Bitcoinica liquidator wants to hear from users

[ninjarobot]

Today I received the following email from Taslim Bhamji, a Senior Insolvency Administrator from PKF Corporate Recovery & Insolvency Ltd (the NZ Court appointed liquidator for Bitcoinica LP):

We confirm that we have been appointed liquidators of the Bitcoinica Limited Partnership, which is registered in New Zealand. We are currently collecting information and our immediate priority is securing the investor funds (in both cash and Bitcoins) and determining investor balances. It is too early to know how long the liquidation process will take, but we would like to move as quickly as possible towards a distribution to investors/creditors.
 
With this in mind, we would be grateful if all investors and creditors could email us and provide their address and contact details, as well as details of any amounts owed to them and proof of the claim. Also the Liquidators’ first report is due to be sent to all creditors by 26 November 2012, but we are unable to do so if we do not have contact details for creditors or investors.
 
We would also appreciate feedback from investors on whether they would prefer to receive a distribution in the form of Bitcoins (where possible) or whether they would prefer a straightforward cash distribution. We are still seeking to determine what options are available to us at law, and will let investors know in due course.
 
Lastly, we are aware of legal proceedings underway in California against the Limited Partnership. The Liquidators have sought to have the Limited Partnership withdrawn from the proceedings on the basis that it is in liquidation. We urge creditors/investors to refrain from taking any legal action against Bitcoinica, as it will simply add to the plaintiffs costs with no benefit. Any legal claims against Bitcoinica would need to be made in the New Zealand Courts. Judgements against the Limited Partnership in any foreign jurisdiction will not be recognised by the liquidators.
 
Please contact me directly if you have any queries or wish to bring any matters to the liquidators’ attention.

So if you happen to be a Bitcoinica creditor/investor - Now would be a good time to email Taslim at: Taslim[dot]Bhamji[at]pkfcr[dot]co[dot]nz

Note: I understand Bitcoinica got a few false claims during their claim period back in May. If you don't have a valid claim with Bitcoinica already then please realize that sending a false claim to a court appointed liquidator is probably not a very bright idea.

[pof]

I didn't write a mail to a liquidator before, would anyone be so kind to post a template of a creditor claim here? Thank you!

[repentance]

I didn't write a mail to a liquidator before, would anyone be so kind to post a template of a creditor claim here? Thank you!

This is the standard format used for creditor's claims in NZ (this one's the one for estates administered by the Official Assignee).

http://www.insolvency.govt.nz/cms/pdf-library/forms/Claim%20form

Private liquidators usually have their own claim forms.  You can see an example of one at the end of this First Report to Creditors (this is a different company from the one handling the Bitcoinica liquidation).

http://www.mvp.co.nz/media/reports/awmwaste1streport.pdf

These just give you a general idea of the type of information required.  The company handling the liquidation will likely have its own form but the basic information required will be the same.

[pof]

Thanks!

[tbcoin]

What happen with open positions? can be claimed?
It was never clear whether bitcoinica attitude about this it was lawful  ...

[repentance]

What happen with open positions? can be claimed?
It was never clear whether bitcoinica attitude about this it was lawful  ...

Only the liquidator can answer any questions about that.  Hopefully he'll be able to sort out his account and post here soon. 

[MPOE-PR]

This is pretty good for Bitcoin in the sense that some liquidators are now forced to figure out how to treat Bitcoins, something they wouldn't have done otherwise.

[epetroel]

To add a bit to this, I e-mailed Taslim as well and got a response back from him today. 

I specifically asked if they had any information from the original claims process that Bitcoinica set up previously, and he replied that they do not.  So even if you submitted a claim previously through Bitcoinica, you will almost certainly need to re-submit your claim along with supporting information through the liquidator.

[ninjarobot]

I'm kind of baffled that they don't have the existing claimsDB that Bitcoinica worked on. After all isn't the liquidator supposed to take control of all Bitcoinica assets and IP (Including this database?). Are the previous operators unwilling to hand it over, if so why?

The existing claimsDB is key here as it should also contain records of which creditors have already been paid back and to what extend.

[repentance]

To add a bit to this, I e-mailed Taslim as well and got a response back from him today. 

I specifically asked if they had any information from the original claims process that Bitcoinica set up previously, and he replied that they do not.  So even if you submitted a claim previously through Bitcoinica, you will almost certainly need to re-submit your claim along with supporting information through the liquidator.

You will absolutely need to submit a claim to the liquidator.  Even when the liquidator has the full records of the company this is still required by law.  I'd advise people to make their claims as accurate as possible.  Liquidators can reject disputed claims and they also have the power to subordinate claims under certain circumstances.  People need to bear in mind that this is a legal process and that knowingly providing false information is an offence which can bite you in the ass.  If you try to game the system you may end up not being paid at all.

[tbcoin]

Taslim Bhamji mail excerpt:
...
You will receive a copy of the liquidators first report next week along with a claim form for you to complete with which you can attach your supporting documentation.
...

[disclaimer201]

sub

[PKFCR]

Dear Investors

I confirm that Steve Lawrence & I, of PKF Corporate Recovery & Insolvency (Auckland) Limited have been appointed liquidators of the Bitcoinica Limited Partnership, which is registered in New Zealand. We are currently collecting information  and records and our immediate priority is securing the investor funds (in both cash and Bitcoins) and determining investor balances. It is too early to know how long the liquidation process will take, but we would like to move as quickly as possible towards a distribution to investors/creditors.

With this in mind, we would be grateful if all investors and creditors could email us with:
1. Their address and contact details;
2. Details of any amounts owed (both in bitcoins and/or currency); and
3. Supporting documentation for the claim;

Please send your details to taslim.bhamji@pkfcr.co.nz

The Liquidators’ first report is due to be sent to all creditors by 26 November 2012, but we are unable to do so if we do not have contact details for creditors or investors.  Our report will provide you with further details on the liquidation process.

We would also appreciate feedback from investors on whether they would prefer to receive a distribution in the form of Bitcoins (where possible) or whether they would prefer a straightforward cash distribution. We are still seeking to determine what options are available to us at law, and will let investors know in due course.

Lastly, we are aware of legal proceedings underway in California against the Limited Partnership. The Liquidators have sought to have the Limited Partnership withdrawn from the proceedings on the basis that it is in liquidation. We are concerned that the plaintiff investors may be seeking to better their position ahead of other investors, and we wish to see everyone treated fairly and equally.

If you have any further queries, please contact Taslim Bhamji on the email address provided.

Kind regards

Anthony McCullagh
Joint Liquidator
Bitcoinica LP (In Liquidation)

[repentance]

For those who aren't aware of it, the post above me was made by the liquidators themselves.  PKFCR is the company handling the liquidation.  Good to see that they got their forum account sorted out and will now be able to answer questions directly.

[tritium]

What constitutes supporting documentation? I sent everything in bitcoins so would the block explorer transaction numbers count, I could forward all emails I received from bitcoinica but that doesn't add up to the whole balance as email confirmations weren't activated until later.

I am really glad things are moving now though

[BCB]

Sub

[Transisto]

...
We would also appreciate feedback from investors on whether they would prefer to receive a distribution in the form of Bitcoins (where possible) or whether they would prefer a straightforward cash distribution. We are still seeking to determine what options are available to us at law, and will let investors know in due course.
...

I've lost so much to incompetency,
I think you should keep our BTC in an escrow while you sort things out and demand AML details for USD who could become subject to a claw-back.

USD stay in USD, BTC stay in BTC.  I really wouldn't want to risk loosing more through your use of BTC exchanges.

[2GOOD]

What happen with open positions? can be claimed?
It was never clear whether bitcoinica attitude about this it was lawful  ...

Interesting question, I had around 50 coins bought at less than 5USD but since Bitcoinica lost the database this will be impossible to prove.

[repentance]

Just a quick reminder that it's Saturday afternoon down here so you might not get a response from the liquidator until NZ business hours on Monday.

[kokjo]

sub

[btcx]

Lastly, we are aware of legal proceedings underway in California against the Limited Partnership. The Liquidators have sought to have the Limited Partnership withdrawn from the proceedings on the basis that it is in liquidation. We are concerned that the plaintiff investors may be seeking to better their position ahead of other investors, and we wish to see everyone treated fairly and equally.

This is news to us.  We haven't received any communications in this regard and we have no intention of dropping the suit.  In fact, we haven't even personally received any contact from the liquidators regarding our claims, which is strange given that we probably make up > 50% of the total money being owed.  We await the liquidator's finding as to the responsibilities of the individual Bitcoinica directors, investors, founders.  If the liquidators wish to help our case against the other defendants, we might be willing to drop Bitcoinica from the suit.

[EpicBacon]

Just saw this thread today, email sent.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Lastly, we are aware of legal proceedings underway in California against the Limited Partnership. The Liquidators have sought to have the Limited Partnership withdrawn from the proceedings on the basis that it is in liquidation. We are concerned that the plaintiff investors may be seeking to better their position ahead of other investors, and we wish to see everyone treated fairly and equally.

This is news to us.  We haven't received any communications in this regard and we have no intention of dropping the suit.  In fact, we haven't even personally received any contact from the liquidators regarding our claims, which is strange given that we probably make up > 50% of the total money being owed.  We await the liquidator's finding as to the responsibilities of the individual Bitcoinica directors, investors, founders.  If the liquidators wish to help our case against the other defendants, we might be willing to drop Bitcoinica from the suit.

This is interesting. What the hell is going on here?

~Bruno K~

[repentance]

This is news to us.  We haven't received any communications in this regard and we have no intention of dropping the suit.  In fact, we haven't even personally received any contact from the liquidators regarding our claims, which is strange given that we probably make up > 50% of the total money being owed.  We await the liquidator's finding as to the responsibilities of the individual Bitcoinica directors, investors, founders.  If the liquidators wish to help our case against the other defendants, we might be willing to drop Bitcoinica from the suit.

