Bitcoin Forum
October 14, 2019, 07:28:16 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.18.1 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  

Warning: Moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Watch out for Ponzi schemes. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 ... 140 »
  Print  
Author Topic: [BTC-TC] Virtual Community Exchange [CLOSED]  (Read 315994 times)
burnside
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092
Merit: 1004


Lead Blockchain Developer


View Profile WWW
December 07, 2012, 10:32:41 PM
 #121

[...] so instead I put in some code that will allow you to plug in a share value when you transfer. [...]
Works for me. Thank you.

However this now brings me back to: Where I can see profit/loss? Is it not implemented yet?

Example:

Yup, definitely not all there yet.  Wink

I started working on it a couple of weeks ago and realized that I need to change the dividend tracking in the db first.  That's a pretty big job, so it's been held up a bit.  It's on the plate though.

Cheers.
1571081296
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1571081296

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1571081296
Reply with quote  #2

1571081296
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1571081296
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1571081296

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1571081296
Reply with quote  #2

1571081296
Report to moderator
Bitcoin Oz
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 500


Wat


View Profile WWW
December 07, 2012, 10:51:24 PM
 #122

If I have an existing btct account with the same email as an imported asset how do I claim the shares ? I received an email abiout cognitive but the login doesnt work because I am already using the email for an existing asset.

burnside
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092
Merit: 1004


Lead Blockchain Developer


View Profile WWW
December 07, 2012, 11:00:15 PM
 #123

If I have an existing btct account with the same email as an imported asset how do I claim the shares ? I received an email abiout cognitive but the login doesnt work because I am already using the email for an existing asset.

The system doesn't care if you have multiple accounts under the same email address.  You should be able to log out of your current account, verify your new account using the verify link, then log into the new account using the details in the email.

If the login info still doesn't work, please PM me your email address and I'll take a look.

Cheers.

Deprived
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532
Merit: 500


View Profile
December 07, 2012, 11:02:32 PM
 #124

[...] so instead I put in some code that will allow you to plug in a share value when you transfer. [...]
Works for me. Thank you.

However this now brings me back to: Where I can see profit/loss? Is it not implemented yet?

Example:

It's not implemented.  And it would be hard to do anyway - as how do you value current holdings when most assets have a wide spread and low traded volume.  There can easily be 25% difference between valuing at highest Bid and valuing at 7-day average (much more in some cases).

Once you get to the stage of having to manually enter values for each asset you hold then you may just as well do it in a spreadsheet in the first place.

Note also that the way in which purchase cost is calculated (if you have X of share then it's average price you bought last X of them at) can lead to some behaviour which could confuse those who don't fully understand it.  Here's an example.

For a given asset you buy 4 units in this order:

1 at 9.0
3 at 7.0

So you now hold 4 - which will show as having a total purchase cost of 30 and an average cost of 7.5.
Assuming you have no cash left your portfolio is now valued at 30.

Now you sell one unit at 8.0 - making a profit right?

Well not accoridng to your asset lists:)

You now hold 3 that were bought at 7.0 - total value 21.  And have 8 cash.  So your portfolio now has a value of 29.  Selling at above average purchase cost made you a loss of 1.  WTF?

That sort of thing can catch people out - and is why any profit/loss tracking implementation needs to be very clear on how it functions, when prices are averaged etc.

To get a more consistent valuation what you should do is every time you buy shares, use the self-transfer thing to reset all of them to their average value - then you'd end up holding 3 units worth 7.5 + 8.0 cash for a total valuation of 30.5 after the trade in the example above.

Another dumb thing I see people (some fund managers especially) do is buy stuff via a bid, value it at mid-range or 7 day average and claim they just made a profit by buying it.  Well no - you haven't made a profit until you can find someone to buy it for more than you just paid.  Sometimes you WILL make a profit from it - other times the reason your bid got filled is because the price is about to collapse once whoever just sold to you has sold all theirs (or all bar enough to take the price back down) and removed their fake bid that you overbid (and all the ones below it making it look like demand), leaving a bottom-less chasm below the point you just bought at.

Personally I only value what I hold for my fund two ways:

1.  What I paid for it (if above highest bid and below lowest Ask),
2.  Highest non-trivial quantity bid (i.e. ignoring 1 unit bids put there to try to get over-bidders to sell to).

In illiquid markets valuing any more optimistically has more to do with wishful thinking than with calculating profit.  Profit is what you can actually realise - not what you'd like to hope you'll be able to make at some point in the future.

All of which is to say that it just isn't easy to calculate profit on current holdings - and anything other than a very thorough approach to it is likely to do more harm than good.  This is because people have a tendency to give too muc credibilitydue to official-looking numbers and treat them as some sort of hard fact - when in fact any such 'profit' figure would be a horribly crude estimate which made no sense without a proper understanding of all the assumption which went into its calculation.  You'd learn far more - and have a much better understanding of where your portfolio really stood - if you did it a spreadsheet or whatever yourself and then had to define the actual assumptions/aproximations yourself, ensuring you were aware of them and the massive extent to which they effected the actual final number calculated.
Newar
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000


https://gliph.me/hUF


View Profile
December 07, 2012, 11:55:39 PM
 #125

It's not implemented.  And it would be hard to do anyway - as how do you value current holdings when most assets have a wide spread and low traded volume.  There can easily be 25% difference between valuing at highest Bid and valuing at 7-day average (much more in some cases).
Again, there's no problem doing that in RL. Again, I see that the spread and volume are our (hopefully) temporary problem. I would opt for BID as basis, but maybe the options could be selected by the user?

