Thanks USA!

[firefop]

How is that electricity generated though, the stuff that isn't imported?  Solyndra was sure a grand slam eh?  I don't believe there's many new nuke plants being built in the States is there, I know of two?  

I submit that electric powered vehicles, let alone hydrogen powered vehicles, will not be mainstream for decades if at all.  Chevy Volt failed so spectacularly they stopped making them.  One can buy two nice compact cars for what a Nissan Leaf costs, ditto for a Mitsubishi Miev.   Or is Obama and JP Morgan going to give them away like cell phones and food stamps?  When was the last time you saw a hydrogen fuel cell-powered car driving around?  Just the infrastructure alone to service these vehicles on a national basis will take who knows how many years to build out.  Talk about limited in scope.

Oh and I agree LFTR sounds amazing and safe too but it's still just conceptual isn't it?

Further to MoonShadows great points, here's some analysis of the issue of america's energy self-sufficiency and the IEA's projections.  Lauren Lyster isn't hard to take either.

Coal. Interestingly enough, I don't think anyone in power is going to attempt to make the US into a net energy producer... and coal is one of obama's targets. Don't worry over the next 4 years you'll see a real economic collapse in this county.

[1715298112]

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[1715298112]

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[Jaw3bmasters]

Don't worry over the next 4 years you'll see a real economic collapse in this county.

Will there be a flood by any chance?

The State of the union is strong and will continue to strengthen.

[Haole]

The State of the union is strong and will continue to strengthen.

That's why there are petitions to secede circulating in most if not all states with some garnering significant support and 50 million people aren't rioting and looting because they get free cell phones and food with the swipe of an EBT card right?

Thanks firefop, I realize half the energy supplied domestically is from coal-fired generation.  I was trying to make a point with my question that clean, green, renewable energy and roads filled with over-priced electric and fuel cell vehicles is absolutely not in the cards from what I can gather.

Here's a list of examples why the utopian green clean-energy future for the U.S. is a propagandized pipe dream after throwing tens of billions in stimulus and tax credits at now struggling or bankrupt energy companies, some due in whole or in part to domestic regulation and trade tariffs imposed by their own government themselves.  Ridiculous really.  

[MoonShadow]

How is that electricity generated though, the stuff that isn't imported?  Solyndra was sure a grand slam eh?  I don't believe there's many new nuke plants being built in the States is there, I know of two?  

I submit that electric powered vehicles, let alone hydrogen powered vehicles, will not be mainstream for decades if at all.  Chevy Volt failed so spectacularly they stopped making them.  One can buy two nice compact cars for what a Nissan Leaf costs, ditto for a Mitsubishi Miev.   Or is Obama and JP Morgan going to give them away like cell phones and food stamps?  When was the last time you saw a hydrogen fuel cell-powered car driving around?  Just the infrastructure alone to service these vehicles on a national basis will take who knows how many years to build out.  Talk about limited in scope.

Oh and I agree LFTR sounds amazing and safe too but it's still just conceptual isn't it?

Further to MoonShadows great points, here's some analysis of the issue of america's energy self-sufficiency and the IEA's projections.  Lauren Lyster isn't hard to take either.

Coal. Interestingly enough, I don't think anyone in power is going to attempt to make the US into a net energy producer... and coal is one of obama's targets. Don't worry over the next 4 years you'll see a real economic collapse in this county.

Four years?  I give it less than two.

[firefop]

Four years?  I give it less than two.

You sir are underestimating the mainstream medias ability to brainwash the liberal/stupid/young/senile (read general) population. They'll do what they always do, blow smoke until someone they don't like is in a position to take the fall.

So while anyone with a brain will know that's it's happening well before it becomes generally accepted or reports... internationally (for the most part) and domestically it won't "actually happen" until Obama is out of office.

[firefop]

The State of the union is strong and will continue to strengthen.

That's why there are petitions to secede circulating in most if not all states with some garnering significant support and 50 million people aren't rioting and looting because they get free cell phones and food with the swipe of an EBT card right?

Thanks firefop, I realize half the energy supplied domestically is from coal-fired generation.  I was trying to make a point with my question that clean, green, renewable energy and roads filled with over-priced electric and fuel cell vehicles is absolutely not in the cards from what I can gather.