The liquidators have stated that they don't have Bitcoinica's records, which puts them in a peculiar situation regarding attempting to contact alleged creditors.  They literally need creditors to contact them at this point, so you guys might want to get your lawyers onto that. I don't think this is the appropriate thread in which to discuss your lawsuit but I'd strongly suggest that you obtain an opinion from a NZ insolvency lawyer regarding the pros and cons of including Bitcoinica in the lawsuit at this point.  The liquidator cannot advise you on this point and you need solid legal advice on the implications of trying to cut deals with the liquidator.

[Raoul Duke]

sub

Sub

sub

There's a Watchlist link for that.

[BCB]

sub

Sub

sub

There's a Watchlist link for that.

Sorry - it doesn't always work.

[MPOE-PR]

Lastly, we are aware of legal proceedings underway in California against the Limited Partnership. The Liquidators have sought to have the Limited Partnership withdrawn from the proceedings on the basis that it is in liquidation. We are concerned that the plaintiff investors may be seeking to better their position ahead of other investors, and we wish to see everyone treated fairly and equally.

This is news to us.  We haven't received any communications in this regard and we have no intention of dropping the suit.  In fact, we haven't even personally received any contact from the liquidators regarding our claims, which is strange given that we probably make up > 50% of the total money being owed.  We await the liquidator's finding as to the responsibilities of the individual Bitcoinica directors, investors, founders.  If the liquidators wish to help our case against the other defendants, we might be willing to drop Bitcoinica from the suit.

And the plot thickens....

Not to argue with your counsel, but it would seem Bitcoinica will be dropped as a matter of course once the liquidators file notice with the court (if they do, of course). This obviously hasn't much to do with the rest of the defendants (although iirc at least one was filing motions to dismiss for lack of personal jurisdiction etc).

[disclaimer201]

How is it that as a private person, you can open a company under a foreign jurisdiction and then claim not to be personally
responsible for lack of jurisdiction once shtf? Seems like sound business to me.

[Herodes]

Personally I'd to some investigation and take a couple of phone conversations to verify the legitimacy of this. After all, it could be some scheme to lure even more money from users. Ie. "just pay a small fee, and your money will be released soon".

I haven't done any investigation, since I don't have a dog in this fight, and if anyone got insulted from this post, I appologize, I just think one can't be careful enough when dealing with substantional funds and personal information.

[myself]

Dear Investors

I confirm that Steve Lawrence & I, of PKF Corporate Recovery & Insolvency (Auckland) Limited have been appointed liquidators of the Bitcoinica Limited Partnership, which is registered in New Zealand. We are currently collecting information  and records and our immediate priority is securing the investor funds (in both cash and Bitcoins) and determining investor balances. It is too early to know how long the liquidation process will take, but we would like to move as quickly as possible towards a distribution to investors/creditors.

With this in mind, we would be grateful if all investors and creditors could email us with:
1. Their address and contact details;
2. Details of any amounts owed (both in bitcoins and/or currency); and
3. Supporting documentation for the claim;

Please send your details to taslim.bhamji@pkfcr.co.nz

The Liquidators’ first report is due to be sent to all creditors by 26 November 2012, but we are unable to do so if we do not have contact details for creditors or investors.  Our report will provide you with further details on the liquidation process.

We would also appreciate feedback from investors on whether they would prefer to receive a distribution in the form of Bitcoins (where possible) or whether they would prefer a straightforward cash distribution. We are still seeking to determine what options are available to us at law, and will let investors know in due course.

Lastly, we are aware of legal proceedings underway in California against the Limited Partnership. The Liquidators have sought to have the Limited Partnership withdrawn from the proceedings on the basis that it is in liquidation. We are concerned that the plaintiff investors may be seeking to better their position ahead of other investors, and we wish to see everyone treated fairly and equally.

If you have any further queries, please contact Taslim Bhamji on the email address provided.

Kind regards

Anthony McCullagh
Joint Liquidator
Bitcoinica LP (In Liquidation)

hwo you will deal with accounts that used bitcoinica codes ? since there is no proof of deposit

[repentance]

Personally I'd to some investigation and take a couple of phone conversations to verify the legitimacy of this. After all, it could be some scheme to lure even more money from users. Ie. "just pay a small fee, and your money will be released soon".

I haven't done any investigation, since I don't have a dog in this fight, and if anyone got insulted from this post, I appologize, I just think one can't be careful enough when dealing with substantional funds and personal information.

I can confirm the matter was listed for hearing on 1 November.  I checked the NZ High Court list the day before.  It's probably worth remembering that it was Patrick who first announced that Bitcoinica had been put into liquidation that day and who the liquidators were, whereas it was Wendon named in the court listing as making the liquidation application.  There is literally no reason for Patrick to mislead people about this.

The firm is legitimate but people should absolutely be open about any concerns they have.  Many users aren't going to be familiar with insolvency processes, let alone foreign ones so some things about it might just plain not make sense until they seek clarification.

[bitcoinBull]

I e-mailed Mr Bhamji at taslim.bhamji@pkfcr.co.nz with my claim today, answering his questions 1, 2 and 3.

I only had one deposit using mtgox (provided the mtgox code), so I expect my claim should be easy to verify.

[repentance]

I e-mailed Mr Bhamji at taslim.bhamji@pkfcr.co.nz with my claim today, answering his questions 1, 2 and 3.

I only had one deposit using mtgox (provided the mtgox code), so I expect my claim should be easy to verify.

It would be nice if MtGox would make a public statement about the extent to which they're going to co-operate with the liquidator and if they will do so free of charge.  They implied back when the whole Zhou/Chinese relic collector story blew up that they wouldn't release any Bitcoinica funds to anyone except a liquidator/receiver but I'm not sure whether they've made any comments since then or ever mentioned the extent to which they will make their own information available to the liquidator if it's needed to verify user claims.

[Transisto]

Here is 1st report from PKF (Liquidator)
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2479243/Liquidators%20First%20Report.pdf

Edit : Mistake ? They have subtracted owed USD from estimated USD value of owed BTCs ...

It's as if they intended to pay owed USD by selling BTCs and that's it.

[repentance]

Here is 1st report from PKF (Liquidator)
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2479243/Liquidators%20First%20Report.pdf

The most interesting thing in that is Ator - a NZ company of which Tihan and Chris Heaslip are directors - being named as a creditor along with Wendon.  The report doesn't note whether either Wendon or Ator are exerting a secured or preferential interest (Tihan has previously stated that Wendon would waive it's right to be treated as a secured creditor).

It will be good to see some actual numbers in the second report.

Everyone who hasn't yet filed a claim please note that the cut-off date for doing so has been set at 20 January 2013.

It's as if they intended to pay owed USD by selling BTCs and that's it.

They've stated both previously and in the report itself that they are seeking legal advice regarding whether they can pay creditors in both dollars and Bitcoins.  If they can, then depending on the exact holding at MtGox they're going to have to buy BTC with $ or sell BTC for USD to ensure that unsecured creditors all receive the same proportion of what they're owed regardless of whether they're paid in BTC or USD.

[dancupid]

Does this need to be in writing or will an email suffice?
I notice there's a signature required on the form.

[repentance]

Does this need to be in writing or will an email suffice?
I notice there's a signature required on the form.

It says you can email, fax or post it.  If you're going to email it, print the form and sign it and then send them a scanned copy.

[2GOOD]

OK

I've received the email too, The only thing clear to me now is that I have to send the claim before 20 January 2013. And they are using 11.76938USD for BTC price.

How do you understand the 5c and 5d where you have to put Open orders and Total Claim.. how to calculate Total Claim!?

[repentance]

OK

I've received the email too, The only thing clear to me now is that I have to send the claim before 20 January 2013. And they are using 11.76938USD for BTC price.

That's just an estimate of the value of the Bitcoins on MtGox and the value of the Bitcoin claims at this point in time.  The early estimates of the value of assets are often incorrect.  The way I'm reading it, right now they want you to list any USD you're owed and any BTC you're owed separately (and not to convert one to the other).  They're not asking you for the dollar value of the BTC you're owed.  If you're only owed Bitcoin, then list only Bitcoin.  If you're only owed USD, then list only USD.  If you're owed both, then list the amounts of each you're owed.

[2GOOD]

OK

I've received the email too, The only thing clear to me now is that I have to send the claim before 20 January 2013. And they are using 11.76938USD for BTC price.

That's just an estimate of the value of the Bitcoins on MtGox and the value of the Bitcoin claims at this point in time.  The early estimates of the value of assets are often incorrect.  The way I'm reading it, right now they want you to list any USD you're owed and any BTC you're owed separately (and not to convert one to the other).  They're not asking you for the dollar value of the BTC you're owed.  If you're only owed Bitcoin, then list only Bitcoin.  If you're only owed USD, then list only USD.  If you're owed both, then list the amounts of each you're owed.

What about Open Orders, and Total Claim !?

[tbcoin]

Ok, our bitcoins understand that freezing in 11.76938, but not the bitcoins of bitcoinica, so if from here to when selling their bitcoins to pay the price is $ 20, they really will have more money than those given in the report and a good margin regarding our claim in BTC, since it seems that everything is going to pay in dollars.

Unless the price freeze only references open positions and btc will be paid in bt

[repentance]

What about Open Orders, and Total Claim !?

I'd seek clarification from the liquidator about filling in the open orders section and how to include it in your total claim.  Perhaps when you contact him you could suggest that he make a post about it or send out an email about it as I suspect many people are going to have the same question.

[tbcoin]

What about Open Orders, and Total Claim !?

I think that here we have to add your balance in dollars and your position in profits regard 11.76938.

Short positions ... I do not know what they do with them.

[ninjarobot]

Just read the first liquidation report. Looks decent.