For a given asset you buy 4 units in this order:

1 at 9.0
3 at 7.0

So you now hold 4 - which will show as having a total purchase cost of 30 and an average cost of 7.5.
Assuming you have no cash left your portfolio is now valued at 30.

Now you sell one unit at 8.0 - making a profit right?

Well not accoridng to your asset lists:)

You now hold 3 that were bought at 7.0 - total value 21.  And have 8 cash.  So your portfolio now has a value of 29.  Selling at above average purchase cost made you a loss of 1.  WTF?
No, the new valuation would depend on the bid or average price or whatever you choose for the remaining 3 + the 8 in cash.

OTC rating | GPG keyid 1DC91318EE785FDE | Gliph: lightning bicycle tree music | Mycelium, a swift & secure Bitcoin client for Android | LocalBitcoins
Deprived
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 532
Merit: 500


View Profile
December 08, 2012, 01:06:55 AM
 #126

It's not implemented.  And it would be hard to do anyway - as how do you value current holdings when most assets have a wide spread and low traded volume.  There can easily be 25% difference between valuing at highest Bid and valuing at 7-day average (much more in some cases).
Again, there's no problem doing that in RL. Again, I see that the spread and volume are our (hopefully) temporary problem. I would opt for BID as basis, but maybe the options could be selected by the user?

For a given asset you buy 4 units in this order:

1 at 9.0
3 at 7.0

So you now hold 4 - which will show as having a total purchase cost of 30 and an average cost of 7.5.
Assuming you have no cash left your portfolio is now valued at 30.

Now you sell one unit at 8.0 - making a profit right?

Well not accoridng to your asset lists:)

You now hold 3 that were bought at 7.0 - total value 21.  And have 8 cash.  So your portfolio now has a value of 29.  Selling at above average purchase cost made you a loss of 1.  WTF?
No, the new valuation would depend on the bid or average price or whatever you choose for the remaining 3 + the 8 in cash.

If there's enough liquidity in the market to value that way, then yes - it ceases to be an issue, though you still end up booking a realised loss on the sold security if you work our purchase price based on last X rather than re-averaging permanently after each purchase.  My example was primarily showing how using the current built-in system (average cost to buy) to value fails.

Problem with using Bid is that quite often the high bid is just for a single unit - and often significantly above next highest.  Those are generally placed by sellers hoping someone will outbid that they can sell into - a cheap way to make the going rate look higher than it really is.  And the opposite also applies - that after someone sells off in a rush it can take a while before realistic new bids get placed.

With any luck volume will pick up - which coupled with the ability to leverage funds in account across multiple assets should lead to more respectable liquidity and the ability to more reasonably value from market.
BTC-TradingCo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 69
Merit: 10



View Profile WWW
December 08, 2012, 07:40:05 PM
 #127

SYNERGY import complete.

If you held SYNERGY and went through the GLBSE claims process, you should now have an email in your inbox.  Please check your spam folder before reporting missing emails.

Synergy thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84993.msg1386953#msg1386953

Thank you all for using BTC-TC!

The BTC Trading Corp Stock Exchange Demo: https://demo.btct.co
BTC-TradingCo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 69
Merit: 10



View Profile WWW
December 11, 2012, 09:31:30 AM
 #128

Big CSS facelift this evening.  You may have to purge your cache or CTRL-SHFT-R to see it.

Thank you for using BTC Trading Co, https://btct.co/

The BTC Trading Corp Stock Exchange Demo: https://demo.btct.co
BTC-TradingCo
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 69
Merit: 10



View Profile WWW
December 12, 2012, 06:46:56 PM
 #129

BAKEWELL import complete.

If you held BAKEWELL and went through the GLBSE claims process, you should now have an email in your inbox.  Please check your spam folder before reporting missing emails.

BAKEWELL support thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104489.300

Thank you all for using BTC-TC!

The BTC Trading Corp Stock Exchange Demo: https://demo.btct.co
LoweryCBS
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250


firstbits 1LoCBS


View Profile
December 12, 2012, 07:07:23 PM
 #130

Yep, spam folder. (gmail user)

BAKEWELL import complete.

If you held BAKEWELL and went through the GLBSE claims process, you should now have an email in your inbox.  Please check your spam folder before reporting missing emails.

BAKEWELL support thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104489.300

Thank you all for using BTC-TC!
matthewh3
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000



View Profile WWW
December 12, 2012, 07:29:04 PM
 #131

Hi I have the .yml file for my exGLBSE asset RSM - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=63257.0 - how long until you can get it listed?  It is free for exGLBSE assets yes?

burnside
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092
Merit: 1004


Lead Blockchain Developer


View Profile WWW
December 12, 2012, 08:10:10 PM
 #132

Pulling this out of the BitFunder thread, it probably makes more sense to have it here.  Smiley

It is incorrect that BTC Trading Corp is operated by a US Citizen.  It is operated by a group of gentlemen that reside in Belize from an office in Belize City.  While I hold a large stake in the company, my role is roughly that of a webmaster.  I do not have access to the corporate bank account for instance, and core site operations like asset approvals, etc, are handled by the shareholders.

I apologize, I was reading the "Organization and Management" section of the LTC-GLOBAL asset. It mentions "Currently LTC-GLOBAL is majority owned by burnside", with the domain is maintained under your services in the U.S., and under "Financial Management" where it states "All costs to date have come out of burnside's pocket.", it appears is you are the "Big Cheese"/"Head Honcho"/owner along with the people you are designating as "shareholders" that buy into the "Corporation"(not sure what type?) that is registered in Belize? You might seriously want to consider posting an 'About Us' page listing off the Belize corporation information, as well as listing the people behind the corporation, and official titles and responsibilities. Show the people that it is a real corporation, and it has to means to operate as one. Smiley
(Also, it is very common for many small~medium businesses to post pictures and full profiles of the people operating, and making the decisions in the company.)
As it stands from an outsiders point of view, it's all you bud. Wink (And any "shareholders" a court decides to indict. Tongue) (While I was kind of joking about that, it is still a serious consideration.) So seriously think on putting something up to help show show _everyone_ who might be interested, and how real of a corporation that it is.

