who is messing with bitcoin and to what purpose?

[Denker]

I agree that this is a serious manipulation at its best works. I woke up to see a price of $300 and I was very disappointed. $350 was a nice new floor if this thing wasn't manipulated but $300 tells us all in my opinion.

I mean what are we, only $50 above where we started this run from. I guess Bitcoin has much more growing up to do.

I believe this kind of manipulation will continue until we go mainstream or get much closer to it. We need more users and a bigger market cap. As this happens less and less manipulation will be possible.

But these kind of crazy swings we saw the last days will keep new people out. Just a few hours ago I showed a buddy of mine what happend the last few weeks and especially the days and he was just shaking his head.Although he knows really well how great Bitcoin could be, he told me these swings in that short period of time do really scare him. This is wild west he said.

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[jonald_fyookball]

When the price was breaking out,  no one including miners would sell until the top was in.  Once it was in, everyone sold.   Op, stop pretending you know what markets are "supposed" to do.

[Mickeyb]

I agree that this is a serious manipulation at its best works. I woke up to see a price of $300 and I was very disappointed. $350 was a nice new floor if this thing wasn't manipulated but $300 tells us all in my opinion.

I mean what are we, only $50 above where we started this run from. I guess Bitcoin has much more growing up to do.

I believe this kind of manipulation will continue until we go mainstream or get much closer to it. We need more users and a bigger market cap. As this happens less and less manipulation will be possible.

But these kind of crazy swings we saw the last days will keep new people out. Just a few hours ago I showed a buddy of mine what happend the last few weeks and especially the days and he was just shaking his head.Although he knows really well how great Bitcoin could be, he told me these swings in that short period of time do really scare him. This is wild west he said.

And you have to understand him 100%. I mean he is right. That's why this will be a slow and painful process to move up, grow and increase our user base. Confidence is everything and people still need to gain much confidence in Bitcoin.

I don't care. My average entry price is much lower than current price so even when swings like this happen, I don't care. But if someone has gotten in at $400, he would be shaking his head at the moment and that's what people are afraid of!

[tabnloz]

But these kind of crazy swings we saw the last days will keep new people out. Just a few hours ago I showed a buddy of mine what happend the last few weeks and especially the days and he was just shaking his head.Although he knows really well how great Bitcoin could be, he told me these swings in that short period of time do really scare him. This is wild west he said.

The volatility is needed.....Speculators keep this thing buzzing and anyone speculating (hopefully) is only putting in play money, not their retirement income. So, they can ride out the ups and downs.

[talks_cheep]

Sorry, biodom, it was me who was doing all the messing with bitcoins. I promise I won't stop messing with it. LOL

[darkangel11]

Not enough real money on exchanges. Real money meaning money from people who want to exchange bitcoin for other reasons than speculation.
This means that most of what is being traded is the same cash over and over being bought and sold with no long term impact on the price.

[r0ach]

Yea, the fact that BTC-E is now the market leader with a $15 markup shows severe manipulation.  They don't consider BTC-E a big enough fish to try and manipulate there, mostly just Bitstamp, Bitfenix, and Huobi.

Manipulation, you say? In MY unregulated bitcoin market?

Except the markets you trade gold on are regulated and manipulated even more.

Don't touch gold myself, so wouldn't know. Gold's a shitty investment, Old People like it, but it's worse than stuffing money in mattress (the another thing Old People groove on).
Gold's just a slightly creepy, depressing anachronism. Like a 50s Modern ranch house with those yellowing clear plastic covers over all the furniture & a faint cat piss smell. Oh, and like Bitcoin, of course.
Though gold's been around longer, so takes longer to die.

So you don't like Bitcoin or Gold and constantly make hundreds of spam accounts on the Bitcoin forum every day claiming the price is going to 0.  Gee, I wonder if you're some type of fiat banking shill.

[gentlemand]

A 24/7 global unregulated market filled with minnows desperate to grab on to the first sign of the huge rise they're waiting for. A more pertinent question is why aren't more people messing with Bitcoin? Any hardened trader would cream their knickers at such an opportunity.