A couple of things come to mind:

• Is the term creditor and investor interchangeable or do they have different legal implications? Or are all the investors also unsecured creditors?
• The creditors (us) have 9 days to decide if we want to call a creditor meeting. Given the complexity of the case I think this might be a good idea. However the liquidator mentions that the associated costs is one of the reasons to forego this meeting. What would the costs be roughly?
• The 500K MtGox number seems very vague and rough. Considering bitcoins have appreciated a lot (5USD > 12USD) since. This number seems very low.
• Do the MtGox funds include the funds Patrick Murck was able to recover from Zhou from the MtGox theft?
  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97272.msg1098303#msg1098303
• Also what is the status regarding the 40.000USD held by AurumXchange that Zhou said would be part of the recovery funds once AML would clear?
  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95795.msg1062656#msg1062656
  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95795.msg1064858#msg1064858

Finally it is unclear if Tihan covered the linode and rackspace hacks. On 2012/04/24 Donald wrote the following:

While Bitcoinica had some previous security concerns, namely where the attack on the Linode cloud hosting provider generated them a loss of 40k BTC, Bitcoinica has fully recovered from the loss and no longer depends so heavily on 3rd party platforms. The Bitcoinica reigns have been taken up by the recognized development group called the Bitcoin Consultancy which have a record of solid security in the tumultuous world of Bitcoin.

http://bitcoinmedia.com/first-licensed-advanced-trading-platform-for-bitcoin/

But according to Transisto:

There was supposedly 62101 BTC of stolen fund to be covered by LP,  43554 BTC for Linode hack + RACKSPACE 18547 BTC = 62101,
Tihan confirmed he only paid 25000 of this, leaving another 37101 BTC missing.  That was supposedly the reason why Patrick didn't wanted to pursue returning funds anymore (unless funds were covered).
Patrick say even that this 25k BTC return is complete BS.  Tihan couldn't provide proof of transfer, stating there is no trace of inner Mtgox transfer.

Other things that come to mind:

• Does the liquidator have records of all partial claim payouts made earlier & Is there a chance there will be clawbacks? Bitcoinica used 5USD as the number to settle claims and close positions. The liquidator is using almost 12USD.
• I understand that the creditors can call a meeting to set up a liquidation committee. How does this work?
• Can we get a list of all expenses made by Bitcoinica since they shut down the site in May? Are they significant & justified?
• Will there be intermittent updates from the liquidator or do we have to expect radio silence for another 6 months until the next official report comes out?

[repentance]

A creditors’ meeting is not called for every liquidation.

- Generally creditors’ meetings will only be held where they are likely to be of benefit to the administration.

- They may also be held in particularly large liquidations involving complex issues where the liquidator considers that it would be appropriate for creditors to assist in making decisions.

- Creditors’ meetings are not an opportunity for creditors to badger the company director or to attempt to extract some retribution for financial losses suffered.

- Where a liquidator decides not to call a creditors' meeting, the liquidator must give notice of that decision (in writing to the creditors and by placing a public notice)

- If a creditor would like a meeting to be held, they can make a request in writing to the liquidator setting out why they consider that holding a creditors’ meeting would benefit the administration of the liquidation.

- Public notices of meetings must be arranged by the liquidator.

http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/learn-about/closing-a-company/business-in-difficulty/liquidation/what-happens-during-a-liquidation

Obviously the major question is whether creditors travelling to New Zealand to attend a creditors' meeting would benefit the administration of the estate in any way.

Creditors need to keep in mind that liquidators are paid by the hour and they have a duty to keep liquidation costs to a minimum and not take actions which are unlikely to result in a benefit to creditors.

Many of your questions can only be answered by the liquidators themselves and some they won't have answers for right now (this is absolutely normal so don't panic about that - the numbers in the Statement of Affairs in the first report are usually guesses - and they've already indicated that there are some matters on which they're waiting for legal advice).  

Just stay mindful of the fact that they are not working free of charge and that fees for the time they spend on this liquidation and any legal actions they take on behalf of creditors will come out of the estate.  

[MPOE-PR]

Anyone got a pastebin of that list yet ? 

[repentance]

Anyone got a pastebin of that list yet ? 

Wait until the next report when the amounts are added.  It will be linked within 30 seconds of the first person receiving it. 

[nrd525]

You can download your history from MtGox. Useful for verifying deposits/withdrawals.

I'm not sure if they added this because of my support ticket, or always had it.

Account History - CSV icon - one is three months and one is greater than 3 months.

[2GOOD]

I have some questions, what supporting documents do we have... Do they need some ID Card scanned, or it's about sent Bitcoins. I've used satoshi client to send coins to Bitcoinica?!

And I have to complete the form, sing, scan and send?!

[tbcoin]

At the end what happened to the second theft ("Chen Jianhai")?, was supposed culprit was identified and was going to return the money. The report referred to the second robbery, but no the recovery of funds.

[repentance]

At the end what happened to the second theft ("Chen Jianhai")?, was supposed culprit was identified and was going to return the money. The report referred to the second robbery, but no the recovery of funds.

The recovery of funds was reported here by the lawyer who facilitated it.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97272.msg1098303#msg1098303

[tbcoin]

At the end what happened to the second theft ("Chen Jianhai")?, was supposed culprit was identified and was going to return the money. The report referred to the second robbery, but no the recovery of funds.

The recovery of funds was reported here by the lawyer who facilitated it.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97272.msg1098303#msg1098303

Then it is understood that Mr.Taslim Bhanji is aware.

Although the amount indicated in the report ($ 500,000), seems little.

[Transisto]

How do we write open position on the form ?

lets say I had a 2:1 account I had spent 1500 BTC to purchase 3000 BTC at 4.70$

Would my claim be as follow ?

Cash Owed : 0
BTC Owed : 0
Detail of position : 3000 BTC @ 4.70$  2:1
Total claim :  0 USD$ , 1691 BTC Closed at 5$ or at todays price

[HorseRider]

How do we write open position on the form ?

lets say I had a 2:1 account I had spent 1500 BTC to purchase 3000 BTC at 4.70$

Would my claim be as follow ?

Cash Owed : 0
BTC Owed : 0
Detail of position : 3000 BTC @ 4.70$  2:1
Total claim :  0 USD$ , 1691 BTC Closed at 5$ or at todays price

The leverage does not matter here. You don't have to tell the leverage ratio.
and bitcoin do own you 1500 BTC (provided your claim)
You can write it in this way:

Cash Owed : 0
BTC Owed : 1500 BTC
Detail of position : long 3000 BTC @ 4.70$

Total claim :  
0 USD$ ,
1500 BTC
profit of long 3000 BTC @ 4.70$

P.S. According to the reply from liquidator, whether the position  will be included is still not decided, and I think OK what ever the decision is, as long as the users are fairly treated.

[Herodes]

Well - by the time they manage to distribute any reminding funds, I guess 40%+ will go to lawyers fees. Man, how difficult can this be ?

[disclaimer201]

Thanks again, Intersango and Zhou. Well done. At least the reputations of both parties are permanently destroyed. Intersango is pretty much dead in the water and everyone will listen to the "zhoutonged" christmas carrol this holiday season.

[QuantumKiwi]

If anyone would like anything done here, or would like me to act as a rep on behalf of you let me know.

Im in New Zealand and willing to help anyone effected by the Bitcoinica saga.

If there is any meetings of which you would like a livestream for, let us know.

I also have lawyers available here locally if need be.

feel free to email me or my staff - administrator@quantumkiwi.com.

[Herodes]

If anyone would like anything done here, or would like me to act as a rep on behalf of you let me know.

Im in New Zealand and willing to help anyone effected by the Bitcoinica saga.

If there is any meetings of which you would like a livestream for, let us know.

I also have lawyers available here locally if need be.

feel free to email me or my staff - administrator@quantumkiwi.com.

If you want to help, try to get in touch with MemoryDealers, he has a rather large part outstanding. Not that the others are not equally important, but he was the one I thought of.

[MemoryDealers]

I'm also happy to whatever I can to help,  but I am not sure what that could be at this point.
Anyone can email me at roger at memorydealers.com

[Transisto]

Did the liquidator acknowledged reception of your claims via email ?

[m0mchil]

I explicitly asked for acknowledgement in a separate message and received one. It was not cryptographically signed though. I guess no respectable business will ever use such funny things as asymmetric cryptography these days.

[disclaimer201]

I signed the form and wanted to send it to the admin@pkfc address, but the file size is very limited, so my emails keep bouncing back to me.

Even tried to compress it and cut more and more of the supporting info, but no luck.

Anyone else encounter the same problem? Any ideas?

[pof]

Did you use the right mail? (Taslim.Bhamji@pkfcr.co.nz)
How much MB is the file?

[disclaimer201]

Actually, I sent it to admin@pkfcr.co.nz as it says on the form itself. I will try to send it to him personally instead now. The file is 10Mb or maybe 14MB.

[myself]

The file is 10Mb or maybe 14MB.

[Herodes]

I signed the form and wanted to send it to the admin@pkfc address, but the file size is very limited, so my emails keep bouncing back to me.

Even tried to compress it and cut more and more of the supporting info, but no luck.

Anyone else encounter the same problem? Any ideas?

upload document to web and send a link ?

[tbcoin]

Actually, I sent it to admin@pkfcr.co.nz as it says on the form itself. I will try to send it to him personally instead now. The file is 10Mb or maybe 14MB.

Really? maybe you can reduce quality of pictures.

Remember January 20

[myself]

so you try to upload all the pdf pages or just the last page ?

[disclaimer201]

Thank you. I shouldn't have scanned all the pages. That wasn't very smart. Didn't think that 10Mb would be a problem, but I guess it is.

[myself]

you should send only the last page no ?

[disclaimer201]

Oh, that's what you mean. I did. But what about "supporting" documentation?

[myself]

But what about "supporting" documentation?

oh you mean wire transfers and all that

[pof]

Try to split files between more emails. I recommend you to write in every message the number of the mail, and how many mail have you sent   to them.

[zero3112]

Any word on whats next?