That prospectus was written up when LTC-GLOBAL was first created.  You probably also noticed lots of other things out of date, eg:

Quote
Our sole product is the website litecoinglobal.com.  Hopefully in the future we
will have a bitcoin denominated website, however we must be careful in our
current legal environment to make sure that everyone understands that no matter
what crypto-commodity we use to trade with, our site is for entertainment
only.  If you want to invest in real-world securities you will have to look
elsewhere.

We didn't have the BTC-TC site at all yet, and had not yet tackled all the legal issues.  All of the transitional parts and pieces have been documented in the LTC-GLOBAL threads (and a shareholder motion) over time, (including a post of our corporate registration certificate) but you're right, it needs updated.  I'll tackle that soon.

... I probably won't be posting pictures of me though.  If you ask nice I'm happy to share my linked-in profile via PM.  Wink 


Lawyer and I did a lot of research into this.  While not impossible, this would be an incredible feat until you have some significant revenue.  The problem is that most (every country I could find except for the Cook Islands) already have the equivalent of an SEC and require exchanges to be registered.  They're not going to approve you for trading in other than the local currencies, and will require your exchange to operate solely within their jurisdiction.  I would absolutely love it if you find somewhere out there that is a good home for legit BTC exchanges, but even if you did, it would still be illegal for that exchange to solicit US investors.  I know everyone likes to poke fun at it, but there's more legitimacy in the virtual exchange (educational and entertainment purposes only...) than you might think.  The very fact that everyone on the forums pokes fun at it legitimizes it because it's something I can hold up in court, "see your Honor, no one took it seriously, they all understood what it was."  Anyway, I digress.  Wink

Oh yes, no one said it would be easy in any way shape or form. That's why no one has done it yet.
If you do not look, and press on, you never know. Smiley

As far as it being a joke, the moment you get into court, all laughs and games aside, the judge will ask you point blank, "If it's all 'virtual currency', fun and games, and exactly 'how' the users get this 'virtual currency' to trade it on your site since you do not sell it yourself. You could say "Users can 'mine' it using their already bought computers.", but I promise you within the first cross-examination, the DA will ask if "mining" uses additional electricity, and generally requires some investment of some sort, and could be traded out by many other central places for real currency, and if it has any sort of agreed value online or otherwise".

Putting that aside, you COULD argue that you are no different than a game company like World of Warcraft with your own 'virtual currency'. The problem is that unlike SecondLife, and many other's, you are not using your own 'virtual currency'. This is something you might want to consider doing with some simple fee-less third party exchanges, or possibly internally.

I think the line is "Hobbyists use their high performance gaming video cards to create it."  Part of the fun is constantly tweaking it to maximize performance.  Like back in the day when people used to constantly reboot their 386's, editing their DOS boot files to get maximum memory to play a game.  Wink  You're right that it's in a questionable space legally, but anything that can be said about WoW/SecondLife can be said about cryptocoin.  Some people do it for fun, some for profit. 

Although, I am curious what your lawyer thought about publicly trading "fake" shares of the "real" Belize corporation and treating those "fake" shares as "real" ones by giving out "real" dividends of "real" profits to those share holders as if they actually owned the "real" shares of the company, and how to deal with the Belize securities dept. if they come asking. (As you said, they won't be happy.) I do understand that you are claiming it is all fake, and has no value.. but I just don't see a judge agreeing with that in any way. "Yes your honor, none of our 'virtual shareholders' hold any real stock in our company. We just.. pay them out real profit worth of shares in that amount.. as if they actually owned them. It's all fun and games... for learning.. you see... ?" (Please, PLEASE tell me I missed something, because I feel bad now that I have considered and written this, and it is 5:10am. Tongue )

I think we covered this in one of the threads a while back.  The shares represented on LTC-GLOBAL are proxied shares held by a nominee shareholder.  I have offered up a trade for anyone holding a large amount of shares of their LTC-GLOBAL proxied shares to actual shares held and registered with the corporate secretary.  You just have to go through usual AML type requirements.  Photo id's, passport, proof of address, etc.

I do not claim that they have no value.  That would be like saying that WoW gold or Lindens have no value.  It doesn't hold water.  I do however hold that they have zero real cash value until you trade them for cash with someone.  Fact of the matter is that with all the cryptocurrencies, the value can be wiped out at any time by the developer, or even by a hacker.  (51% attack, or a vulnerability in the underlying crypto layer.)  So I don't think any of us realize a profit or income until such time that we actually have cash in hand.

Short answer.  It's in the FAQ... "Q: Why should we trust this site after so many others have failed?", and on the main page in the list of done todo's where each feature has been crossed off as it was developed.

Longer answer:  litecoinglobal.com had this from day... 1?  maybe 2?  (btct.co being a clone of litecoinglobal.com)  There are no less than 3 different ways the asset issuers can get at the data.  In the website.  Via JSON API.  And via email.  The email is automatic... you get a copy of all your shareholders in your inbox twice a day.  MPEx poked all kinds of fun at me for the email feature, but the bottom line is that I have no idea if anything will ever happen to the site and I don't want to be responsible for anyone's economic loss.  So it'd be easy to shift from one of BTC Trading Corp's exchanges to another exchange elsewhere because we've always been about making it easy for the asset issuers to do their thing.  This may eventually be to our detriment, as the issuers really could leave at any time, but I still feel strongly that it's important to give your users the tools they need to succeed.