[n2004al]

From $250 to $500, back to $300 in a span of a few weeks or even days?
This does not look like market trading at all.
Bitcoin is a $4bil entity. Although relatively small, it is big enough NOT to have such volatility.

I think that can be happen what is happen even with more big value market. And can happen even much more that happened. I am giving only and simple example. China (to leave all the other countries) has 1 billion and half people. Even if 10% of those would want to have only 1 bitcoin (which have no sense to ask such amount) would be an demand for 150 million bitcoins. 150 million people x 250 us dollar 1 bitcoin = 37 500 000 000 us dollar. If will not be 10% and be 1% the people who will want 1 bitcoin the amount figure will have only one zero less. So no comparison (in both of cases) with your figure about the actual bitcoin market. That percentages of people can increase even 10 000% the price of bitcoin and then after bought their 1 bitcoin, the demand will decrease with the same speed as it was increased. And the price can go again where it was.

[LMGTFY]

MMM ponzi company fuckers.

Not even plausible.  The bullshit thing has been open since 2012 accepting Bitcoin.  There is no reason whatsoever it would just suddenly start having a huge effect to raise the price in the last 2 weeks.

I think it was Bobby Lee who first raised the spectre of MMM over the Chinese exchanges, right after he promised the PRC government that BTC was a speculative instrument and would not in any way - no sirree - be used to move money out of China, in the wake of China unbanning Bitcoin (again).

(I tried to dig out a link to Bobby Lee's comments, but everything I've found is from November, and mostly the last two or three days. This recent New York Times article, for example. I'm pretty certain Lee first mentioned this back in October, however).

My working theory (applying Occam's Razor) throughout the recent rise has been that people on China have been hedging against continuing CNY devaluation.

[bitmarket.net]

There doesn't have to be any conspiracy behind the recent moves in the bitcoin prices.
It is still a relatively shallow market (say comparing to the shares of Apple or Alphabet / Google) so it is prone to over-reactions from time to time.

There are many speculators in the market and the greed and fear play their part.
We do not yet have many institutional investors in the bitcoin market, who usually play a stabilising role in the equity markets.

[Biodom]

MMM ponzi company fuckers.

Not even plausible.  The bullshit thing has been open since 2012 accepting Bitcoin.  There is no reason whatsoever it would just suddenly start having a huge effect to raise the price in the last 2 weeks.

I think it was Bobby Lee who first raised the spectre of MMM over the Chinese exchanges, right after he promised the PRC government that BTC was a speculative instrument and would not in any way - no sirree - be used to move money out of China, in the wake of China unbanning Bitcoin (again).

(I tried to dig out a link to Bobby Lee's comments, but everything I've found is from November, and mostly the last two or three days. This recent New York Times article, for example. I'm pretty certain Lee first mentioned this back in October, however).

My working theory (applying Occam's Razor) throughout the recent rise has been that people on China have been hedging against continuing CNY devaluation.

and then they stopped hedging one week later at $500 and dumped it all the way to $295?
possible, but does not seem likely
i could buy the panicky small speculators thesis

[LMGTFY]

I think it was Bobby Lee who first raised the spectre of MMM over the Chinese exchanges, right after he promised the PRC government that BTC was a speculative instrument and would not in any way - no sirree - be used to move money out of China, in the wake of China unbanning Bitcoin (again).

(I tried to dig out a link to Bobby Lee's comments, but everything I've found is from November, and mostly the last two or three days. This recent New York Times article, for example. I'm pretty certain Lee first mentioned this back in October, however).

My working theory (applying Occam's Razor) throughout the recent rise has been that people on China have been hedging against continuing CNY devaluation.

and then they stopped hedging one week later at $500 and dumped it all the way to $295?
possible, but does not seem likely

No it doesn't. A couple of assumptions there, however:

1. "One week later". There was a premium for BTC on Chinese exchanges for a lot longer than a week. I mentioned I first saw Bobby Lee's article in October, and of course BTC price has been rising for a lot longer than a week.

2. "They [Chinese traders, presumably] stopped hedging ... and dumped it". Or the dump was caused by non-Chinese traders taking profits, which, given the premium on Chinese exchanges at the time, seems more likely!