[Herodes]

Any word on whats next?

Yes, lawyers are accumulating hours, so that when time for payout comes, 70% goes to the lawyers.

[MPOE-PR]

Any word on whats next?

Yes, lawyers are accumulating hours, so that when time for payout comes, 70% goes to the lawyers.

Werd.

[2GOOD]

I've sent my claim form today to admin@ and to Taslim.Bhamji@ it seems that Taslim.Bhamji is in vacation till 21st as auto reply received.

Did you received some confirmation form the office email.

[disclaimer201]

I solved my problem. Scanning stuff at a lower resolution and using a better program did the trick. Having very little hope to see anything back though, but what the heck, one has to try anyway.

The major issue will be that most of us have no real proof other than the blockchain to support our claim. And as I read elsewhere, how do you want to prove that the deposit address you sent bitcoins to really belonged to Bitcoinica. It's not like they are going to admit it or help out in any way which addresses belonged to them. I didn't even have a MtGox account, only registered weeks before the hack without becoming verified yet, and never sent or received fiat money to Bitcoinica, either.

The only proof I have is some automated emails from Bitcoinica, and that genjix reimbursed me for 50% of my open claim when there still was something like a reimbursement going on.

[naima53]

any news? Please place link (if present), I find it hard to translate the whole forum 

[yepreally]

I'm curious, has anyone heard anything new on this yet?

[tbcoin]

I'm curious, has anyone heard anything new on this yet?

Nothing

[Transisto]

anyone having problem mailing them ?

Code:

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

     admin@pkfcr.co.nz

Technical details of permanent failure:
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the server for the recipient domain pkfcr.co.nz by mail.pkfcr.co.nz. [125.236.200.225].

The error that the other server returned was:
550 5.7.1 Requested action not taken: message refused

[flower1024]

anyone having problem mailing them ?

Code:

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

     admin@pkfcr.co.nz

Technical details of permanent failure:
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the server for the recipient domain pkfcr.co.nz by mail.pkfcr.co.nz. [125.236.200.225].

The error that the other server returned was:
550 5.7.1 Requested action not taken: message refused

why did you mail to admin? maybe this user does not exist.
i used this address Taslim[dot]Bhamji[at]pkfcr[dot]co[dot]nz a few month ago and it did work. see first post.

message refused could  mean that you just hit der spam filter

[Transisto]

That's the email they ask claims to be sent in the PKF 1st report.

Taslim... THANKS

Edit : Same problem with aslim[dot]Bhamji[at]pkfcr[dot]co[dot]nz

[Herodes]

If anyone wants to know the status, find the phone number of those involved, and give them a call.

[flower1024]

That's the email they ask claims to be sent in the PKF 1st report.

Taslim... THANKS

Edit : Same problem with aslim[dot]Bhamji[at]pkfcr[dot]co[dot]nz

i wrote an email 5 min ago asking for a status update at it has gone though.
you address is missing a T btw.

so i guess you have a spam issue... try gmail or just pick up your phone

[naima53]

I thought it could be a scam, too, the purpose of which is fishing for information about your area. Now I'm afraid to sleep, afraid that knock on my door at night yakuza. 

[Transisto]

It seems like I'm able to send basic text message but they may have some very stringent link filtering even for "mailto:"
I'm not sure if they've even received my claim yet.

[2GOOD]

Hey the site is working, so they may just have some mail server problems..

[epetroel]

I sent my docs over to them a couple weeks ago and had no problems.  Got a confirmation e-mail from them as well that they had received my docs.

[naima53]

I appeal to the liquidator of the company, the price of coins reached a high level, if the remaining coins to sell now - may be enough to Fiat that would cover all losses for claimants.  To sell at a time when the market is strong demand for the coin, and not after the correction. Believe me, I've been around for a long time watching this economic experiment, though

[rdponticelli]

I appeal to the liquidator of the company, the price of coins reached a high level, if the remaining coins to sell now - may be enough to Fiat that would cover all losses for claimants.  To sell at a time when the market is strong demand for the coin, and not after the correction. Believe me, I've been around for a long time watching this economic experiment, though

A huge part of the debt is denominated in BTC. Most BTC holders won't be happy if somebody decides to sell theirs BTCs to pay some others theirs fiat...

[MPOE-PR]

I'm glad that everyone got their money back, even if it took a year or so.

Oh, wait....

[dancingnancy]

This shit is seriously taking forever.

I have contacted the liquidators and the reply is always "we are still in communication with Mt Gox."

Not really sure what the fuck this means anymore, I would really like (some portion of) my BTC back.

[disclaimer201]

Let's hope Mt.Gox will release whatever coins are left. They always claim they want to cooperate with authorities, so let's see if that is actually true.

[naima53]

I appeal to the liquidator of the company, the price of coins reached a high level, if the remaining coins to sell now - may be enough to Fiat that would cover all losses for claimants.  To sell at a time when the market is strong demand for the coin, and not after the correction. Believe me, I've been around for a long time watching this economic experiment, though

A huge part of the debt is denominated in BTC. Most BTC holders won't be happy if somebody decides to sell theirs BTCs to pay some others theirs fiat...

I also have a claim there in coins too. But, you see, that's not fair - then the rate was 5 +, and it does not mean that I would not sell these coins for example, 5.5  Or, for example, has not lost in satoshidice 

[pof]

Hi -----,
There is no further news to report on at this stage.  We are still corresponding with Mt Gox in relation to the accounts held and until this information is made available to the liquidators, we are not able to progress the liquidation.

We will provide an update to all investors when there is new information to report.

Kind Regards
Taslim Bhamji
Senior Insolvency Administrator

[pof]

To All Investors
 
We have received a number of requests for updates on the liquidation of Bitcoinica LP (In Liquidation).
As noted in my email of 20th December 2012, we have requested details of the account records held by Mt Gox.  To date, Mt Gox has refused to release these details on account of confidentiality and has requested that the Liquidators provide various details of the accounts before it releases this information.  As reported in the Liquidators first report, we do not have any company records whatsoever and are reliant upon the assistance of the limited partners and Mt Gox to take control of the bitcoins and cash assets.  We cannot make any progress in the liquidation unless Mt Gox provides us with access to Bitcoinica’s accounts.  We are currently awaiting information from the limited partners so that we can progress the account access issues with Mt Gox.
We apologise for the slow progress in the liquidation, but hopefully the investors will appreciate that we are making every effort to recover the bitcoins and funds in order to make a distribution to creditors as soon as possible.  We will continue to provide updates periodically to keep all investors abreast of the liquidation progress.

 
Kind Regards
Taslim Bhamji
Senior Insolvency Administrator

[MPOE-PR]

To All Investors
 
We have received a number of requests for updates on the liquidation of Bitcoinica LP (In Liquidation).
As noted in my email of 20th December 2012, we have requested details of the account records held by Mt Gox.  To date, Mt Gox has refused to release these details on account of confidentiality and has requested that the Liquidators provide various details of the accounts before it releases this information.  As reported in the Liquidators first report, we do not have any company records whatsoever and are reliant upon the assistance of the limited partners and Mt Gox to take control of the bitcoins and cash assets.  We cannot make any progress in the liquidation unless Mt Gox provides us with access to Bitcoinica’s accounts.  We are currently awaiting information from the limited partners so that we can progress the account access issues with Mt Gox.
We apologise for the slow progress in the liquidation, but hopefully the investors will appreciate that we are making every effort to recover the bitcoins and funds in order to make a distribution to creditors as soon as possible.  We will continue to provide updates periodically to keep all investors abreast of the liquidation progress.

 
Kind Regards
Taslim Bhamji
Senior Insolvency Administrator

So it's dead.

[dancingnancy]

Why can't Mt. Gox do this?  Just sitting on everyone's coins for now it seems. 

[disclaimer201]

Probably a combination of Gox and non-cooperation from the "gang". Whenever Gox claims they have to freeze accounts because
of AML or any other possible governmental/authorities concerns they were never asked the f to care about in the future you can rest assured it has nothing to do with actual authority concerns. The liquidators are appointed by a New Zealando court, so I guess unless those authorities aren't the CIA Gox won't give a shit.

After all that has gone down, I really don't see how this exchange is still number one when there are clearly more reliable alternatives out there.

[repentance]

If I was a cynic, I'd suspect that MtGox is trying to avoid handing Bitcoinica funds over to the liquidator while the Cartmell et al lawsuit is in progress so that whatever Bitcoinica funds they hold will be available to satisfy any judgement awarded by the California court.

[nrd525]

Everyone should email MtGox to ask for their prompt cooperation.

[disclaimer201]

Good idea, actually. Which address?

Also, I think the issue might deserve its own thread along the lines of "MtGox holding coins hostage from liquidators and bitcoinica customers".

[dancingnancy]

Interested to hear the response.

[repentance]

Interested to hear the response.

It will be plausible deniability all the way down.  Everyone's lawyers are going to protect their own client's interest here.

[dancingnancy]

Interested to hear the response.

It will be plausible deniability all the way down.  Everyone's lawyers are going to protect their own client's interest here.

That's pretty much been everyone's story this whole time.  Starting to get slightly old with BTC @ $27 each.

[repentance]

That's pretty much been everyone's story this whole time.  Starting to get slightly old with BTC @ $27 each.

Even more galling when you remember that the way that funds were returned following the MtGox intrusion meant that more was returned in USD than in BTC.

Although we know from Patrick Murck's posts how much was recovered following that intrusion, not even the liquidator knows how much is in Bitcoinica's MtGox accounts.

It's ironic that MtGox was fine about handing over information to AurumXchange following the intrusion but won't hand over information to a court-appointed liquidator.  It's clearly not in the interests of Bitcoinica users that they with-hold that information.

I would hope that the business run by a board member of Bitcoin Foundation would co-operate with the liquidator and be seen to do so.