Ahhh, I apologize, I must have overlooked it or perhaps did not consider that the same. I think a lot of the problem is that many users do not trust the asset issuers when it comes down to money. Everyone has a scammer tag in their holster ready to quick draw the moment something even remotely smells funny, regardless of how well known, or reliable the issuer has been. We have already seen cases of people questioning issuers "where did XXX shares come from? Why do you have them? Do you have proof you owned them before YYY?" I guess in this respect, and the information not being out there for everyone to see, and not being 100% fully transparent just screams (to me, along with all the other voices in my head Wink ) like it would still lead to many MANY more potential major incidents with a lot of "he said, she said".

If you can't trust your issuer, then the asset holds no value anyway.

I do also like your systems voting model, it is a very unique and interesting system. Smiley
(Just make sure no one confuses it with a "real" shareholders vote! Wink )

Thanks!

Ukyo
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448
Merit: 250



View Profile
December 12, 2012, 10:39:13 PM
 #133

I think the line is "Hobbyists use their high performance gaming video cards to create it."  Part of the fun is constantly tweaking it to maximize performance.  Like back in the day when people used to constantly reboot their 386's, editing their DOS boot files to get maximum memory to play a game.  Wink  You're right that it's in a questionable space legally, but anything that can be said about WoW/SecondLife can be said about cryptocoin.  Some people do it for fun, some for profit. 

Actually, at least with WoW, the company specifies that their 'virtual currenecy' is to have no real world cash value. Attempting to do so is breaking their ToS.
People reported and caught doing so, have the accounts they have invested time and money into taken away.
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/wow_tou.html
"
Ownership/Selling of the Account or Virtual Items.
Blizzard does not recognize the transfer of World of Warcraft Accounts or BNET Accounts (each an “Account”). You may not purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, or offer to purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, and any such attempt shall be null and void. Blizzard owns, has licensed, or otherwise has rights to all of the content that appears in the Game. You agree that you have no right or title in or to any such content, including without limitation the virtual goods or currency appearing or originating in the Game, or any other attributes associated with any Account. Blizzard does not recognize any purported transfers of virtual property executed outside of the Game, or the purported sale, gift or trade in the “real world” of anything that appears or originates in the Game. Accordingly, you may not sell in-game items or currency for “real” money, or exchange those items or currency for value outside of the Game.
"

SecondLife issues Linden Dollars that are "representing contractual permission from Linden Lab to access features of the Service." and is a limited license
that they maintain full control of. This is very different than using bitcoins on an asset exchange, as you are using a third party "virtual currency" that is
most commonly used in trading for fiat.
http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php
"
5. "LINDEN DOLLARS" ARE VIRTUAL TOKENS THAT WE LICENSE
5.1 Each Linden dollar is a virtual token representing contractual permission from Linden Lab to access features of the Service. Linden dollars are available for Purchase or distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and are not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab.

The Service includes a component of virtual tokens ("Linden dollars" or "L$"), each of which constitutes a limited license permission to use features of our Service as set forth below. Linden Lab may or may not charge fees to acquire or use Linden dollars, and these fees may change at any time.

When you acquire a Linden dollar, Linden Lab hereby grants you a limited license ("Linden Dollar License") to use the Linden dollar as a virtual token to be held, bartered, traded and/or transferred in Second Life with other users (and/or Linden Lab), in exchange for permission to access and use Content, applications, services, and various user-created features, in accordance with these Terms of Service. The Linden Dollar License is transferable by the holder to any other user, provided that both users comply with these Terms of Service, maintain their Accounts in good standing, and are not delinquent on any Account payment requirements. Except as expressly permitted by this Agreement or otherwise expressly permitted by Linden Lab, the Linden Dollar License may not be sublicensed, encumbered, conveyed or made subject to any right of survivorship or other disposition by operation of law or otherwise, and you agree that any attempted disposition in violation of these Terms of Service is null and void. Linden Lab may revoke the Linden Dollar License at any time without notice, refund or compensation in the event that: (i) the Linden dollar program is suspended or discontinued; (ii) Linden Lab determines that fraud or other illegal conduct is associated with the holder's Account; (iii) Linden Lab imposes an expiration date on usage of Linden dollars in compliance with applicable laws and regulations; (iv) the holder's Account is terminated for violation of these Terms of Service; or (v) the holder becomes delinquent on any of that user's Account payment requirements, ceases to maintain an active Account or terminates this Agreement."

Also, VERY importantly.. they state they can, at any time, take your Lindens away, which you simply can not do with bitcoins outside of the site. They also state that 'Linden dollars are not real currency or any type of financial instrument and are not redeemable for any sum of money from Linden Lab at any time.'
"
You acknowledge that Linden dollars are not real currency or any type of financial instrument and are not redeemable for any sum of money from Linden Lab at any time. You agree that Linden Lab has the right to manage, regulate, control, and/or modify the license rights underlying such Linden dollars as it sees fit and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of this right. Linden Lab makes no guarantee as to the nature, quality or value of the features of the Service that will be accessible through the use of Linden dollars, or the availability or supply of Linden dollars.
"

Both sites do definitely claim, or assert that their 'virtual currencies' have no monetary value.
I have even considered doing a similar thing for bitfunder, except that no one wants to be told that the moment they "convert" their BTC in, that it has 0 value until they transfer it out. Especially with the GLBSE nightmare. People want to be able to have recourse.
Neither site, WoW, or even SecondLife will directly let you exchange their 'virtual currency' to something else to be withdrawn.
Even SecondLife, LindenLabs directly will not convert your Linden Dollars to a fiat at any rate and give it to you as a withdraw.
(This would violate their own ToS stating their 'virtual currency' is not redeemable for any sum of money from Linden Lab at any time'.)

