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Author Topic: history repeating itself... Greek society in free-fall  (Read 2224 times)
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November 13, 2012, 10:03:29 AM
 #1

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h-uko85LmSN-HjBmPo-Kx7X8kAOg?docId=fbec5c4106f54b6382d8811ff85b3155
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November 13, 2012, 02:40:59 PM
Last edit: November 13, 2012, 10:22:05 PM by jl2035
 #2

This is shocking...

I was in Greece this year in september. Well not actually Greece but Corfu.
We had a very nice time, bars and restaurants were open, beaches were nice and the greek people didn't look so desperate. But of course that's all from a tourist perspective.

All the time during that week I was dreaming that Corfu could become a first "Bitcoin oasis". Can you imagine.. it's a very small island and it wouldn't be to hard to convince all those little businesses to just accept BTC. In the first summer season there will be a massive invasion... All bitcoiners would want to spend their summer vications in Corfu... where they could sleep, eat and drink for BTC... and besides that: it's a beautiful island...

After that people will see the advantages of crypto currency and I bet that this way of thinking would spread all over Greece.

hm.. nice... I wrote something positive based on that sad sad story from the news.

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November 13, 2012, 07:03:13 PM
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It breaks my heart when I read this story while being 100% certain that in the end the solution to all these problems will be found in violence that caused the problems in the first place i.e. in a small gang of thugs enforcing arbitrary rules through violence robbing people of their freedom and wealth i.e. a democratic government.

Will they ever learn?  Undecided

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November 13, 2012, 07:43:43 PM
 #4

Will they ever learn?  Undecided

Hope springs eternal.

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November 13, 2012, 07:52:52 PM
 #5

This austerity plan is crap and is going to aggravate the problem. It's like using leeches to cure sickness, it only makes the problem worse.

When the economy is bad, that's when government have to inject money and subsidize their citizens so they can live through it. When the economy gets better and is growing, that is the moment where you pay your debts and you make savings. It's the whole point of a government, it's to serve, protect and help their citizens. If the economy is booming, government help can be superfluous, since people can make it by themselves with the tons of opportunities. But when the country is in crisis, the government has to back you up. Now, because they're cutting everywhere, they have judges who work 1h a day, tons of unemployed people and a population without any hope. It's the perfect formula for an armed revolution.

You cannot manage a country like you manage a business, but sadly, that's what they're trying to do.  Sad
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November 13, 2012, 08:38:46 PM
 #6

They cannot inject money as you say.
They don't own their own money.

My anger against what is wrong in the Bitcoin community is productive:
Bitcointa.lk - Replace "Bitcointalk.org" with "Bitcointa.lk" in this url to see how this page looks like on a proper forum (Announcement Thread)
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November 13, 2012, 09:13:34 PM
 #7

This austerity plan is crap and is going to aggravate the problem. It's like using leeches to cure sickness, it only makes the problem worse.

When the economy is bad, that's when government have to inject money and subsidize their citizens so they can live through it. When the economy gets better and is growing, that is the moment where you pay your debts and you make savings. It's the whole point of a government, it's to serve, protect and help their citizens. If the economy is booming, government help can be superfluous, since people can make it by themselves with the tons of opportunities. But when the country is in crisis, the government has to back you up. Now, because they're cutting everywhere, they have judges who work 1h a day, tons of unemployed people and a population without any hope. It's the perfect formula for an armed revolution.

You cannot manage a country like you manage a business, but sadly, that's what they're trying to do.  Sad

What a bunch of garbage this post is.  Roll Eyes I'm not even going to attempt to point out all the sophistry and idiocy in it.

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November 13, 2012, 09:34:38 PM
 #8


'ATHENS, Greece (AP) — A sign taped to a wall in an Athens hospital appealed for civility from patients. "The doctors on duty have been unpaid since May," it read, "Please respect their work."'

LOLantisocialized health care.  This is the endgame:

http://mises.org/daily/3650

OTOH, places like this are ripe for agorism.  Bitcoin has great potential here.
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November 13, 2012, 09:39:08 PM
 #9

It breaks my heart when I read this story while being 100% certain that in the end the solution to all these problems will be found in violence that caused the problems in the first place i.e. in a small gang of thugs enforcing arbitrary rules through violence robbing people of their freedom and wealth i.e. a democratic government.

