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Author Topic: Will mining become more or less centralised?  (Read 2980 times)
ldrgn
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November 12, 2012, 05:10:06 PM
 #21

While mathematically the two are doing the same on a practical human level it's really not sensible to say that the average human being will be happy spending time and energy making sure their machine is up and running 24/7, checking that their wallet is working and accruing as it should be, getting on an exchange and converting to fiat for the equivalent amount of money a day that most people probably lose between their carseats after buying a drive-thru fast food meal. I just don't see it as likely that people are really that interested in pennies as dollars, but perhaps that's just my slanted view.

Imagine you're a bank that sells value-added Bitcoin services - you're probably willing to mine at breakeven or a slight loss because it's a loss leader and you make your money off of the services.  Any miners running at a loss very slowly squeeze the miners willing to run at a profit out of business.

Anyway, the discussions in this thread have all been warmed over many times by economists before.  Bitcoin mining is a textbook example of a perfectly competitive market.  In the long run margins are razor-thin to not existant and the thousands of miners we have today will be driven down to a few.
Bitcoin mining is now a specialized and very risky industry, just like gold mining. Amateur miners are unlikely to make much money, and may even lose money. Bitcoin is much more than just mining, though!
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bcpokey
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November 12, 2012, 05:48:47 PM
 #22

While mathematically the two are doing the same on a practical human level it's really not sensible to say that the average human being will be happy spending time and energy making sure their machine is up and running 24/7, checking that their wallet is working and accruing as it should be, getting on an exchange and converting to fiat for the equivalent amount of money a day that most people probably lose between their carseats after buying a drive-thru fast food meal. I just don't see it as likely that people are really that interested in pennies as dollars, but perhaps that's just my slanted view.

Imagine you're a bank that sells value-added Bitcoin services - you're probably willing to mine at breakeven or a slight loss because it's a loss leader and you make your money off of the services.  Any miners running at a loss very slowly squeeze the miners willing to run at a profit out of business.

Anyway, the discussions in this thread have all been warmed over many times by economists before.  Bitcoin mining is a textbook example of a perfectly competitive market.  In the long run margins are razor-thin to not existant and the thousands of miners we have today will be driven down to a few.

I'm not a fan of arm-chair economics, but only time will tell if they pan out. A bank selling at whatever as a loss-leader is completely different from an individual middle-class homeowner, if you were replying to the comment which you quoted. Apples and oranges.
thoughtfan (OP)
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November 13, 2012, 06:48:59 AM
 #23

Imagine you're a bank that sells value-added Bitcoin services - you're probably willing to mine at breakeven or a slight loss because it's a loss leader and you make your money off of the services.  Any miners running at a loss very slowly squeeze the miners willing to run at a profit out of business.

First if you don't mind I'll group your loss-leader scenario with the idea of mining equipment manufacturers large-scale mining themselves and call them 'party spoilers'.  I am more persuaded having discussed the latter with bcpokey and others further up the thread that it is not entirely unfeasible that this should occur.  I can also see circumstances much further down the line being such that the loss-leader scenario comes to be.  There are probably other 'party spoilers' to add to these two too that could come along and change the  dynamics that have been driving the market to date and will do so again after the introduction of ASICs1

I think there is some value though in looking at what is likely to happen in the absence of the rulebook being thrown out of the window by game-changers.  Is the trend more likely to drive towards smaller numbers of large mining operations or larger numbers of small mining operations?

Anyway, the discussions in this thread have all been warmed over many times by economists before.  Bitcoin mining is a textbook example of a perfectly competitive market.  In the long run margins are razor-thin to not existant and the thousands of miners we have today will be driven down to a few.

I'm not finding it hard to accept, given the discussions I've read and participated in so far, that Bitcoin mining is pretty much a 'perfectly competitive market' - even though I acknowledge this is by no means accepted comprehensively across the boards.  But as you say, the 'perfect market' thing is about profit margins heading close to and staying at near zero.  It may be historically (in the history of economics, not in the history of Bitcoin) that where this is the case the number of players almost always diminishes seriously too but nobody proclaiming this as a probable outcome has yet given me a reason to believe this is a likely fate for Bitcoin mining.