Having experience personal experience as a business owner for 12+ years, and having to see many Judges over the last decade to enforce contracts, I can share at least one thing I have definitely learned, is that you can 'play it' however you want with a judge. In the end, they look at it in a very factual, and straight forward manner, and they tend to look for people who play 'games' to avoid illegality, and will compare end results, not the means.

Object A
1. A shareholder of a publicly traded company spends their money to buy into shares of a company.
2. A shareholder of a publicly traded company get's to vote on company events.
3. A shareholder of a publicly traded company may earn dividends based on profits the company has hearned.

Object B
1. A user may have to spend money to but bitcoins to bbuy litecoinglobal's 'virtual shares'
2. 'Virtual shareholders' vote on actual events of of Litecoin Global.
3. 'Virtual shareholders' will receive actual profits from Litecoin Global via a 'real shareholder'.
4. 'Virtual shareholders' may at any time, in bulk, and without charge, convert 'virtual shares' into real ones.
5. 'Virtual shareholders' are being provided detailed company accounting data.
6. 'Virtual shareholders' 'actually' own a share of "the domain liteocinglobal.com, the website code, the customer list, and anythiing left in the site wallet.' and may receive these very real items in whole or part should litecoinglobal.com operate at a loss for more than 30 days. as stated in the LTC-ASSET 'stockholder agreement'.
6. 'Virtual shareholders' are liable for the 'Estimated startup costs' including up to $1,780 worth in company formation fees in the form of a clawback which would be paid by 'Virtual Shareholders' in the form of a debt, lowering the total profit paid out as dividends, should the corporation become successful.

These 'Virtual Shareholders' sure do have a lot of 'real world' responsibilities and promises for being a completely 'fake' system for 'entertainment' purposes only. Wink

My lawyers have always agreed on one thing. Judge's will go by 'the sniff test'. If it smells funky, it probably is.
This my friend, would _not_ pass the sniff test.

There is a possibility that the other side would call in shareholders, asking how they came to own the 'virtual shares',
including buying the bitcoins, the bitcoins held value worth selling on an open market for, how much they "paid"
for the shares, if they fully expected to get actual profits distributed to them from litecoinglobal regardless of if they
are labeled as 'virtual' and who actually gives them the payments, and if they felt that these payments based on the
profits were a "promise" of value to be paid.

The shares represented on LTC-GLOBAL are proxied shares held by a nominee shareholder.  I have offered up a trade for anyone holding a large amount of shares of their LTC-GLOBAL proxied shares to actual shares held and registered with the corporate secretary.

This contradicts the websites own terms, where it states 'No assets on the site are to be considered real.'. In this case,
as you have clearly stated, the shares of the litecoinglobal asset are true shares being proxied by a nominee shareholder,
and may be traded evenly for actual held shares of the registered corporation in bulk.

The end result is, which the Judge's care about the most, is that the 'virtual shareholders' of litecoinglobal have the
same promises, and rights as a real shareholder, and is being traded in a public open market outside of any regulation,
having the option to (without any cost) evenly trade these 'virtual' shares for real ones, leaving the only difference
being that someone tagged the word 'virtual' onto them. This does not make them 'not real shares'.

Simply telling the judge that there is a "fake" service that manages the 'virtual shares' that act in good faith as actual
shares... well. I will stop beating a horse, dead or not. For the rest of the site, that is fine, but for your own real corporation,
it just sounds bad. (to me. of course I may be wrong, but it is my opinion.)

I have known many lawyers, and have never had one say "Yeah, it can look questionable, but we can fight it."
(Well.. there was one... there always is.. man, he made a LOT of money off that odeal. Wink Was the first time I learned the
hard way about this stuff.)
Generally the response is "Well, if it looks like a dog, walks like a dog, and barks like a dog, I would't want to go to jail for try to sell it as a cat."

If you can't trust your issuer, then the asset holds no value anyway.

Oh.. they trust them.. Until something goes terribly wrong. Then it all goes down hill from there. Does not mater if the issuer is doing what they think is right, or not.
burnside
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092
Merit: 1004


Lead Blockchain Developer


View Profile WWW
December 12, 2012, 11:19:16 PM
 #134

I think the line is "Hobbyists use their high performance gaming video cards to create it."  Part of the fun is constantly tweaking it to maximize performance.  Like back in the day when people used to constantly reboot their 386's, editing their DOS boot files to get maximum memory to play a game.  Wink  You're right that it's in a questionable space legally, but anything that can be said about WoW/SecondLife can be said about cryptocoin.  Some people do it for fun, some for profit. 

Actually, at least with WoW, the company specifies that their 'virtual currenecy' is to have no real world cash value. Attempting to do so is breaking their ToS.
People reported and caught doing so, have the accounts they have invested time and money into taken away.
http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/wow_tou.html
"
Ownership/Selling of the Account or Virtual Items.
Blizzard does not recognize the transfer of World of Warcraft Accounts or BNET Accounts (each an “Account”). You may not purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, or offer to purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, and any such attempt shall be null and void. Blizzard owns, has licensed, or otherwise has rights to all of the content that appears in the Game. You agree that you have no right or title in or to any such content, including without limitation the virtual goods or currency appearing or originating in the Game, or any other attributes associated with any Account. Blizzard does not recognize any purported transfers of virtual property executed outside of the Game, or the purported sale, gift or trade in the “real world” of anything that appears or originates in the Game. Accordingly, you may not sell in-game items or currency for “real” money, or exchange those items or currency for value outside of the Game.
"

SecondLife issues Linden Dollars that are "representing contractual permission from Linden Lab to access features of the Service." and is a limited license
that they maintain full control of. This is very different than using bitcoins on an asset exchange, as you are using a third party "virtual currency" that is
most commonly used in trading for fiat.
http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php
"
5. "LINDEN DOLLARS" ARE VIRTUAL TOKENS THAT WE LICENSE
5.1 Each Linden dollar is a virtual token representing contractual permission from Linden Lab to access features of the Service. Linden dollars are available for Purchase or distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and are not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab.