Will they ever learn?  Undecided

Greece is the great-grandparent of the very concept of the modern State. They have repeated the same poisonous charade for about three thousand years, failing again and again.

Three thousand years.  That's 300 generations of humans, doing the same destructive shit over and over, like lunatics, unaware that the very thing they worship is what keeps destroying them.

I do not hold any hope that they will learn.  In fact, I think they'll just murder each other, completely oblivious to what really ails their society, as the rulers who engineered this disaster and profited from it quietly laugh all the way to the European Central Bank.

For those who defend the State with cries of "what about the poor": tell us, o magnanimous examples of generosity with other people's money, what about the poor now, as the State inevitably collapses?
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November 13, 2012, 09:47:16 PM
 #10

It breaks my heart when I read this story while being 100% certain that in the end the solution to all these problems will be found in violence that caused the problems in the first place i.e. in a small gang of thugs enforcing arbitrary rules through violence robbing people of their freedom and wealth i.e. a democratic government.

Will they ever learn?  Undecided

Greece is the great-grandparent of the very concept of the modern State. They have repeated the same poisonous charade for about three thousand years, failing again and again.

Three thousand years.  That's 300 generations of humans, doing the same destructive shit over and over, like lunatics, unaware that the very thing they worship is what keeps destroying them.

I do not hold any hope that they will learn.  In fact, I think they'll just murder each other, completely oblivious to what really ails their society, as the rulers who engineered this disaster and profited from it quietly laugh all the way to the European Central Bank.

For those who defend the State with cries of "what about the poor": tell us, o magnanimous examples of generosity with other people's money, what about the poor now, as the State inevitably collapses?

Well said.

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November 13, 2012, 09:48:45 PM
 #11

They cannot inject money as you say.
They don't own their own money.

Yeah, that's the worst part of it. I really think some Euro countries needs to step forward and inject money in the Greek system. The boat is leaking, they're all in the same economy, they have to patch, even at loss. They're going to implode the whole euro zone simply because they don't want to "lose" money with Greece.

What a bunch of garbage this post is.  Roll Eyes I'm not even going to attempt to point out all the sophistry and idiocy in it.

If you're going to insult people instead of debating, get lost. You're not interesting.

Here is what a economist and nobel prize winner is thinking about all that:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/10/17/stiglitz-greece-and-spain-are-in-depression/
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November 13, 2012, 09:49:38 PM
 #12

This austerity plan is crap and is going to aggravate the problem. It's like using leeches to cure sickness, it only makes the problem worse.

When the economy is bad, that's when government have to inject money and subsidize their citizens so they can live through it. When the economy gets better and is growing, that is the moment where you pay your debts and you make savings. It's the whole point of a government, it's to serve, protect and help their citizens. If the economy is booming, government help can be superfluous, since people can make it by themselves with the tons of opportunities. But when the country is in crisis, the government has to back you up. Now, because they're cutting everywhere, they have judges who work 1h a day, tons of unemployed people and a population without any hope. It's the perfect formula for an armed revolution.

You cannot manage a country like you manage a business, but sadly, that's what they're trying to do.  Sad

Has this plan ever been implemented? I mean it may work, but it seems impossible for governments to stop injecting money once they start.
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November 13, 2012, 09:54:54 PM
 #13

They cannot inject money as you say.
They don't own their own money.

Yeah, that's the worst part of it. I really think some Euro countries needs to step forward and inject money in the Greek system. The boat is leaking, they're all in the same economy, they have to patch, even at loss. They're going to implode the whole euro zone simply because they don't want to "lose" money with Greece.

What a bunch of garbage this post is.  Roll Eyes I'm not even going to attempt to point out all the sophistry and idiocy in it.

If you're going to insult people instead of debating, get lost. You're not interesting.

Here is what a economist and nobel prize winner is thinking about all that:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/10/17/stiglitz-greece-and-spain-are-in-depression/

I'll back you up and say I agree completely with your austerity post.  It's a horrible idea.  That's the problem that I have with what happened in the 2000s in the U.S.  After the country was showing a surplus, and unemployment was so low, and the economy was booming in the late 90s, that's when the spending should have been cut, and taxes on the wealthy raised.  Instead we accelerated the increase in debt by massively increasing spending and massively cutting taxes on the wealthy.  Then the complete lack of financial regulation led to the collapse of the worldwide financial industry and the housing debacle we find ourselves digging out of now. 

