's) criminal actions, or planned criminal actions in the future - go ahead and file a police report. 

[stochastic]

I love the logic:

Won't send them to the SEC because they might use it to go after 3rd parties.

Will release it to a single person because they signed a nondisclosure agreement.

There is no way to know if BCB would just send the data to the SEC.  Even if he or she did, will the NDA be taken up in court?  Probably not.  Instead just release all the data publicly, but theymos should also release all his PMs as well.

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Hmm theymdos, why don't you give me your PMs to me under a NDA and I'll have a look through it?

[molecular]

What is the goal of releasing the PMs?  

- Locate pirateat40
- Prosecute pirateat40 when he is found. (If courts accept the PMs as evidence.)
- See if pirateat40 had any accomplices. Maybe some of the passthrough operators were told by pirateat40 that this was a Ponzi scheme, but continued lying to people about it.

Are we the police now? Who is going to locate pirateat40 and/or conduct an investigation?

If you think someone has broken the law, the "normal" procedure is to go to the police and file a report and or sue or whatever, not to take justice into your own hands. I think you're even obligated (at least in most countries), once you have knowledge of a crime, to report it.

I know the Bitcoin world is a bit like the Wild West... but even they had sheriffs and judges (however impartial these might've been)

[flower1024]

please dont publish my one pm to pirateat40.
it does not contain any hints to find him - its just what i have "invested" with him and i want to keep that information private

thanks

[BadBear]

please dont publish my one pm to pirateat40.
it does not contain any hints to find him - its just what i have "invested" with him and i want to keep that information private

thanks

That's exactly what we want to avoid.

[flower1024]

please dont publish my one pm to pirateat40.
it does not contain any hints to find him - its just what i have "invested" with him and i want to keep that information private

thanks

That's exactly what we want to avoid.

sorry i am confused.
what exactly do you want to avoid?

do you want to avoid publishing "pirate investment" information? - and yes: this would include sec.

or do you want to avoid HIDING investment information so the sec can get the most accurate data?

i really wish i had never send that pm...