The Service includes a component of virtual tokens ("Linden dollars" or "L$"), each of which constitutes a limited license permission to use features of our Service as set forth below. Linden Lab may or may not charge fees to acquire or use Linden dollars, and these fees may change at any time.

When you acquire a Linden dollar, Linden Lab hereby grants you a limited license ("Linden Dollar License") to use the Linden dollar as a virtual token to be held, bartered, traded and/or transferred in Second Life with other users (and/or Linden Lab), in exchange for permission to access and use Content, applications, services, and various user-created features, in accordance with these Terms of Service. The Linden Dollar License is transferable by the holder to any other user, provided that both users comply with these Terms of Service, maintain their Accounts in good standing, and are not delinquent on any Account payment requirements. Except as expressly permitted by this Agreement or otherwise expressly permitted by Linden Lab, the Linden Dollar License may not be sublicensed, encumbered, conveyed or made subject to any right of survivorship or other disposition by operation of law or otherwise, and you agree that any attempted disposition in violation of these Terms of Service is null and void. Linden Lab may revoke the Linden Dollar License at any time without notice, refund or compensation in the event that: (i) the Linden dollar program is suspended or discontinued; (ii) Linden Lab determines that fraud or other illegal conduct is associated with the holder's Account; (iii) Linden Lab imposes an expiration date on usage of Linden dollars in compliance with applicable laws and regulations; (iv) the holder's Account is terminated for violation of these Terms of Service; or (v) the holder becomes delinquent on any of that user's Account payment requirements, ceases to maintain an active Account or terminates this Agreement."

Also, VERY importantly.. they state they can, at any time, take your Lindens away, which you simply can not do with bitcoins outside of the site. They also state that 'Linden dollars are not real currency or any type of financial instrument and are not redeemable for any sum of money from Linden Lab at any time.'
"
You acknowledge that Linden dollars are not real currency or any type of financial instrument and are not redeemable for any sum of money from Linden Lab at any time. You agree that Linden Lab has the right to manage, regulate, control, and/or modify the license rights underlying such Linden dollars as it sees fit and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of this right. Linden Lab makes no guarantee as to the nature, quality or value of the features of the Service that will be accessible through the use of Linden dollars, or the availability or supply of Linden dollars.
"

Both sites do definitely claim, or assert that their 'virtual currencies' have no monetary value.
I have even considered doing a similar thing for bitfunder, except that no one wants to be told that the moment they "convert" their BTC in, that it has 0 value until they transfer it out. Especially with the GLBSE nightmare. People want to be able to have recourse.
Neither site, WoW, or even SecondLife will directly let you exchange their 'virtual currency' to something else to be withdrawn.
Even SecondLife, LindenLabs directly will not convert your Linden Dollars to a fiat at any rate and give it to you as a withdraw.
(This would violate their own ToS stating their 'virtual currency' is not redeemable for any sum of money from Linden Lab at any time'.)

Having experience personal experience as a business owner for 12+ years, and having to see many Judges over the last decade to enforce contracts, I can share at least one thing I have definitely learned, is that you can 'play it' however you want with a judge. In the end, they look at it in a very factual, and straight forward manner, and they tend to look for people who play 'games' to avoid illegality, and will compare end results, not the means.

Object A
1. A shareholder of a publicly traded company spends their money to buy into shares of a company.
2. A shareholder of a publicly traded company get's to vote on company events.
3. A shareholder of a publicly traded company may earn dividends based on profits the company has hearned.

Object B
1. A user may have to spend money to but bitcoins to bbuy litecoinglobal's 'virtual shares'
2. 'Virtual shareholders' vote on actual events of of Litecoin Global.
3. 'Virtual shareholders' will receive actual profits from Litecoin Global via a 'real shareholder'.
4. 'Virtual shareholders' may at any time, in bulk, and without charge, convert 'virtual shares' into real ones.
5. 'Virtual shareholders' are being provided detailed company accounting data.
6. 'Virtual shareholders' 'actually' own a share of "the domain liteocinglobal.com, the website code, the customer list, and anythiing left in the site wallet.' and may receive these very real items in whole or part should litecoinglobal.com operate at a loss for more than 30 days. as stated in the LTC-ASSET 'stockholder agreement'.
6. 'Virtual shareholders' are liable for the 'Estimated startup costs' including up to $1,780 worth in company formation fees in the form of a clawback which would be paid by 'Virtual Shareholders' in the form of a debt, lowering the total profit paid out as dividends, should the corporation become successful.

These 'Virtual Shareholders' sure do have a lot of 'real world' responsibilities and promises for being a completely 'fake' system for 'entertainment' purposes only. Wink

My lawyers have always agreed on one thing. Judge's will go by 'the sniff test'. If it smells funky, it probably is.
This my friend, would _not_ pass the sniff test.

There is a possibility that the other side would call in shareholders, asking how they came to own the 'virtual shares',
including buying the bitcoins, the bitcoins held value worth selling on an open market for, how much they "paid"
for the shares, if they fully expected to get actual profits distributed to them from litecoinglobal regardless of if they
are labeled as 'virtual' and who actually gives them the payments, and if they felt that these payments based on the
profits were a "promise" of value to be paid.