So basically what happened was we kept spending and low taxes when things were going great, and when they collapsed we had magnified the debt so badly that there wasn't the ability (or will) to massively spend by the government to end the recession (depression?) quickly. 


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November 13, 2012, 09:58:05 PM
 #14

[...]
Three thousand years.  That's 300 generations of humans
[...]

Well said.

yeah ok  Grin
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November 13, 2012, 09:58:56 PM
 #15

This austerity plan is crap and is going to aggravate the problem. It's like using leeches to cure sickness, it only makes the problem worse.

When the economy is bad, that's when government have to inject money and subsidize their citizens so they can live through it. When the economy gets better and is growing, that is the moment where you pay your debts and you make savings. It's the whole point of a government, it's to serve, protect and help their citizens. If the economy is booming, government help can be superfluous, since people can make it by themselves with the tons of opportunities. But when the country is in crisis, the government has to back you up. Now, because they're cutting everywhere, they have judges who work 1h a day, tons of unemployed people and a population without any hope. It's the perfect formula for an armed revolution.

You cannot manage a country like you manage a business, but sadly, that's what they're trying to do.  Sad

Has this plan ever been implemented? I mean it may work, but it seems impossible for governments to stop injecting money once they start.

Some economist said that it has been implemented by accident in the 1930-1940. I can't find the source right now, but the theory of why the USA went from the Great depression to the baby-boom after the WW2 is because the government started subsidizing its society with the war. It was not the alleged goal, but with the war, the government had to subsidize production (for ammos, guns, everything the war effort demanded). It gave people jobs, many projects were build from the war (the biggest is manhattan project, with the nuclear brought new jobs in all domains for example) because the government was continually injecting money in the society.

When the war ended, many people had jobs, money, projects and knowledge. The population was strong enough to continue by itself, and the rest is history.

That's why I tend to agree with right-wingers when a country economy is strong, because the population is strong enough to deal by itself. But when the country is going average or down, I think left-wingers have a better solution, since you can't allow your country to go too deep in a crisis. A country is hard to build and easy to fall.
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November 13, 2012, 10:08:02 PM
 #16

[...]
Three thousand years.  That's 300 generations of humans
[...]

Well said.

yeah ok  Grin

The number may be a little off, but for the most part of mankind, the time to be pregnant with child was beginning of adolescence.  Don't let your modern cultural beliefs color the facts of history.  :-)

Have a nice day!
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November 13, 2012, 10:08:59 PM
 #17

I'll back you up and say I agree completely with your austerity post.  It's a horrible idea.  That's the problem that I have with what happened in the 2000s in the U.S.  After the country was showing a surplus, and unemployment was so low, and the economy was booming in the late 90s, that's when the spending should have been cut, and taxes on the wealthy raised.  Instead we accelerated the increase in debt by massively increasing spending and massively cutting taxes on the wealthy.  Then the complete lack of financial regulation led to the collapse of the worldwide financial industry and the housing debacle we find ourselves digging out of now.  

So basically what happened was we kept spending and low taxes when things were going great, and when they collapsed we had magnified the debt so badly that there wasn't the ability (or will) to massively spend by the government to end the recession (depression?) quickly.  

Bingo!

You're making money and your people is making easy money. Pay those debts and save some money for when the country is going down. Bush trashed all this money in I-don't-know-what and now, you're stuck with a guy trying to repair all the damages.

I love the Norwegian model exactly for that. They found oil and easy money. What do they do? They build one of the biggest fund around here and save money for worst days. Last time I checked, their fund was estimated to 500 billion$. The day they go in crisis, they can simply subsidize their population for a couple of years, waiting for the economy to get better. This country is almost immune to any economic crisis.