The key difference I see is the lack of economies of scale.  Mining gear manufacturers have a serious disincentive to be selling at volume discounts because of the peculiar aspect of mining that each unit sold diminishes potential sales value of future sales indefinitely.  We don't have to imagine this because it is evident today in the price of pre-order ASICs.  I'd like someone to give me another example of a 'production line tool'  where someone spending $60,000 is paying virtually the same 'per output unit capacity' as someone paying $600.  Where is the advantage of the big player here?  There's also a level playing field in sales price of Bitcoin; there's no potential for 'exclusive deals' with customers to prevent them from buying from the competition.  On top of that, any discounts in electricity prices that may be enjoyed by massive operations is counterbalanced by the lack of other overheads for the hobbyist or 'homesteader' miner.  Please tell me what force you foresee playing the role of pushing the little man out of the game?  I still can't see it.  The 'perfect market' pushes out the less efficient but if breakeven point and longer-term ROI are virtually the same regardless of scale what has size got to do with who wins?

bcpokey gives an example of someone earning so little from their small rig that they can't be bothered to leave it switched on.  But if ROI is the same, isn't it just as likely that someone with half a millinon's worth of gear will also take their attention and money to something more attractive?  But due to the 'perfect market' ever driving towards efficiency, for every person making what is in the pure sense an 'illogical' decision (though personal circumstances may make it a good decision for them) there'll be someone else taking advantage of it and driving margins back to near zero.

Unless a 'party spoiler' comes along which would make both biggest and smallest miners also-rans, the current  circumstance is likely to be around for at least some time.  This leaves me still lacking reason to believe that there's something within the model that is going to drive out the small guy - just for being small - nor that there's something that's going to make success easier for the big guy - by virtue of being big.

Thoughts?

1 Right now we are sort-of in limbo in that whilst ASICs are being invested in they're not (directly) affecting difficulty and indicators such as difficulty following price are out of the window for the time being.
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November 14, 2012, 04:07:16 AM
 #24

If centralization is a concern, I would like to suggest that as new data is gathered a blog is made to track the trends that would lead to mining becoming overly centralized. Then we won't have to beat this dead horse any more. I for one would enjoy reading it on occasion.

Centralization is bad. It is something miners should be concerned with.

Now we need some plans of action based on data backed facts.
IMHO.

Cheers.

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thoughtfan (OP)
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November 14, 2012, 06:24:20 AM
 #25

Centralization is bad. It is something miners should be concerned with.

...we need some plans of action based on data backed facts.

I would like to suggest that as new data is gathered a blog is made to track the trends that would lead to mining becoming overly centralized.
+1

I think that would make interesting reading and would be useful to see trends within the current1 model.

Then we won't have to beat this dead horse any more.
I don't see this as being a dead horse.  The reason I started the thread was because it's one of those topics for which people seem to have opposing opinions which also didn't, at least in the threads I was coming across, have links referring back to earlier..

...discussions [on this topic] have all been warmed over many times by economists before.

Had I been able to follow the trail, not only to a consensus but to the reasoned debate that lead to that consensus I would not have started the thread2.  Many who have been around some time may well have heard enough to come to and to be happy with their own conclusions.  I was not confident enough by what I could garner that I wasn't missing something obvious so I asked - and have consequently learned thanks to the discussion that ensued.  And if this thread facilitated my getting to a better understanding it may also for others.

1 If we're talking trends rather than apparently random jumps then although it would be interesting to see figures from the cpu/gpu/fpga eras I guess the trends from when the ASIC landscape can first be ascertained is what will potentially have the most predictive value.

2 An example of a topic where I was able, by following the trail of links, find what I needed to without having to ask was whether difficulty follows price, price follows difficulty, whether they both follow something else, whether there's an interdependency and what circumstances may lead to exceptional behaviours that throw the patterns out.
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November 14, 2012, 06:36:40 AM
 #26

If centralization is a concern, I would like to suggest that as new data is gathered a blog is made to track the trends that would lead to mining becoming overly centralized. Then we won't have to beat this dead horse any more. I for one would enjoy reading it on occasion.

Centralization is bad. It is something miners should be concerned with.

Now we need some plans of action based on data backed facts.
IMHO.

Cheers.

Would this suffice? http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/chart.php
Shows the pools (each operator presumably being indepentant), and the "unknown" - which may be a collection of solo miners (including ASIC manufacturers).

They're there, in their room.
Your mining rig is on fire, yet you're very calm.
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November 15, 2012, 11:11:55 PM
 #27

If centralization is a concern, I would like to suggest that as new data is gathered a blog is made to track the trends that would lead to mining becoming overly centralized. Then we won't have to beat this dead horse any more. I for one would enjoy reading it on occasion.

Centralization is bad. It is something miners should be concerned with.

Now we need some plans of action based on data backed facts.
IMHO.

Cheers.

Would this suffice? http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/chart.php
Shows the pools (each operator presumably being indepentant), and the "unknown" - which may be a collection of solo miners (including ASIC manufacturers).

Yeah I think this is a good way to evaluate distribution also
organofcorti has a blog on this as well:
http://organofcorti.blogspot.ca/2012/11/11th-november-weekly-pool-statistics.html

However it doesn't get in to the little details. I suppose some nefarious miner could be running 50%+ distributed over the different pools but it is *some* information.

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bobitza
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November 15, 2012, 11:38:18 PM
 #28

Anyway, the discussions in this thread have all been warmed over many times by economists before.  Bitcoin mining is a textbook example of a perfectly competitive market.  In the long run margins are razor-thin to not existant and the thousands of miners we have today will be driven down to a few.