Here's a list of examples why the utopian green clean-energy future for the U.S. is a propagandized pipe dream after throwing tens of billions in stimulus and tax credits at now struggling or bankrupt energy companies, some due in whole or in part to domestic regulation and trade tariffs imposed by their own government themselves.  Ridiculous really.  

Nice link 

I think the thing is... we aren't incapable of doing it.. it's just that the powers that be don't really have it on the agenda at all... 'green' is just another way to sneak in silly legislation and more taxes. Cap and Trade isn't even about green, it's just another excuse to pile even more taxes on the (rapidly shrinking?) segment of the country who actually produces something of value. The saddest part about it, is I don't really think the vast majority of leftists are actually evil... they've just been 'educated' in the misapplication of logic.

Secession movements worry me in general, once that starts happening - it may well become impossible to get into any of the places that leave - Maybe I should move to texas before it happens. Meanwhile, the left is trying to get a 51st state... even more chance for voter fraud.

[myrkul]

Secession movements worry me in general, once that starts happening - it may well become impossible to get into any of the places that leave - Maybe I should move to texas before it happens.

No such thing as a closed border. Interstate ones are so ridiculously porous that they would literally need to build a wall to keep anyone from crossing.

[stochastic]

Why is everyone so surprised at legalization of weed? This has been coming for a long time. Even my mother-in-law in Washington voted for legalization. The real question is "why was it ever illegal?"

Yes finally, in the 21st century with... Iran? wtf.

[firefop]

No such thing as a closed border. Interstate ones are so ridiculously porous that they would literally need to build a wall to keep anyone from crossing.

I'm fairly sure that if a state did try to leave, that the federal government would instantly impose all sorts of sanctions against them and probably bomb the hell out of them... The very best thing we could hope for in that scenario is the national guard on the border to keep the state contained... but that really isn't likely either.

[myrkul]

No such thing as a closed border. Interstate ones are so ridiculously porous that they would literally need to build a wall to keep anyone from crossing.

I'm fairly sure that if a state did try to leave, that the federal government would instantly impose all sorts of sanctions against them and probably bomb the hell out of them... The very best thing we could hope for in that scenario is the national guard on the border to keep the state contained... but that really isn't likely either.

That's a second Civil War. After the fiasco the first one was, I don't know if they'd be willing to try a second one. And "bomb the hell out of"... whom? The state legislature?

[stochastic]

No such thing as a closed border. Interstate ones are so ridiculously porous that they would literally need to build a wall to keep anyone from crossing.

I'm fairly sure that if a state did try to leave, that the federal government would instantly impose all sorts of sanctions against them and probably bomb the hell out of them... The very best thing we could hope for in that scenario is the national guard on the border to keep the state contained... but that really isn't likely either.

That's a second Civil War. After the fiasco the first one was, I don't know if they'd be willing to try a second one. And "bomb the hell out of"... whom? The state legislature?

The United States should be expanding its borders, not bickering over how to crack an egg.

[myrkul]

No such thing as a closed border. Interstate ones are so ridiculously porous that they would literally need to build a wall to keep anyone from crossing.

I'm fairly sure that if a state did try to leave, that the federal government would instantly impose all sorts of sanctions against them and probably bomb the hell out of them... The very best thing we could hope for in that scenario is the national guard on the border to keep the state contained... but that really isn't likely either.

That's a second Civil War. After the fiasco the first one was, I don't know if they'd be willing to try a second one. And "bomb the hell out of"... whom? The state legislature?

The United States should be expanding its borders, not bickering over how to crack an egg.

I'm a fan of small governments... very small governments. Single person governments. No need to "expand borders" when we should be removing them.

[lebing]

The State of the union is strong and will continue to strengthen.

That's why there are petitions to secede circulating in most if not all states with some garnering significant support and 50 million people aren't rioting and looting because they get free cell phones and food with the swipe of an EBT card right?

Thanks firefop, I realize half the energy supplied domestically is from coal-fired generation.  I was trying to make a point with my question that clean, green, renewable energy and roads filled with over-priced electric and fuel cell vehicles is absolutely not in the cards from what I can gather.

Here's a list of examples why the utopian green clean-energy future for the U.S. is a propagandized pipe dream after throwing tens of billions in stimulus and tax credits at now struggling or bankrupt energy companies, some due in whole or in part to domestic regulation and trade tariffs imposed by their own government themselves.  Ridiculous really.  