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November 14, 2012, 01:37:31 AM
 #18

The number may be a little off, but for the most part of mankind, the time to be pregnant with child was beginning of adolescence.  Don't let your modern cultural beliefs color the facts of history.  :-)

reasonable values are likely 15-20.
i just singled that out because it was just the most obvious part of a post that was "maybe a little off" about everything. talking about greece as a state that has failed again and again for about three thousand years is so totally absurd...
greece, until conquered and systematically ruined by the ottoman empire, was among the most prosperous and developed regions of the world for almost two thousand years.
how the fuck does that constitute failure?
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November 14, 2012, 02:49:14 AM
 #19

The number may be a little off, but for the most part of mankind, the time to be pregnant with child was beginning of adolescence.  Don't let your modern cultural beliefs color the facts of history.  :-)

reasonable values are likely 15-20.
i just singled that out because it was just the most obvious part of a post that was "maybe a little off" about everything. talking about greece as a state that has failed again and again for about three thousand years is so totally absurd...

It is "absurd"?  How exactly?  :-)

greece, until conquered and systematically ruined by the ottoman empire, was among the most prosperous and developed regions of the world for almost two thousand years.
how the fuck does that constitute failure?

Greece, ruined by statism?  NOOOOOOO, YOU DON'T SAY!
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November 14, 2012, 03:56:34 AM
 #20

The damage in Greece is done, the debt basically cannot be paid off without some form of write-down.  The only way forward is to balance the budget at a minimum which they are not doing.

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November 14, 2012, 04:58:13 AM
 #21

This austerity plan is crap and is going to aggravate the problem. It's like using leeches to cure sickness, it only makes the problem worse.

When the economy is bad, that's when government have to inject money and subsidize their citizens so they can live through it. When the economy gets better and is growing, that is the moment where you pay your debts and you make savings. It's the whole point of a government, it's to serve, protect and help their citizens. If the economy is booming, government help can be superfluous, since people can make it by themselves with the tons of opportunities. But when the country is in crisis, the government has to back you up. Now, because they're cutting everywhere, they have judges who work 1h a day, tons of unemployed people and a population without any hope. It's the perfect formula for an armed revolution.

You cannot manage a country like you manage a business, but sadly, that's what they're trying to do.  Sad

Has this plan ever been implemented? I mean it may work, but it seems impossible for governments to stop injecting money once they start.

Some economist said that it has been implemented by accident in the 1930-1940. I can't find the source right now, but the theory of why the USA went from the Great depression to the baby-boom after the WW2 is because the government started subsidizing its society with the war. It was not the alleged goal, but with the war, the government had to subsidize production (for ammos, guns, everything the war effort demanded). It gave people jobs, many projects were build from the war (the biggest is manhattan project, with the nuclear brought new jobs in all domains for example) because the government was continually injecting money in the society.

When the war ended, many people had jobs, money, projects and knowledge. The population was strong enough to continue by itself, and the rest is history.

That's why I tend to agree with right-wingers when a country economy is strong, because the population is strong enough to deal by itself. But when the country is going average or down, I think left-wingers have a better solution, since you can't allow your country to go too deep in a crisis. A country is hard to build and easy to fall.

1) Perhaps it was the war weakening the competition that lead to america"s rise
2) What happened afterward? Did they stop "injecting money"?

If the answer to #2 is yes, I would like to know how you measure this. If it is no, then that is not an example of what you said earlier.



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November 14, 2012, 08:10:53 AM
Last edit: November 14, 2012, 04:54:50 PM by Miles Bennett Dyson
 #22

I'll back you up and say I agree completely with your austerity post.  It's a horrible idea.  That's the problem that I have with what happened in the 2000s in the U.S.  After the country was showing a surplus, and unemployment was so low, and the economy was booming in the late 90s, that's when the spending should have been cut, and taxes on the wealthy raised.  Instead we accelerated the increase in debt by massively increasing spending and massively cutting taxes on the wealthy.  Then the complete lack of financial regulation led to the collapse of the worldwide financial industry and the housing debacle we find ourselves digging out of now.  

So basically what happened was we kept spending and low taxes when things were going great, and when they collapsed we had magnified the debt so badly that there wasn't the ability (or will) to massively spend by the government to end the recession (depression?) quickly.  

Bingo!

You're making money and your people is making easy money. Pay those debts and save some money for when the country is going down. Bush trashed all this money in I-don't-know-what and now, you're stuck with a guy trying to repair all the damages.