[Herodes]

We apologise for the slow progress in the liquidation, but hopefully the investors will appreciate that we are making every effort to recover the bitcoins and funds in order to make a distribution to creditors as soon as possible.
 
Kind Regards
Taslim Bhamji
Senior Insolvency Administrator

Basically what he's saying is: "Hi, I wake up every morning, have my breakfast, go to work, come home, have my dinner and go to bed." Then by the end of the month he collects his paycheck, which he gets no matter whether he claws any funds back to the Bitcoinica users or not.

Lawyers never care about anything but themselves. It's a sad world.

[repentance]

Basically what he's saying is: "Hi, I wake up every morning, have my breakfast, go to work, come home, have my dinner and go to bed." Then by the end of the month he collects his paycheck, which he gets no matter whether he claws any funds back to the Bitcoinica users or not.

Lawyers never care about anything but themselves. It's a sad world.

Actually, fees for NZ liquidators have to be approved by the court in advance.  It's one reason why they don't formally process claims until they have funds in hand ready to disburse.  They're bound by all sorts of rules regarding taking actions unlikely to result in a benefit to creditors - such as pursuing claw-back when there is little hope of recovery - and can be personally sued if they fuck up to the detriment of creditors.  

What you often see NZ liquidators do where pursuing claw-back would likely be unsuccessful is subordinate claims - either in part or in full.

Unfortunately, when liquidators have no access to the financial records and assets of an entity it's a very slow process.

[Herodes]

Basically what he's saying is: "Hi, I wake up every morning, have my breakfast, go to work, come home, have my dinner and go to bed." Then by the end of the month he collects his paycheck, which he gets no matter whether he claws any funds back to the Bitcoinica users or not.

Lawyers never care about anything but themselves. It's a sad world.

Actually, fees for NZ liquidators have to be approved by the court in advance.  It's one reason why they don't formally process claims until they have funds in hand ready to disburse.  They're bound by all sorts of rules regarding taking actions unlikely to result in a benefit to creditors - such as pursuing claw-back when there is little hope of recovery - and can be personally sued if they fuck up to the detriment of creditors.  

What you often see NZ liquidators do where pursuing claw-back would likely be unsuccessful is subordinate claims - either in part or in full.

Unfortunately, when liquidators have no access to the financial records of an entity it's a very slow process.

Thanks for the insight repentance. It's funny, criminals are never bound by any rules, but those trying to set things straight are.

[Monster Tent]

If I was a cynic, I'd suspect that MtGox is trying to avoid handing Bitcoinica funds over to the liquidator while the Cartmell et al lawsuit is in progress so that whatever Bitcoinica funds they hold will be available to satisfy any judgement awarded by the California court.

Withdrawing that many funds from Mt Gox at once might be impossible if they themselves are running fractional reserve.

[repentance]

Thanks for the insight repentance. It's funny, criminals are never bound by any rules, but those trying to set things straight are.

Unfortunately, if MtGox chooses not to recognise the liquidator's authority, the liquidator may have a hard time justifying an international lawsuit - from memory, the only funds recovered so far are those which were in Bitcoinica's bank account which wouldn't go very far at all.

As an aside, the California court made an interesting ruling on 25 January regarding its jurisdiction over Intersango.

LAW AND MOTION 302, RULING: THE COURT ADOPTED ITS TENTATIVE RULING WHICH WAS NOT CONTESTED. SPECIALLY APPEARING DEFENDANT INTERSANGO LTD.'S MOTION TO QUASH SERVICE OF PROCESS FOR LACK OF PERSONAL JURISDICTION IS GRANTED. PLAINTIFF FAILED TO PRODUCE FACTS SHOWING DEFENDANT INTERSANGO, LTD HAS ANY CALIFORNIA CONTACTS RELEVANT TO THIS CASE. ORDER SIGNED IN OPEN COURT. JUDGE: MARLA J. MILLER; CLERK: GINA GONZALES; COURT REPORTER: ANTHONY C. VAUGHN, CSR # 6185

[nrd525]

File a support request:
https://support.mtgox.com/home

[dancingnancy]

That's pretty much been everyone's story this whole time.  Starting to get slightly old with BTC @ $27 each.

I would hope that the business run by a board member of Bitcoin Foundation would co-operate with the liquidator and be seen to do so.

Who's this?  The owner of Mt. Gox?  This thing has taken so long and been so drawn out I can't even remember who stole what anymore.  Do you know the E-Mail of the owner of Gox?

[repentance]

File a support request:
https://support.mtgox.com/home

Their response will undoubtedly be that they're just following the advice of their lawyers, yada, yada, yada and that of course they really care about whether or not the average Bitcoinica user gets their funds back but they can't leave themselves open to liability.

Who's this?  The owner of Mt. Gox?  This thing has taken so long and been so drawn out I can't even remember who stole what anymore.  Do you know the E-Mail of the owner of Gox?

Mark Karpeles is the CEO of MtGox.  He's also on the board of Bitcoin Foundation.  He's usually best contacted on IRC, where his username is MagicalTux.

[Transisto]

Thanks for the insight repentance. It's funny, criminals are never bound by any rules, but those trying to set things straight are.

Unfortunately, if MtGox chooses not to recognise the liquidator's authority, the liquidator may have a hard time justifying an international lawsuit - from memory, the only funds recovered so far are those which were in Bitcoinica's bank account which wouldn't go very far at all.

As an aside, the California court made an interesting ruling on 25 January regarding its jurisdiction over Intersango.

LAW AND MOTION 302, RULING: THE COURT ADOPTED ITS TENTATIVE RULING WHICH WAS NOT CONTESTED. SPECIALLY APPEARING DEFENDANT INTERSANGO LTD.'S MOTION TO QUASH SERVICE OF PROCESS FOR LACK OF PERSONAL JURISDICTION IS GRANTED. PLAINTIFF FAILED TO PRODUCE FACTS SHOWING DEFENDANT INTERSANGO, LTD HAS ANY CALIFORNIA CONTACTS RELEVANT TO THIS CASE. ORDER SIGNED IN OPEN COURT. JUDGE: MARLA J. MILLER; CLERK: GINA GONZALES; COURT REPORTER: ANTHONY C. VAUGHN, CSR # 6185

I think MtGox doesn't doubt the authority of the liquidator but for good reason they doubt of the capability of the liquidator.

These guys have a hard time giving us an update per month,  Force us to produce proof of ownership for virtual assets using the pen, paper and fax method.  Their email system can't receive ANY url in email, and reject every such email with a clueless reject error  message.

To sum up,,, in three month, they seems to have done nothing.  Oh, they asked us in public if we prefer to be paid in BTC or USD ... the answer was obviously a personal choice.

I DO NOT WANT THIS LIQUIDATOR TO DO ANYTHING WITH MY BTC.

Sorry but I'd much prefer MtGox to sit on my BTC for a few year,,, At which time 250 BTC might be enough to afford a lawsuit with some teethes, bitcoin competent lawyers and judges.  Currently not even a handful of lawyer and I doubt any Judges can produce any meaningful ruling out of this mess.

I was Long Long LONG ! on BTC,...  not going to forget about this lost without a good fight. (Be careful)

[repentance]

Thanks for the insight repentance. It's funny, criminals are never bound by any rules, but those trying to set things straight are.

Unfortunately, if MtGox chooses not to recognise the liquidator's authority, the liquidator may have a hard time justifying an international lawsuit - from memory, the only funds recovered so far are those which were in Bitcoinica's bank account which wouldn't go very far at all.

As an aside, the California court made an interesting ruling on 25 January regarding its jurisdiction over Intersango.

LAW AND MOTION 302, RULING: THE COURT ADOPTED ITS TENTATIVE RULING WHICH WAS NOT CONTESTED. SPECIALLY APPEARING DEFENDANT INTERSANGO LTD.'S MOTION TO QUASH SERVICE OF PROCESS FOR LACK OF PERSONAL JURISDICTION IS GRANTED. PLAINTIFF FAILED TO PRODUCE FACTS SHOWING DEFENDANT INTERSANGO, LTD HAS ANY CALIFORNIA CONTACTS RELEVANT TO THIS CASE. ORDER SIGNED IN OPEN COURT. JUDGE: MARLA J. MILLER; CLERK: GINA GONZALES; COURT REPORTER: ANTHONY C. VAUGHN, CSR # 6185

I think MtGox doesn't doubt the authority of the liquidator but for good reason they doubt of the capability of the liquidator.

These guys have a hard time giving us an update per month,  Force us to produce proof of ownership for virtual assets using the pen, paper and fax method.  Their email system can't receive ANY url in email, and reject every such email with a clueless reject error  message.

To sum up,,, in three month, they seems to have done nothing.  Oh, they asked us in public if we prefer to be paid in BTC or USD ... the answer was obviously a personal choice.

I DO NOT WANT THIS LIQUIDATOR TO DO ANYTHING WITH MY BTC.

Sorry but I'd much prefer MtGox to sit on my BTC for a few year,,, At which time 250 BTC might be enough to afford a lawsuit with some teethes, bitcoin competent lawyers and judges.  Currently not even a handful of lawyer and I doubt any Judges can produce any meaningful ruling out of this mess.

I was Long Long LONG ! on BTC,...  not going to forget about this lost without a good fight. (Be careful)

You can apply to the NZ High Court to have the liquidator removed and another appointed.  Liquidators typically issue a report every 6 months.  It's not like they're working 8 hours a day on one liquidation, and there's very little they or anyone else can do without access to Bitcoinica's records and funds.

A great deal of legal stuff does still need to be done in hard copy - that is not unusual.  A court would require the same.

You're not obligated to make a claim in the liquidation.  You can certainly take separate legal action if you want, but expect it to cost tens of thousands of dollars with no certainty whatsoever that whoever you decide to sue will have any assets.