What is that link supposed to prove exactly? That they received tax money? Yep, they did. Do many of them fail? Yep, most start ups fail, especially those that are technology oriented and that are heavily vulnerable to political dynamics. The problem isn't the technology, nor funding, its the completely fucked corporatocracy we have which determines policy in this country.

"from 80 percent to 100 percent of Germany’s electricity will come from renewable sources by 2050... Germans are baffled that the United States has not taken the same path. Not only is the U.S. the wealthiest nation in the world, but it’s also credited with jump-starting Germany’s green movement 40 years ago."http://www.livetradingnews.com/100-renewable-energy-in-germany-93980.htm#.UKnL-OOe9gx

[firefop]

No such thing as a closed border. Interstate ones are so ridiculously porous that they would literally need to build a wall to keep anyone from crossing.

I'm fairly sure that if a state did try to leave, that the federal government would instantly impose all sorts of sanctions against them and probably bomb the hell out of them... The very best thing we could hope for in that scenario is the national guard on the border to keep the state contained... but that really isn't likely either.

That's a second Civil War. After the fiasco the first one was, I don't know if they'd be willing to try a second one. And "bomb the hell out of"... whom? The state legislature?

No need to kill anyone directly. War 101 dictates that they'd simple decimate the production capacity of the rebel state. Without any way to produce anything and no ability to grow food once the oil reserves ran out... you'd have them back into the fold in a few years tops.

[stochastic]

No such thing as a closed border. Interstate ones are so ridiculously porous that they would literally need to build a wall to keep anyone from crossing.

I'm fairly sure that if a state did try to leave, that the federal government would instantly impose all sorts of sanctions against them and probably bomb the hell out of them... The very best thing we could hope for in that scenario is the national guard on the border to keep the state contained... but that really isn't likely either.

That's a second Civil War. After the fiasco the first one was, I don't know if they'd be willing to try a second one. And "bomb the hell out of"... whom? The state legislature?

The United States should be expanding its borders, not bickering over how to crack an egg.

I'm a fan of small governments... very small governments. Single person governments. No need to "expand borders" when we should be removing them.

If you expand a border large enough, then there is no more border.

[myrkul]

No such thing as a closed border. Interstate ones are so ridiculously porous that they would literally need to build a wall to keep anyone from crossing.

I'm fairly sure that if a state did try to leave, that the federal government would instantly impose all sorts of sanctions against them and probably bomb the hell out of them... The very best thing we could hope for in that scenario is the national guard on the border to keep the state contained... but that really isn't likely either.

That's a second Civil War. After the fiasco the first one was, I don't know if they'd be willing to try a second one. And "bomb the hell out of"... whom? The state legislature?

The United States should be expanding its borders, not bickering over how to crack an egg.

I'm a fan of small governments... very small governments. Single person governments. No need to "expand borders" when we should be removing them.

If you expand a border large enough, then there is no more border.

The same could be said for shrinking borders.

[stochastic]

No such thing as a closed border. Interstate ones are so ridiculously porous that they would literally need to build a wall to keep anyone from crossing.

I'm fairly sure that if a state did try to leave, that the federal government would instantly impose all sorts of sanctions against them and probably bomb the hell out of them... The very best thing we could hope for in that scenario is the national guard on the border to keep the state contained... but that really isn't likely either.

That's a second Civil War. After the fiasco the first one was, I don't know if they'd be willing to try a second one. And "bomb the hell out of"... whom? The state legislature?

The United States should be expanding its borders, not bickering over how to crack an egg.

I'm a fan of small governments... very small governments. Single person governments. No need to "expand borders" when we should be removing them.

If you expand a border large enough, then there is no more border.

The same could be said for shrinking borders.

If everyone had their own border then that would not eliminate them, it would just multiply them.

[Slab Squathrust]

I have read an interesting analysis (commercial) on obama, energy and economics (I can share this with you but its a commercial letter that was intended to make people sign up for commercial analytics).
Bottom line was, obama is in the right place at the right time which will most probably make him to the most popular president of the united states in history.