I love the Norwegian model exactly for that. They found oil and easy money. What do they do? They build one of the biggest fund around here and save money for worst days. Last time I checked, their fund was estimated to 500 billion$. The day they go in crisis, they can simply subsidize their population for a couple of years, waiting for the economy to get better. This country is almost immune to any economic crisis.




You are right, Norway just surpassed the Arabic oil funds and is now the biggest fund in the world. It is growing by investments alone by 850$ per second or more. As of July 2012 it was 634,753,952,831$.

Edited typo.
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November 14, 2012, 02:17:10 PM
 #23

problem is, whats actually in that fund? dollars?
if you want to save your wealth, you might as well just leave the oil in the ground for the time being. its not like oil is getting cheaper anytime soon.

also, spending money is not always a bad strategy. but very often governments fight depression by spending money rather randomly, for example just giving the ok to every infrastructure project any community presents, no matter how useless it is. having a sound long term plan to spend your extra money is always a good idea.
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November 14, 2012, 11:35:50 PM
 #24


1) Perhaps it was the war weakening the competition that lead to america"s rise
2) What happened afterward? Did they stop "injecting money"?

If the answer to #2 is yes, I would like to know how you measure this. If it is no, then that is not an example of what you said earlier.


1) It surely helped, without any doubt.
2) The war effort ended, so, in a way, they stopped subsidize this war industry and what was related around it. But at that point, people had more skills and qualifications that were acquired during the war. That they continued to inject money or not is irrelevant, since what is important is the capacity of the population to produce something. It's not that hard to measure, since the baby-boom is the best symptom of that era. People had now the capacity to make new things that weren't possible before the war, because they didn't had the skills, assets and investments at that point.

Jobs are created using a mix of knowledge and investments. You can't make a business if you are missing:
-the knowledge or capacity of doing it
-having the basic investments to start it up

If you're lacking jobs, the best thing to do is to teach your population so they can learn and think new things, while providing them the basic investments possibilities. Those two things needs a social intervention, usually provided by a government. In the case of WW2, factories were popping up left and right for the war, and people working in those also learned these jobs. When the war ended, you had many production lines available for any businesses that were subsidized by the government during the war. People had new opportunities that created crazy growth.

When people don't have money, they can't create the investment needed for education or businesses. If the state also cut at the same time, I don't see how you can encourage growth and education. Back in 2008, we were also affected by the economic crisis, and some people had difficulties finding jobs. What happened? Since school fees are really really low (lowest in North America! Cheesy), many people went back to school. When the economy started to recover, the same people had now more knowledge and qualifications, and were doing more valuable work.

I'll back you up and say I agree completely with your austerity post.  It's a horrible idea.  That's the problem that I have with what happened in the 2000s in the U.S.  After the country was showing a surplus, and unemployment was so low, and the economy was booming in the late 90s, that's when the spending should have been cut, and taxes on the wealthy raised.  Instead we accelerated the increase in debt by massively increasing spending and massively cutting taxes on the wealthy.  Then the complete lack of financial regulation led to the collapse of the worldwide financial industry and the housing debacle we find ourselves digging out of now. 

So basically what happened was we kept spending and low taxes when things were going great, and when they collapsed we had magnified the debt so badly that there wasn't the ability (or will) to massively spend by the government to end the recession (depression?) quickly. 

Bingo!

You're making money and your people is making easy money. Pay those debts and save some money for when the country is going down. Bush trashed all this money in I-don't-know-what and now, you're stuck with a guy trying to repair all the damages.

I love the Norwegian model exactly for that. They found oil and easy money. What do they do? They build one of the biggest fund around here and save money for worst days. Last time I checked, their fund was estimated to 500 billion$. The day they go in crisis, they can simply subsidize their population for a couple of years, waiting for the economy to get better. This country is almost immune to any economic crisis.




You are right, Norway just surpassed the Arabic oil funds and is now the biggest fund in the world. It is growing by investments alone by 850$ per second or more. As of July 2012 it was 634,753,952,831$.

Edited typo.

This is crazy. We're talking about a country of like 5 millions people. You have to learn from the best, and IMHO, Norway is easily the top country in the world. You don't top the chart of the Human Development Index by accident.

also, spending money is not always a bad strategy. but very often governments fight depression by spending money rather randomly, for example just giving the ok to every infrastructure project any community presents, no matter how useless it is. having a sound long term plan to spend your extra money is always a good idea.