MtGox is unlikely to sit on Bitcoinica's funds for a few years.  They'll end up being released either to the liquidator or to the plaintiffs in the Cartmell lawsuit if they prevail in court.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Here's my take. Either Mark does everything in his power to accelerate this process or remove himself from the The Bitcoin Foundation board. As I read it now, Mt Gox can stonewall this process ad infinitum, meanwhile utilizing the funds for day-to-day operations, something I've previously claimed is happening. Do you honestly believe a bank wouldn't touch a million dollars, e.g., sitting in some liquidation account while litigation was in process? Using the same example, if that same million was no longer readily available, said bank would go into stall mode if it looked like there's a chance that it's about to be transferred out.

The funds were place with Mt Gox in good faith and being the most safest place to place them. Sadly, the latter is being proven true, for it's now so safe, nobody can touch it.

Maybe I'm off-base here, yet something to think about.

~Bruno K~

[MPOE-PR]

Here's my take. Either Mark does everything in his power to accelerate this process or remove himself from the The Bitcoin Foundation board. As I read it now, Mt Gox can stonewall this process ad infinitum, meanwhile utilizing the funds for day-to-day operations, something I've previously claimed is happening. Do you honestly believe a bank wouldn't touch a million dollars, e.g., sitting in some liquidation account while litigation was in process? Using the same example, if that same million was no longer readily available, said bank would go into stall mode if it looked like there's a chance that it's about to be transferred out.

The funds were place with Mt Gox in good faith and being the most safest place to place them. Sadly, the latter is being proven true, for it's now so safe, nobody can touch it.

Maybe I'm off-base here, yet something to think about.

~Bruno K~

This sort of stuff happens all the time, it's called venue shopping. Absent a domesticated court order MtGox can legally do whatever they please. Why should they consider the proceedings of some NZ authority above and beyond the proceedings of some CA authority? (Or vice-versa, for that matter). They don't really care either way, let all those people sort out their problems, get the court order. Whoever gets it first gets the jackpot.

You can't expect a company to expend the resources to follow international litigation. They're barely profitable on top of the expenses required by not getting hacked more than once a year, not having their email db dumped more than once a year and so forth.

[dancingnancy]

Here's my take. Either Mark does everything in his power to accelerate this process or remove himself from the The Bitcoin Foundation board. As I read it now, Mt Gox can stonewall this process ad infinitum, meanwhile utilizing the funds for day-to-day operations, something I've previously claimed is happening. Do you honestly believe a bank wouldn't touch a million dollars, e.g., sitting in some liquidation account while litigation was in process? Using the same example, if that same million was no longer readily available, said bank would go into stall mode if it looked like there's a chance that it's about to be transferred out.

The funds were place with Mt Gox in good faith and being the most safest place to place them. Sadly, the latter is being proven true, for it's now so safe, nobody can touch it.

Maybe I'm off-base here, yet something to think about.

~Bruno K~

That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking.  Why should he do anything from his POV?  He is just sitting in everyone else's money and can do what he pleases with it in the meantime.  It isn't sounding like from anything I have heard that he has to do anything else.  Wasn't Mr. Seale supposed to forward this process along somehow?  More or less sounds like everyone is happy to do nothing.

[realnowhereman]

I'm not happy that my money is not under my control; but provided it is now safe, and provided there is reasonable expectation that the legal stuff will eventually be sorted out and I'll get my coins back, then I can live with a delay.

What I would like to hear from liquidators/mt.gox is that that expectation is reasonable.  Have Mt.Gox got our money?  How much of our money have they got and how much has been lost?  It's still not clear to me what percentage of my coins are being held by a trustworthy participant.  (Yeah, yeah, I know -- "0" is the answer).

[dancingnancy]

What I would like to hear from liquidators/mt.gox is that that expectation is reasonable.  Have Mt.Gox got our money?  How much of our money have they got and how much has been lost?  It's still not clear to me what percentage of my coins are being held by a trustworthy participant.  (Yeah, yeah, I know -- "0" is the answer).

Seems like it has been around 8 months since this all originally went down.  Don't be so demanding.. 

:/

[repentance]

I'm not happy that my money is not under my control; but provided it is now safe, and provided there is reasonable expectation that the legal stuff will eventually be sorted out and I'll get my coins back, then I can live with a delay.

What I would like to hear from liquidators/mt.gox is that that expectation is reasonable.  Have Mt.Gox got our money?  How much of our money have they got and how much has been lost?  It's still not clear to me what percentage of my coins are being held by a trustworthy participant.  (Yeah, yeah, I know -- "0" is the answer).

The liquidator estimated that the combined value of BTC and USD in the Bitcoinica MtGox account/s was $500,000 based on the information with which he'd been provided and he was waiting for MtGox to confirm that - but that estimate was based on BTC being worth USD 11.

There was $85,181 in Bitcoinica's bank accounts and there should be no impediment to the liquidator obtaining control over those funds.

According to the first report, the value of Bitcoin claims was roughly five times that of USD claims.  At today's rates, the 65,057 BTC claimed are now worth almost $2 million, compared to the $765,000 they were worth in November.

One potentially problematic issue is that although 40,000 BTC were stolen in the MtGox intrusion, only 20,000 BTC were returned.  Although more USD was returned than was stolen ($60,000 more), movements in Bitcoin price since then mean those missing Bitcoins now have a value of ~USD 600,000.

Obviously, it matters a lot whether the majority of remaining Bitcoinica funds held on MtGox are held as BTC or USD - and that information is currently unavailable.

As pointed out by MPOE-PR, MtGox could actually refuse to acknowledge the authority of the NZ liquidator and choose instead to acknowledge the authority of the California court if the Cartmell plaintiffs prevail and seek domestication in Japan of the California court's order (which you can almost guarantee will happen if MtGox still holds Bitcoinica's funds when the California action is decided).

[realnowhereman]

The liquidator estimated that the combined value of BTC and USD in the Bitcoinica MtGox account/s was $500,000 based on the information with which he'd been provided and he was waiting for MtGox to confirm that - but that estimate was based on BTC being worth USD 11.

There was $85,181 in Bitcoinica's bank accounts and there should be no impediment to the liquidator obtaining control over those funds.

According to the first report, the value of Bitcoin claims was roughly five times that of USD claims.  At today's rates, the 65,057 BTC claimed are now worth almost $2 million, compared to the $765,000 they were worth in November.

One potentially problematic issue is that although 40,000 BTC were stolen in the MtGox intrusion, only 20,000 BTC were returned.  Although more USD was returned than was stolen ($60,000 more), movements in Bitcoin price since then mean those missing Bitcoins now have a value of ~USD 600,000.

Obviously, it matters a lot whether the majority of remaining Bitcoinica funds held on MtGox are held as BTC or USD - and that information is currently unavailable.

As pointed out by MPOE-PR, MtGox could actually refuse to acknowledge the authority of the NZ liquidator and choose instead to acknowledge the authority of the California court if the Cartmell plaintiffs prevail and seek domestication in Japan of the California court's order (which you can almost guarantee will happen if MtGox still holds Bitcoinica's funds when the California action is decided).

Thank you for the extremely clear explanation.  You are a scholar and a gentleman.

GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Let me back-of-the-envelope out loud then using your figures.  Current holdings are:

Code:

Claimed - stolen + returned BTC = 65027 BTC - 40000BTC + 20000 BTC = 45027 BTC
Claimed - stolen + returned USD = 765000/5 USD + (returned-stolen) =  153000 + 60000 = 213000 USD

Total holdings in USD today = (BTC@28.5) 1,283,269.5 + 213000 = 1,496,269.5
Total claims in USD today = (BTC@28.5) 1,853,269.5 + 153000 = 2,006,269.5
Deficit = 2,006,269.5 - 1,496,269.5 = 510,000 USD
Estimated return if funds were cleared today = 74.5796%

Double GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

I don't suppose there is any way to persuade the liquidators to use the 60,000 USD that they do control to buy BTC to prevent any further losses from exchange rate changes?

[naima53]

The liquidator estimated that the combined value of BTC and USD in the Bitcoinica MtGox account/s was $500,000 based on the information with which he'd been provided and he was waiting for MtGox to confirm that - but that estimate was based on BTC being worth USD 11.

There was $85,181 in Bitcoinica's bank accounts and there should be no impediment to the liquidator obtaining control over those funds.

According to the first report, the value of Bitcoin claims was roughly five times that of USD claims.  At today's rates, the 65,057 BTC claimed are now worth almost $2 million, compared to the $765,000 they were worth in November.

One potentially problematic issue is that although 40,000 BTC were stolen in the MtGox intrusion, only 20,000 BTC were returned.  Although more USD was returned than was stolen ($60,000 more), movements in Bitcoin price since then mean those missing Bitcoins now have a value of ~USD 600,000.

Obviously, it matters a lot whether the majority of remaining Bitcoinica funds held on MtGox are held as BTC or USD - and that information is currently unavailable.

As pointed out by MPOE-PR, MtGox could actually refuse to acknowledge the authority of the NZ liquidator and choose instead to acknowledge the authority of the California court if the Cartmell plaintiffs prevail and seek domestication in Japan of the California court's order (which you can almost guarantee will happen if MtGox still holds Bitcoinica's funds when the California action is decided).

Thank you for the extremely clear explanation.  You are a scholar and a gentleman.

GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Let me back-of-the-envelope out loud then using your figures.  Current holdings are:

Code:

Claimed - stolen + returned BTC = 65027 BTC - 40000BTC + 20000 BTC = 45027 BTC
Claimed - stolen + returned USD = 765000/5 USD + (returned-stolen) =  153000 + 60000 = 213000 USD

Total holdings in USD today = (BTC@28.5) 1,283,269.5 + 213000 = 1,496,269.5
Total claims in USD today = (BTC@28.5) 1,853,269.5 + 153000 = 2,006,269.5
Deficit = 2,006,269.5 - 1,496,269.5 = 510,000 USD
Estimated return if funds were cleared today = 74.5796%

Double GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

I don't suppose there is any way to persuade the liquidators to use the 60,000 USD that they do control to buy BTC to prevent any further losses from exchange rate changes?