LOL!  While that goal actually shouldn't be a very hard target to hit, the mere luck of being in office when domestic oil production experiences a resurgence isn't likely to come close to that goal.  And the reports that fraking can make the US energy independent, before or after 2025, is silly cheerleading.  All the assumptions are to the unrealisticly-favorable end of the spectrum, including growth patterns in domestic demand itself.

Also, this new tech doesn't actually grant us more oil than we had, it just means that more of it is extractable.  That does not mean that all that is extractable is economicly viable, much less a net-positive energy gain.  Much like how corn based ethanol takes about as much energy to create as is extractable, there is a point at which it becomes counterproductive energy-wise to continue to extract more oil from the ground & refine it to a point that it's usable in current engine technology.  There is no doubt that more oil is extractable with fraking, but not all of that is of a quality to make that worthwhile.  The Tar sands oil is one example, it's of a particularly low quality that requires much more effort in refinement than what is commonly available from OPEC.

Furthermore, the ills that way upon the current economy have little to do with the availablity of energy, and much to do with the final stages of faulty economic theories used at national levels.  Europe will break apart again, and the cost of oil isn't going to matter a great deal on that front.  When this happens, the US will also be stressed to great levels.  The global economy is far to intergrated these days in order for the US to 'decouple' from Europe in the way that we did following WWII.  This one's going to hurt no matter what the price of oil is.

I agree that the talk of energy independence is in about 15 years is probably over exxagerated, but you should go see the things they are doing in the Bakken and Three Forks formation up in ND and Eastern Montana.  New wells are coming online every single day.  If the geologists are correct ND has larger reserves than Saudi Arabia.  The Three forks formation was just discovered a few years back, so technically the US was "granted more oil".   Further the oil from these formations is as high quality as anything coming out of the middle east and far superior to the tar sands.  Wells in this area typically produce oil for approximately 30 years.  In fact there are wells still in operation from the last oil boom in the early 1980's.  Hydraulic fracturing is not what allowed the expansion of drilling in this area, but a technique know as horizontal drilling.  Fraccing was used in the area during the last boom too.  With the new technique, essentially the well is drilled down two miles and then is drilled two miles horizontally through the formation.  Fraccing is then used to release the oil from the shale.  

You mention that this oil may be uneconomical to recover.  This is only partially true.  While a well is expensive to drill the costs are recovered in the first few months of operation.  The cost of this oil comes from transport.  People I have spoken with peg it around $22 a barrel to ship due to lack of pipeline capacity, meaning most of the oil is shipped by rail.  As long as oil prices are high this isn't a problem.  However should the price fall it could become economical due to shipping concerns.  The proposed Keystone XL pipeline was supposed to have a load station in montana for some of this oil.  However, many people in the area speculate it was nixed due to pressure from Obama's good friend, Warren Buffet.  Berkshire Hathaway owns a 100% stake in Burlington northern Santa Fey railroad that benefits greatly from the increased rail traffic.      

 

[myrkul]

No such thing as a closed border. Interstate ones are so ridiculously porous that they would literally need to build a wall to keep anyone from crossing.

I'm fairly sure that if a state did try to leave, that the federal government would instantly impose all sorts of sanctions against them and probably bomb the hell out of them... The very best thing we could hope for in that scenario is the national guard on the border to keep the state contained... but that really isn't likely either.

That's a second Civil War. After the fiasco the first one was, I don't know if they'd be willing to try a second one. And "bomb the hell out of"... whom? The state legislature?

The United States should be expanding its borders, not bickering over how to crack an egg.

I'm a fan of small governments... very small governments. Single person governments. No need to "expand borders" when we should be removing them.

If you expand a border large enough, then there is no more border.

The same could be said for shrinking borders.

If everyone had their own border then that would not eliminate them, it would just multiply them.

It's called "skin," and everyone already has it. Unless you'd rather see humanity melded into one gigantic jell-o mold-like mass?

[Haole]

@firefop and lebing

Exactly gents, I totally agree with everything you two said (except for perhaps the "Germany using 80 - 100% 'renewable' energy by 2050" part.  Remains to be seen.  It also quotes the propaganda that the U.S. is going to be "the leading oil and gas producer by 2020" schtick).  

As for what that link is supposed to represent lebing, you said it yourself.  I know return you to the engineered destruction and neo-Marxist overthrow of the U.S. of A.