I'm assuming Chinese traders are still concerned about CNY devaluation, but now they're also faced with BTC heading sharply South. I suspect they're continuing to use BTC as a vehicle to get out of CNY, the only change being that they're more likely going to prefer USD (or similar) to BTC.

[LMGTFY]

^^
So much for Occam's Razor

How so? You believe there's a simpler explanation for the recent rise?

[LMGTFY]

How so? You believe there's a simpler explanation for the recent rise?

Sure, a few, the begging one being pump & dump. Because P&D happen in crypto.

Maybe. It'd have required a lot of P over several weeks, however. I'm not convinced P&D's the simplest explanation. Maybe I'm just conservative when it comes to the power of whales and manipulators in the current market.

[LMGTFY]

How so? You believe there's a simpler explanation for the recent rise?

Sure, a few, the begging one being pump & dump. Because P&D happen in crypto.

Maybe. It'd have required a lot of P over several weeks, however. I'm not convinced P&D's the simplest explanation. Maybe I'm just conservative when it comes to the power of whales and manipulators in the current market.

It's really not a big deal, once you consider the market cap & no regulations to get in the way.

Well, no regulations is maybe stretching it - given the premium on Chinese exchanges, I assume you're arguing that the pumping took place mostly on Chinese exchanges (i.e. CNY->BTC)?

[LMGTFY]

Well, no regulations is maybe stretching it - given the premium on Chinese exchanges, I assume you're arguing that the pumping took place mostly on Chinese exchanges (i.e. CNY->BTC)?

Sure wasn't Gemini leading, but what regulations do you feel would stand in the way of forming some sort of a consortium?
BTW, do you think the LTC P&D (different timing) is also Chinese hedging?

Not sure I follow you - Gemini is a US exchange (and pretty small).

I was cheekily alluding to the lifting of the "ban" on BTC in China, an arrangement that strikes me as potentially temporary (and liable to be replaced with a more regulated regime at any time). I don't think any regs would prevent forming consortia, except maybe compulsory solitary confinement for everyone!

[LMGTFY]

Well, no regulations is maybe stretching it - given the premium on Chinese exchanges, I assume you're arguing that the pumping took place mostly on Chinese exchanges (i.e. CNY->BTC)?

Sure wasn't Gemini leading, but what regulations do you feel would stand in the way of forming some sort of a consortium?
BTW, do you think the LTC P&D (different timing) is also Chinese hedging?

Not sure I follow you - Gemini is a US exchange (and pretty small).

That's the point. Not only did it not lead, it didn't even factor in the P&D. The magic all happened in Chian - no regulations to speak of, FAIK.

I was cheekily alluding to the lifting of the "ban" on BTC in China, an arrangement that strikes me as potentially temporary (and liable to be replaced with a more regulated regime at any time). I don't think any regs would prevent forming consortia, except maybe compulsory solitary confinement for everyone!

Oh sure. Regulations don't preclude bad things from happening, just [ideally] make them more difficult/dangerous, skewing the risk/reward ratio far enough to make them 'unprofitable,' in some cases.

Hmmm. Part of the reason I don't tend to buy P&Ds-ruin-our-lives arguments is because they usually seem to come back to regulate-all-the-things arguments. Not saying they don't occur, just that evidence tends to play second fiddle to solutions (of a regulatory nature). Anyway, if the latest rise was indeed a P&D it was an exceptional one, and kudos to the players behind it.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

I don't see what sort of regulation would change this. There are Ackman's and Icahn's P-ing and D-ing all over Wall Street even now. Hell, somebody dumped $100 million in APPL back in June. I can only imagine what Chinese fat-cats have been up to.

[Ibian]

^^
So much for Occam's Razor

How so? You believe there's a simpler explanation for the recent rise?

Rich people getting richer.

Whales sense the market is ready for a pump, so they pump. Everyone else follow and pump the price even higher. Then they sell at the top. This make them money. The price goes down, people panic and push it further down. When it is low enough they buy. This makes them bitcoin.

Same old shit.