The shares represented on LTC-GLOBAL are proxied shares held by a nominee shareholder.  I have offered up a trade for anyone holding a large amount of shares of their LTC-GLOBAL proxied shares to actual shares held and registered with the corporate secretary.

This contradicts the websites own terms, where it states 'No assets on the site are to be considered real.'. In this case,
as you have clearly stated, the shares of the litecoinglobal asset are true shares being proxied by a nominee shareholder,
and may be traded evenly for actual held shares of the registered corporation in bulk.

The end result is, which the Judge's care about the most, is that the 'virtual shareholders' of litecoinglobal have the
same promises, and rights as a real shareholder, and is being traded in a public open market outside of any regulation,
having the option to (without any cost) evenly trade these 'virtual' shares for real ones, leaving the only difference
being that someone tagged the word 'virtual' onto them. This does not make them 'not real shares'.

Simply telling the judge that there is a "fake" service that manages the 'virtual shares' that act in good faith as actual
shares... well. I will stop beating a horse, dead or not. For the rest of the site, that is fine, but for your own real corporation,
it just sounds bad. (to me. of course I may be wrong, but it is my opinion.)

I have known many lawyers, and have never had one say "Yeah, it can look questionable, but we can fight it."
(Well.. there was one... there always is.. man, he made a LOT of money off that odeal. Wink Was the first time I learned the
hard way about this stuff.)
Generally the response is "Well, if it looks like a dog, walks like a dog, and barks like a dog, I would't want to go to jail for try to sell it as a cat."

If you can't trust your issuer, then the asset holds no value anyway.

Oh.. they trust them.. Until something goes terribly wrong. Then it all goes down hill from there. Does not mater if the issuer is doing what they think is right, or not.

Toward your first point(s) I think we have a fundamental misunderstanding.  I am not Blizzard nor Linden.  I act more like Ebay, Craigslist, or any of the other 100's of virtual swapping sites setup to trade Blizzard and Linden virtual assets independently.  As such, whatever Blizzard or Linden state in their ToS has zero relevance to me or my platform.  All the quoting you did from their ToS, etc, means nothing to me.  (I play neither and have never agreed to any such ToS.)  The bitcoin ToS on the other hand, might have some impact... but I'm pretty sure that boils down to a GNU license that is effectively "do whatever you want with it, you agree to hold the developers harmless should anything befall you", etc.  And in support of my argument that everything is virtual is the very fact that if those developers wanted to, they could pull the carpet out on you just as easily as Blizzard can with WoW gold, or Linden can with their "currency".

Further, we are not exchanging virtual goods for real currency.  So there is no exposure there either.  The company does not profit in currency.  The company profits in commodities.  That the shareholders get a chunk of these commodities as a benefit of their shares doesn't magically equal income.  The shareholders profit when they convert their commodities to currency somewhere else.  I think I had this discussion in the Giga thread a while back, discussing how to report crypto-currency income via 1099's, operation of barter exchanges, etc.

Your point regarding shareholders of the virtual world having a say in the real-world operation of the real world company is an interesting one.  I see your point, but I am not sure that such an arrangement is without precedent.  Many organizations offer memberships, those members have privileges defined by their membership, and many times part of that is providing input toward the direction of the company strategically.

Addressing most of the rest of your post, you are absolutely correct that if a Judge gets annoyed at us, he'll do whatever the heck he wants to us.  (or just me.)  We are ALL under that umbrella in the USA.  Ever heard of the "three felonies a day" theory?  (see: http://www.threefeloniesaday.com/Youtoo/tabid/86/Default.aspx ... or google "three felonies a day".)

All I can do is try to minimize our exposure to that risk.  (and in this case, minimize the exposure of the LTC-GLOBAL shareholders, asset issuers, and users.)  My efforts as a founder of this particular small business to bootstrap a self-sufficient, self-sustaining entity have all been toward that goal.  No doubt there is a long way to go, and I'm always open to good ideas.  Wink

Cheers.
Ukyo
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448
Merit: 250



View Profile
December 12, 2012, 11:48:29 PM
 #135

Toward your first point(s) I think we have a fundamental misunderstanding.  I am not Blizzard nor Linden.  I act more like Ebay, Craigslist, or any of the other 100's of virtual swapping sites setup to trade Blizzard and Linden virtual assets independently.  As such, whatever Blizzard or Linden state in their ToS has zero relevance to me or my platform.  All the quoting you did from their ToS, etc, means nothing to me.  (I play neither and have never agreed to any such ToS.)  The bitcoin ToS on the other hand, might have some impact... but I'm pretty sure that boils down to a GNU license that is effectively "do whatever you want with it, you agree to hold the developers harmless should anything befall you", etc.  And in support of my argument that everything is virtual is the very fact that if those developers wanted to, they could pull the carpet out on you just as easily as Blizzard can with WoW gold, or Linden can with their "currency".

I was not actually trying to apply their ToS to the sites, but showing a comparison of how the sites and cryptocoins are not just the same as WoW/SecondLife.
You had stated: 
"but anything that can be said about WoW/SecondLife can be said about cryptocoin."

There are fundamental differences between them. That is all. Smiley


Further, we are not exchanging virtual goods for real currency.  So there is no exposure there either.  The company does not profit in currency.  The company profits in commodities.  That the shareholders get a chunk of these commodities as a benefit of their shares doesn't magically equal income.  The shareholders profit when they convert their commodities to currency somewhere else.  I think I had this discussion in the Giga thread a while back, discussing how to report crypto-currency income via 1099's, operation of barter exchanges, etc.