I think it's very important question for the authorities (for world government). They will not allow that would be the first lawsuit to bitcoin was a "failure." They will spend $ 1M, $ 2M, $ 10M, but the price bitcoin grow and the court will successfully resolved in favor of the creditors (claimants) on the price level is above 50.
It's not as easy as you think. IMHO  What would have been good news. And apparently there was another article in forbes I do not worry about it. But I want that to rush things (maybe I'm wrong).
[stop sarcasm]

[nrd525]

Can the original owners decide that they have a surplus and stop the liquidation?  Or is it too late for that?

[Vod]

One potentially problematic issue is that although 40,000 BTC were stolen in the MtGox intrusion, only 20,000 BTC were returned.  Although more USD was returned than was stolen ($60,000 more), movements in Bitcoin price since then mean those missing Bitcoins now have a value of ~USD 600,000.

You know that ZhouTong is reading this and hoping daily that no one gets smart and comes after him for the other 20k btc.  It's worth $600k now.

[bitcoinBull]

One potentially problematic issue is that although 40,000 BTC were stolen in the MtGox intrusion, only 20,000 BTC were returned.  Although more USD was returned than was stolen ($60,000 more), movements in Bitcoin price since then mean those missing Bitcoins now have a value of ~USD 600,000.

You know that ZhouTong is reading this and hoping daily that no one gets smart and comes after him for the other 20k btc.  It's worth $600k now.

Yeah, pretty sure he's responsible. He did it the moment he found out that the source code was leaked (pissed him off, plus gave him plausible deniability).

I don't think he's worried though. Now, if someone goes after Trendon Shavers (and then Sam Theofanopoulos aka HaskKing), then he would start worrying.

BTW, has anyone contacted MtGox about their stance on the bitcoinica funds?

[dancingnancy]

One potentially problematic issue is that although 40,000 BTC were stolen in the MtGox intrusion, only 20,000 BTC were returned.  Although more USD was returned than was stolen ($60,000 more), movements in Bitcoin price since then mean those missing Bitcoins now have a value of ~USD 600,000.

You know that ZhouTong is reading this and hoping daily that no one gets smart and comes after him for the other 20k btc.  It's worth $600k now.

Yeah, pretty sure he's responsible. He did it the moment he found out that the source code was leaked (pissed him off, plus gave him plausible deniability).

I don't think he's worried though. Now, if someone goes after Trendon Shavers (and then Sam Theofanopoulos aka HaskKing), then he would start worrying.

BTW, has anyone contacted MtGox about their stance on the bitcoinica funds?

No, although repentance above suggested going on IRC.. which I never do - not that he/they would likely comment anyway.  Much easier to sit on all our coins.

[repentance]

The liquidator should be informed about the new deal between CoinLab and MtGox. 

Both Tihan and Roger Ver are investors in CoinLab and if Bitcoinica's MtGox account is transferred to CoinLab, the funds will be in the US and therefore it will be very easy for the Cartmell plaintiffs to pursue those funds should they prevail in the California lawsuit.

Zhou's role in the downfall of Bitcoinica will probably never be fully examined.  He's been protected throughout this whole clusterfuck to a ridiculous extent when his actions after the Intersango guys joined Bitcoinica deserve intense scrutiny.  Given strong indications for him being involved in the MtGox intrusion, it's reasonable to examine whether he was connected in any way to the Rackspace intrusion too.  It's rather galling that he's sitting on $70,000 worth of NameTerrific shares while average Bitcoinica users may still end up receiving no refund and he's not even named as one of the defendants in the Cartmell lawsuit despite the evidence linking him to the MtGox intrusion. 

[phantomcircuit]

The liquidator should be informed about the new deal between CoinLab and MtGox. 

Both Tihan and Roger Ver are investors in CoinLab and if Bitcoinica's MtGox account is transferred to CoinLab, the funds will be in the US and therefore it will be very easy for the Cartmell plaintiffs to pursue those funds should they prevail in the California lawsuit.

It is my understanding (this still needs to be verified with MtGox) that only accounts held by US or Canadian persons (including corporations and other legal entities) will be transfered to ConLab .. er I mean CoinLab.

To the best of my knowledge this would not include any of the accounts related to Bitcoinica LP (In Liquidation).

[repentance]

To the best of my knowledge this would not include any of the accounts related to Bitcoinica LP (In Liquidation).

I remember a discussion on here about how Zhou was able to open a MtGox account given that he was under 18 and I'm pretty sure his response was that it was because it was a business account.  When Bitcoinica first started, it was operated under the umbrella of Xway Labs, which was set up in Delaware.  Was a new MtGox account created for Bitcoinica when Bitcoinica LP was formed or appropriate paperwork provided to MtGox to establish that Bitcoinica was no longer "located" in the US?

[dancingnancy]

To the best of my knowledge this would not include any of the accounts related to Bitcoinica LP (In Liquidation).

I remember a discussion on here about how Zhou was able to open a MtGox account given that he was under 18

Forgot about all that..

[Koekiemonster]

I emailed them 4 days ago for an update but no response yet.

[dancingnancy]

I emailed them 4 days ago for an update but no response yet.

I would be happy with an update. thinking about having my lawyer send them a letter :/

Send it to Mt. Gox?  Doesn't sound like you will get anywhere with the liquidators.  I would be interested to hear any response from Gox on this matter.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Let me see if I have this correct. The liquidated funds are now worth more now than when they were first stored at Mt. Gox, and the the owner of Mt. Gox is a member of TBF.

The funds were stored at Mt. Gox in good faith, yet...

From this day forward, I demand from Mt. Gox prove that these funds have not been touched.

Is there any way an audit can be done in regard to this situation? I'm not versed in how this can be accomplished, but I'm sure others here have an idea.

The way I'm looking at it is that if all the funds were released today, everybody would get back about what they lost, and maybe more.

We have no proof that Mt. Gox is not using said funds, so until that proof is given, I'm going on record and stating that they are floating (or whatever the proper term is) the funds for their everyday operation.

Please forgive me, all and MG, for I don't have the red-ass toward them, but I am sticking it up their ass on this one issue alone.

~Bruno K~

[disclaimer201]

Since hardly anyone has the ability to sue Gox, the only thing left to do is to write Gox and attack their reputation. The issue of them holding our funds hostage doesn't seem to really bother anyone enough to make a fuzz about it. Perhaps we should start asking a little louder?

[dancingnancy]

We have no proof that Mt. Gox is not using said funds, so until that proof is given, I'm going on record and stating that they are floating (or whatever the proper term is) the funds for their everyday operation.



~Bruno K~

Umm.. yeah - that is most likely exactly what they are doing.  Can't say a god damned word about it either publicly.  Loaning out BTC is a pretty lucrative business right now.

[Koekiemonster]

Still no reply, sent out another e-mail yesterday.

Anyone else had any contact?

[dancingnancy]

Still no reply, sent out another e-mail yesterday.

Anyone else had any contact?

With who?

[Koekiemonster]

Still no reply, sent out another e-mail yesterday.

Anyone else had any contact?

With who?

The liquidator: Taslim Bhamji.

[dancingnancy]

Still no reply, sent out another e-mail yesterday.

Anyone else had any contact?

With who?

The liquidator: Taslim Bhamji.

The last time we heard from them was a few weeks ago.  Same story.  Gox won't talk to them.  I would spend your time trying to contact Mt Gox (or CEO).  Doesn't sound like you will get anywhere though.  They are too busy upgrading servers or something.

[Koekiemonster]

Still no reply, sent out another e-mail yesterday.

Anyone else had any contact?

With who?

The liquidator: Taslim Bhamji.

The last time we heard from them was a few weeks ago.  Same story.  Gox won't talk to them.  I would spend your time trying to contact Mt Gox (or CEO).  Doesn't sound like you will get anywhere though.  They are too busy upgrading servers or something.

Despite the fact the liquidator is probably waiting for Gox , it doesn't justify the lack of communication with the 'investors'. If they aren't able to communicate with their clients I don't have much faith they will get our money anytime soon and I would prefer to have another (capable) liquidator on this case.

[S3052]

Still no reply, sent out another e-mail yesterday.

Anyone else had any contact?

With who?

The liquidator: Taslim Bhamji.

The last time we heard from them was a few weeks ago.  Same story.  Gox won't talk to them.  I would spend your time trying to contact Mt Gox (or CEO).  Doesn't sound like you will get anywhere though.  They are too busy upgrading servers or something.

Despite the fact the liquidator is probably waiting for Gox , it doesn't justify the lack of communication with the 'investors'. If they aren't able to communicate with their clients I don't have much faith they will get our money anytime soon and I would prefer to have another (capable) liquidator on this case.

+1

[flower1024]

Hello @all,

as far as i know the bitcoinica funds held by MtGox are from an US user (a delaware company).
i have a few questions about that:

 - will the bitcoinica funds (btc and usd?) moved to coinbase?
 - what are coinbase' plans with this money?
 - will they give the funds to our liquidator?
 - what about the law suite in america? will we see any funds from that - or will all of the funds just go to suitors?
 - who pays all the lawyers? (i am willing to pay my liquidator, but not an anonymous lawyer in US - as i really have NOTHING to do with them)
 - if the funds will stay at mtgox (or partly stay there): what are mtgox plans?

i would love to see some statements from Taslim, Roger Ver, Coinbase and MtGox.

regards

[Mushoz]

Has anyone contacted Mark Karpeles AKA "MagicalTux" directly and asked for a statement?

[dancingnancy]

Read this thread.. starts around the second page.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=157360.0

He basically says nothing at all and I know he has looked at this thread.  Just more bullshit.  They are happy to sit on the coins and from what the liquidator has stated many times previous to this, Mt. Gox isn't willing to give them the information they need to move forward.