I agree that spending for spending is not a good strategy. My call is free education and providing assets for start-up and small businesses. The best way to solve a job problem is not to find one, it is to create one for yourself.
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November 16, 2012, 02:48:01 AM
 #25


1) Perhaps it was the war weakening the competition that lead to america"s rise
2) What happened afterward? Did they stop "injecting money"?

If the answer to #2 is yes, I would like to know how you measure this. If it is no, then that is not an example of what you said earlier.


1) It surely helped, without any doubt.
2) The war effort ended, so, in a way, they stopped subsidize this war industry and what was related around it. But at that point, people had more skills and qualifications that were acquired during the war. That they continued to inject money or not is irrelevant, since what is important is the capacity of the population to produce something. It's not that hard to measure, since the baby-boom is the best symptom of that era. People had now the capacity to make new things that weren't possible before the war, because they didn't had the skills, assets and investments at that point.

Jobs are created using a mix of knowledge and investments. You can't make a business if you are missing:
-the knowledge or capacity of doing it
-having the basic investments to start it up

If you're lacking jobs, the best thing to do is to teach your population so they can learn and think new things, while providing them the basic investments possibilities. Those two things needs a social intervention, usually provided by a government. In the case of WW2, factories were popping up left and right for the war, and people working in those also learned these jobs. When the war ended, you had many production lines available for any businesses that were subsidized by the government during the war. People had new opportunities that created crazy growth.

When people don't have money, they can't create the investment needed for education or businesses. If the state also cut at the same time, I don't see how you can encourage growth and education. Back in 2008, we were also affected by the economic crisis, and some people had difficulties finding jobs. What happened? Since school fees are really really low (lowest in North America! Cheesy), many people went back to school. When the economy started to recover, the same people had now more knowledge and qualifications, and were doing more valuable work.


...


I agree that spending for spending is not a good strategy. My call is free education and providing assets for start-up and small businesses. The best way to solve a job problem is not to find one, it is to create one for yourself.

So the government should always inject money no matter what? Or is there some consequence of this?
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November 16, 2012, 03:03:46 AM
 #26

So the government should always inject money no matter what? Or is there some consequence of this?


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November 16, 2012, 04:01:57 AM
 #27


So the government should always inject money no matter what? Or is there some consequence of this?

It depends on the type of government and population you have. There's no perfect answer to that, it's mainly a philosophical one. Since I live in a social-democracy, I think money injection in certain parts of the society gives awesome results and it's important to have a strong government.

But I'm biased since, in my nation history, francophones were considered as the "white nigger" of America. Being second-class citizen, the free market was rigged against us and the anarcho-capitalism model made us poorer. It's when we decided to build a strong government aimed toward social-democracy that we evolved tremendously as a society.

I think free market is a fallacy honestly. In any free market, there's always a gang that becomes stronger than the rest and where they start to makes the rules. Either you follow them, either you're out. So, in a way, free market tends to create governments within themselves. If governments have to be created, I prefer having the choice of voting for it.

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November 16, 2012, 04:13:52 AM
 #28

But I'm biased since, in my nation history, francophones were considered as the "white nigger" of America. Being second-class citizen, the free market was rigged against us and the anarcho-capitalism model made us poorer.

You may have noticed... That wasn't a free market.

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November 16, 2012, 05:47:51 AM
 #29

Just tear up the debt. It's just invisible abstract numbers on paper floated around by giant banks and the IMF

Argentina did it, Mexico did it, every single European kingdom used to do it. Historically no country on earth has prospered from paying off an enormous debt while many have from not paying.

Whenever the King of France was in debt to the Dutch he'd summon the lenders and just have them executed. Problem solved.
Greece should wholesale cleanse themselves of their corrupt leaders who pissed all their money away and just do what Argentina did and not pay. Start all over again this time weed out the corrupt eurobanker speculators and technocrats in office before they get a chance to blow the money again.



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November 16, 2012, 06:31:23 AM
 #30

Just tear up the debt. It's just invisible abstract numbers on paper floated around by giant banks and the IMF

Argentina did it, Mexico did it, every single European kingdom used to do it. Historically no country on earth has prospered from paying off an enormous debt while many have from not paying.