Your point regarding shareholders of the virtual world having a say in the real-world operation of the real world company is an interesting one.  I see your point, but I am not sure that such an arrangement is without precedent.  Many organizations offer memberships, those members have privileges defined by their membership, and many times part of that is providing input toward the direction of the company strategically.

Addressing most of the rest of your post, you are absolutely correct that if a Judge gets annoyed at us, he'll do whatever the heck he wants to us.  (or just me.)  We are ALL under that umbrella in the USA.  Ever heard of the "three felonies a day" theory?  (see: http://www.threefeloniesaday.com/Youtoo/tabid/86/Default.aspx ... or google "three felonies a day".)

All I can do is try to minimize our exposure to that risk.  (and in this case, minimize the exposure of the LTC-GLOBAL shareholders, asset issuers, and users.)  My efforts as a founder of this particular small business to bootstrap a self-sufficient, self-sustaining entity have all been toward that goal.  No doubt there is a long way to go, and I'm always open to good ideas.  Wink

Cheers.

As long as you know how you will present the package in court (and hopefully this never happens, to anyone.), and feel comfortable with it that is all that matters in the end. Smiley
As I stated before, I am just tossing out concerns from my personal opinion, as well as providing another point of view that might hopefully be of some help, and are not meant to be considered an argument to fight instead.
As always, I wish you, and your partners the best of luck. Smiley


burnside
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092
Merit: 1004


Lead Blockchain Developer


View Profile WWW
December 13, 2012, 12:05:33 AM
 #136

I was not actually trying to apply their ToS to the sites, but showing a comparison of how the sites and cryptocoins are not just the same as WoW/SecondLife.
You had stated: 
"but anything that can be said about WoW/SecondLife can be said about cryptocoin."

There are fundamental differences between them. That is all. Smiley

I gotcha.  So what you're saying is that the fundamental difference lies in the original intent of the programmers that created the virtual goods?  Is that accurate?

As long as you know how you will present the package in court (and hopefully this never happens, to anyone.), and feel comfortable with it that is all that matters in the end. Smiley
As I stated before, I am just tossing out concerns from my personal opinion, as well as providing another point of view that might hopefully be of some help, and are not meant to be considered an argument to fight instead.
As always, I wish you, and your partners the best of luck. Smiley

I wouldn't say I find anything about this comfortable in court.  For the reasons described earlier.  You never know what a judge is going to do.  What is your take with BitFunder?  Is BitFunder registered with your state's corporate division?  (I see you have (C) BitFunder on the site, inferring BitFunder is a registered entity?)  And it's hosted and operated in the US?

I really appreciate your input, it's good to discuss this stuff.

Cheers.
Ukyo
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448
Merit: 250



View Profile
December 13, 2012, 12:41:51 AM
 #137

[I gotcha.  So what you're saying is that the fundamental difference lies in the original intent of the programmers that created the virtual goods?  Is that accurate?

Just the difference between claiming to operate a site using a crypto currency, and how WoW and SecondLife operate their 'virtual currencies'.
As you recently stated in another thread, a fundamental difference is that you allow withdraws, where the games do not.

I wouldn't say I find anything about this comfortable in court.  For the reasons described earlier.  You never know what a judge is going to do.  What is your take with BitFunder?  Is BitFunder registered with your state's corporate division?  (I see you have (C) BitFunder on the site, inferring BitFunder is a registered entity?)  And it's hosted and operated in the US?

I really appreciate your input, it's good to discuss this stuff.

No, BitFunder is not a registered business entity at this time. I had stated in the previous thread that you carried this conversation over from that I am working towards finding a way to establish a legal legitimacy for the site. At this time I have chosen not to take the same route as BTC-TC and just claim its all play money and hope for the best. Smiley

Not sure what you mean about the (C), unless you are referencing a copyright mark?

Hosting: The site is load balanced across servers all around the world. Multiple database and front end servers share the handling of data all over.
People who know me, know I have 10+ years in the hosting business, and have equipment all around.
I also host a great mining pool http://Ozco.in which is managed by Graet, for the last year or so.

Operations: Are you referencing a business operations? There are none. Website operations? I am the web developer in the US.

Forming a corporation in another country once the legal concerns have been taken into account is not too difficult with proper consulting.
I would highly recommend anyone use a real lawyer/cpa to properly incorporate in another country. There are many laws to consider.
I have corporations in the US, Canada, and Australia currently, and working towards a financial license in another.
Ukyo
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448
Merit: 250



View Profile
December 13, 2012, 12:48:00 AM
 #138

Also, we should probably continue are discussions in private and not in the public threads.
No one else has joined the conversation or shown any interest, and it has now leaked across two threads.

http://polimedia.us/dtng/c/res/17830.html
(I think we are both being made fun of now. Wink )
burnside
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092
Merit: 1004


Lead Blockchain Developer


View Profile WWW
December 13, 2012, 01:03:47 AM
 #139

I apologize, I thought when you said that you were working out the legal that you meant the ToS.

Also, we should probably continue are discussions in private and not in the public threads.
No one else has joined the conversation or shown any interest, and it has now leaked across two threads.

http://polimedia.us/dtng/c/res/17830.html
(I think we are both being made fun of now. Wink )

In this thread I was approaching this from the perspective that the questions you're asking are relevant to everyone involved with BTC-TC.

With the romanians... heh, let them have their fun.  In a lot of ways they have more freedom than we do.  Thus their perspective is a little different than ours.  Wink

handytxg
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 111
Merit: 10


View Profile
December 13, 2012, 08:21:44 AM
 #140

Hi,
how do I reset my PIN?
I get my account from LTC-Mining so I don't have the PIN.
here is my account name "LTC-MINING-QmWG6"
Thank you
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 ... 140 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!