Not entirely true. In the long run, the mining will be dictated by the Gh/W ratios. Since the only operating cost is the price of electricity, the W price will dictate who stays mining and who closes down. As long as the ASICs units have comparable Gh/W ratios, it doesn't matter if you are a miner with let's say, a farm of 1.5 Th rigs or a miner with a jallie at 4.5 Gh running. Both miners will keep them running as long as they pay the same price for electricity and that price is less than the BTC profits. So I expect to have there will be thousands of miners still mining ...

This subject was already discussed in multiple posts.

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niko
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November 16, 2012, 12:14:35 AM
 #29

If centralization is a concern, I would like to suggest that as new data is gathered a blog is made to track the trends that would lead to mining becoming overly centralized. Then we won't have to beat this dead horse any more. I for one would enjoy reading it on occasion.

Centralization is bad. It is something miners should be concerned with.

Now we need some plans of action based on data backed facts.
IMHO.

Cheers.

Would this suffice? http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/chart.php
Shows the pools (each operator presumably being indepentant), and the "unknown" - which may be a collection of solo miners (including ASIC manufacturers).

Yeah I think this is a good way to evaluate distribution also
organofcorti has a blog on this as well:
http://organofcorti.blogspot.ca/2012/11/11th-november-weekly-pool-statistics.html

However it doesn't get in to the little details. I suppose some nefarious miner could be running 50%+ distributed over the different pools but it is *some* information.
How would you perform a 50%+ disruption if you are mining in pools? You would have no say whatsoever on what operators dowith the blocks. You'd need to go solo, and that would show as "unknown" in the data I quoted.

They're there, in their room.
Your mining rig is on fire, yet you're very calm.
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November 16, 2012, 02:31:25 AM
 #30

People will still mine bitcoins regardless of the profitability factor.

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November 16, 2012, 02:58:47 AM
 #31

If centralization is a concern, I would like to suggest that as new data is gathered a blog is made to track the trends that would lead to mining becoming overly centralized. Then we won't have to beat this dead horse any more. I for one would enjoy reading it on occasion.

Centralization is bad. It is something miners should be concerned with.

Now we need some plans of action based on data backed facts.
IMHO.

Cheers.

Would this suffice? http://blockorigin.pfoe.be/chart.php
Shows the pools (each operator presumably being indepentant), and the "unknown" - which may be a collection of solo miners (including ASIC manufacturers).

Yeah I think this is a good way to evaluate distribution also
organofcorti has a blog on this as well:
http://organofcorti.blogspot.ca/2012/11/11th-november-weekly-pool-statistics.html

However it doesn't get in to the little details. I suppose some nefarious miner could be running 50%+ distributed over the different pools but it is *some* information.
How would you perform a 50%+ disruption if you are mining in pools? You would have no say whatsoever on what operators dowith the blocks. You'd need to go solo, and that would show as "unknown" in the data I quoted.

A 50% attack would have no distinguishing signs until after it is executed.
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November 16, 2012, 02:53:48 PM
 #32

People will still mine bitcoins regardless of the profitability factor.

That's not logical.

If I spend 2 BTCs to mine 1 BTC ... it's only logical to stop mining until BTC prices rise and/or difficulty comes down and/or I get free electricity, etc.

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thoughtfan (OP)
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November 16, 2012, 08:46:07 PM
 #33

People will still mine bitcoins regardless of the profitability factor.

That's not logical.

If I spend 2 BTCs to mine 1 BTC ... it's only logical to stop mining until BTC prices rise and/or difficulty comes down and/or I get free electricity, etc.

Surely not?  If difficulty goes up such that mining is not profitable at current prices it the 'only sensible thing to do is to switch off' applies i) if one needs to sell mined coin immediately to cover electricity costs; ii) if one believes price:difficulty ration is not going to get better; iii) if profit is more highly valued than the joy of knowing the contribution to the bitcoin economy that is being made.

Of course, on average price is likely to reflect people taking the 'sensible' choice but it doesn't necessarily mean each individual is programmed to follow what market rules tell them they should do moment-by-moment.
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November 21, 2012, 04:27:30 PM
 #34

They have a saying in stock trading: "the market can stay illogical more time than you can stay solvent" ... or something like this.

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thoughtfan (OP)
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November 21, 2012, 10:29:09 PM
 #35

They have a saying in stock trading: "the market can stay illogical more time than you can stay solvent" ... or something like this.
I like that one, thanks Smiley

I don't think we have an essential disagreement here. I just wanted to draw attention to my opinion that things like belief in the longer-term rise of BTC v. USD and desire to support the project mean there are more factors at play in the decision whether or not to switch off a mining rig than there are in the vast majority of trades going on in the comparatively ultra-liquid trades of the professional trading game where nothing but profit counts.
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