Whenever the King of France was in debt to the Dutch he'd summon the lenders and just have them executed. Problem solved.
Greece should wholesale cleanse themselves of their corrupt leaders who pissed all their money away and just do what Argentina did and not pay. Start all over again this time weed out the corrupt eurobanker speculators and technocrats in office before they get a chance to blow the money again.





Violence is the answer... Lets try this: you are an asshole.
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November 16, 2012, 06:39:56 AM
 #31

The correct response is to work towards building a superior system that ensures people have no excuse for relying on locking people in cages to make society run. In my opinion, this can be done and should be the ultimate goal.
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November 16, 2012, 06:58:36 AM
 #32

But I'm biased since, in my nation history, francophones were considered as the "white nigger" of America. Being second-class citizen, the free market was rigged against us and the anarcho-capitalism model made us poorer.

You may have noticed... That wasn't a free market.

The market was free. It's simply that the money and assets were in the hands of the english. Since they had control on a big amount of wealth, it was easy to prevent french-canadians from accessing it. It was not like the slaves states in the south, where the law was used to separate the blacks from the whites. In theory, french-canadians had access to the free market and the wealth, there was nothing against it. But because of racial tensions, it was easy to deny french-canadians the same chance as the english.
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November 16, 2012, 07:52:18 AM
 #33

Stop saying in theory!!!!


What government has ever stopped injecting money once it started? How would you measure the success of the ones that did vs the ones that did not?
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November 16, 2012, 02:13:33 PM
 #34

In theory, french-canadians had access to the free market and the wealth, there was nothing against it. But because of racial tensions, it was easy to deny french-canadians the same chance as the english.

Same chance at what? Don't you guys essentially have an entire province to yourselves? You're telling me every business in Quebec was run by the anglophones?

Come on... Even you can't be that naïve.

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November 16, 2012, 08:00:53 PM
 #35

In theory, french-canadians had access to the free market and the wealth, there was nothing against it. But because of racial tensions, it was easy to deny french-canadians the same chance as the english.

Same chance at what? Don't you guys essentially have an entire province to yourselves? You're telling me every business in Quebec was run by the anglophones?

Come on... Even you can't be that naïve.

Not today, things have changed A LOT. But go back 100 years ago, the businesses owners were anglophones and the employees were francophones. The only sector owned by the french-canadians was the agricultural one, where they mainly had family farms. But the industry and services sector were owned at a crushing majority by the anglo. In any common factory, work was done in english and everything was written in english. Even in Montreal, all the business names, the billboards or the ads in the street were practically all in english. We were accommodated though, we had access to democracy and somewhat decent living, because they needed the population.

Remember that the guys you kicked out of the US back in 1776, well, they ended up here. They were not interested in getting another revolution, so they gave us some consideration. We had two hands too and it's useful when you need workers. But they controlled what they gave us, they didn't want us to become too powerful.

I'm not naive, I've read a lot about my history. The 60's is when we got ourselves a bigger government that gave us real access to universities or that nationalize english business (like in energy sector) so that french people had control over a part of the economy. Having a big and socialist government gave us the power that we couldn't get through the free market and right-wing thinking. This big government built our economy, while the free market before that was only exploiting us, with the money going one-way only. Thinking that charity and social work should be done by rich individuals instead of government is nice on paper. But when the rich individuals tell you to "speak white" and see you as second-class citizen, well, you get nothing. Either you get a big government that get back on them through taxes, either you get screwed.

Stop saying in theory!!!!
What government has ever stopped injecting money once it started? How would you measure the success of the ones that did vs the ones that did not?

Well, it worked for us, that's why I approve this method. I agree it is not the panacea, because it is relative to many factors. Still, when I compare the situation of my grand-parents back then and my situation today, I see the success of it.

On that, I think I've hijacked the topic too much  Wink
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November 16, 2012, 08:15:07 PM
 #36

Remember that the guys you kicked out of the US back in 1776, well, they ended up here. They were not interested in getting another revolution, so they gave us some consideration. We had two hands too and it's useful when you need workers. But they controlled what they gave us, they didn't want us to become too powerful.

Ergo, not a free market. 100 years ago, crony capitalism was doing a number on our workers, too. They figured out the solution. It's kinda backfired, but having a fight over the steering wheel will tend to cause the car to veer off course.

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