Until I hear differently, I am going to assume that the liquidator isn't bullshitting us.  I can't think of a reason why the liquidator would want to.  There is a reason for Mt. Gox to though.  Think about what all our coins are worth right now?  Who knows how they are using the coins.

I believe, if Mt. Gox wasn't using these coins, this situation probably would have resolved itself already.  If Mt. Gox isn't "using" these coins currently, I would like to see them provide a BTC address as to where all our coins are, or if they are segregated.  Of course, Mt. Gox isn't willing to do shit.  Hopefully this catches up with them.  After I get my coins back, if I ever do, I can promise I will never do another business transaction again with them if they don't resolve this shit soon.  I am sure others feel the same way. 

[disclaimer201]

There really should be more threads about this in more prominent sections of bitcointalk. Fucking thieves.

[dancingnancy]

There really should be more threads about this in more prominent section of bitcointalk. Fucking thieves.

Yeah, no doubt.  This guy sits on the Bitcoin foundation, is happy to represent Bitcoin, but can't be bothered to give us our money back (BTC + USD, or whomever has our USD).  It's getting to the point where I am ready to start a donation for one of us to fly out to Japan for a personal meeting with this douche to move this along.  I got 5 on it..

[trentreznor321]

To All Investors
 
We have received a number of emails from investors recently requesting a progress update on the liquidation.
 
We have received further information from the limited partners which we are currently assessing and we continue to correspond with MT Gox with a view to having the account information released to us.  At this point, MT Gox continues to withhold the information and account access.  We are hopeful that we will not need to issue legal proceedings as this will simply result in further depletion of investor funds.
 
We understand from press releases that MT Gox has entered into an agreement with CoinLab for bitcoin trading in North America.  We have not taken legal advice on this issue, however we do not believe that this arrangement affects the liquidation process. 
 
We have not yet determined the method for the distribution to creditors/investors, as we do not yet know the composition of the frozen accounts (ie the number of bitcoins held and balance of USD funds).  However, it is likely that any distribution will be made in USD.  Once we have the account information, we will notify investors of the process for which the Liquidators intend on distributing funds.  If there are insufficient funds to make payment in full to each investor, then distribution will be made on a pro-rata basis (ie funds are distributed in proportion to each investors claim).
 
We will keep investors abreast with further updates as and when they occur.
 
Kind Regards
Taslim Bhamji
Senior Insolvency Administrator

[realnowhereman]

We have not yet determined the method for the distribution to creditors/investors, as we do not yet know the composition of the frozen accounts (ie the number of bitcoins held and balance of USD funds).  However, it is likely that any distribution will be made in USD.

Personally I'd rather the BTC; but I really hope that the above doesn't mean they're considering paying us in USD at the time of the freeze.

(The above makes it sound like they don't really understand bitcoin).

[labestiol]

However, it is likely that any distribution will be made in USD.  

I guess now I don't feel that bad that MtGox is delaying the process.
As it is likely that this will result in more losses for us, what can we do ? I'm anything but a lawyer, but I don't see on what basis they prefer USD to BTC, this being a liquidation in NZ (except convenience I guess).

Thoughts ?

but I really hope that the above doesn't mean they're considering paying us in USD at the time of the freeze.

No, I don't see them selling BTC at spot price, giving us the equivalent at 5$, and keeping the change. However, any conversion will cost us (well, except if BTC goes down between their sale and the time we can buy some back, but I guess we agree it's not the most likely possibility)

[Transisto]

However, it is likely that any distribution will be made in USD.

I would be willing to bet a lot that 90% of Bitcoinica position were BTC LONG,
This by itself should have meant that the majority of USD retrieved from zhou should have been placed safely back into BTC.

That the liquidator prefer to deal with the 95%+ of the assets based on value is the complete opposite of what creditors want.

What can we do against this ?

[dancingnancy]

I better get all my BTC back...

I think we should all contact the liquidator and tell them they need to negotiate our btc back and distribute the cash, otherwise.  There is no way I am taking taxes on liquidating BTC.

[2GOOD]

I better get all my BTC back...

I think we should all contact the liquidator and tell them they need to negotiate our btc back and distribute the cash, otherwise.  There is no way I am taking taxes on liquidating BTC.

+1

[dancingnancy]

I have already mailed Taslim.  I would hope that others are doing the same.

[Mushoz]

I have already mailed Taslim.  I would hope that others are doing the same.

Mailed him as well, I urge everyone to do the same.

[Koekiemonster]

I have already mailed Taslim.  I would hope that others are doing the same.

Mailed him as well, I urge everyone to do the same.

I did the same thing.

[naima53]

I have already mailed Taslim.  I would hope that others are doing the same.

Mailed him as well, I urge everyone to do the same.

I did the same thing.

Sorry, my English is bad. Could you write a sample? What should I send Taslim?

[Mushoz]

I have already mailed Taslim.  I would hope that others are doing the same.

Mailed him as well, I urge everyone to do the same.

I did the same thing.

Sorry, my English is bad. Could you write a sample? What should I send Taslim?

I sent him this:

Dear Taslim Bhamji,

Bitcoinica owes me BTC, so I prefer to be paid in BTC.

Yours sincerely,

Xxxx Yyyyyyyy

[dancingnancy]

Has anyone heard from the liquidators since E-Mailing them?  I haven't heard anything.

[dancingnancy]

..... Still have heard nothing from them ......

[Koekiemonster]

..... Still have heard nothing from them ......

I don't think they are going to e-mail each and everyone of us. Just wait until the next update.

[disclaimer201]

Emailing the liquidators isn't going to help. We need to email MtGox, who are stalling the process and working with our coins/money, don't you GET that?

[dancingnancy]

Emailing the liquidators isn't going to help. We need to email MtGox, who are stalling the process and working with our coins/money, don't you GET that?

I get that.  But if you take a look in other threads @MagicalTux just denies that he is the problem.  Or he hides behind the cloak of this privacy policy, still not sure what that means since they have my coins and (maybe) my open position cash and the other cash I had in my account, as well.  Not sure what else to do. 

[naima53]

Emailing the liquidators isn't going to help. We need to email MtGox, who are stalling the process and working with our coins/money, don't you GET that?

I get that.  But if you take a look in other threads @MagicalTux just denies that he is the problem.  Or he hides behind the cloak of this privacy policy, still not sure what that means since they have my coins and (maybe) my open position cash and the other cash I had in my account, as well.  Not sure what else to do.  

We have to create a new thread. Publicly to demand that the GOX explanation.
I agree that a liquidator has sold all the coins and paid the creditors that have a percentage (as fiat). It is a large amount for the price $ 200 is better than nothing.

[Koekiemonster]

I e-mailed Taslim Bhamji just now:

Dear Taslim Bhamji,

Do you have any updates regarding this case? There is hardly any communication from your side and it feels like there's not much you are doing.
Could you please reply to page 8 of this document:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/124xnH4LEk99ccesIsu1FvaaZF9PVUCrbfTeaCuNVZYk/edit

Kind regards,

[Koekiemonster]

Again no reply. This really is absurd. Some other liquidator should be on this case. This one doesn't seem qualified/motivated enough to handle this. I sent them another mail just now. I advise everyone to do the same.

[dancingnancy]

Its been a while, for sure.  Of course, no one wants to take any responsibility.  Much easier just to let Mt. Gox sit on the coins. 

[El Cabron]

Its been a while, for sure.  Of course, no one wants to take any responsibility.  Much easier just to let Mt. Gox sit on the coins. 

They seem more than okay with this. However sooner or later this delay will only cause us to get more lawyers involved.

[Koekiemonster]

Anyone had any contact with the liquidator recently?

[repentance]

Anyone had any contact with the liquidator recently?

The liquidator's second report is due soon.

It might be a very good idea to let the liquidator know that MtGox is being sued for 75 million dollars.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/139160091/Coinlab-v-Mt-Gox

[dancingnancy]

Anyone had any contact with the liquidator recently?

The liquidator's second report is due soon.

It might be a very good idea to let the liquidator know that MtGox is being sued for 75 million dollars.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/139160091/Coinlab-v-Mt-Gox

Do we get our coins before CoinLab get any cash, if it comes down to it?

[Koekiemonster]

Anyone had any contact with the liquidator recently?

The liquidator's second report is due soon.

It might be a very good idea to let the liquidator know that MtGox is being sued for 75 million dollars.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/139160091/Coinlab-v-Mt-Gox

How do you know their second report is due soon?

[bitclown]

Anyone had any contact with the liquidator recently?

The liquidator's second report is due soon.

It might be a very good idea to let the liquidator know that MtGox is being sued for 75 million dollars.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/139160091/Coinlab-v-Mt-Gox

How do you know their second report is due soon?

He probably read the first report:

Our next statutory report with further information for creditors will be available in six months.

[epetroel]

It might be a very good idea to let the liquidator know that MtGox is being sued for 75 million dollars.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/139160091/Coinlab-v-Mt-Gox

Others probably did already, but just in case nobody did, I just e-mailed Taslim to let him know.

[Koekiemonster]

Anyone had any contact with the liquidator recently?

The liquidator's second report is due soon.

It might be a very good idea to let the liquidator know that MtGox is being sued for 75 million dollars.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/139160091/Coinlab-v-Mt-Gox

How do you know their second report is due soon?

He probably read the first report:

Our next statutory report with further information for creditors will be available in six months.

27th of may. What do we do if nothing happens?

[dancingnancy]

Anyone had any contact with the liquidator recently?

The liquidator's second report is due soon.

It might be a very good idea to let the liquidator know that MtGox is being sued for 75 million dollars.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/139160091/Coinlab-v-Mt-Gox

How do you know their second report is due soon?

He probably read the first report:

Our next statutory report with further information for creditors will be available in six months.

27th of may. What do we do if nothing happens?

Probably keep complaining to each other about how long this has already taken.

[naima53]

Maybe liquidator fake? I wrote to him several times and received no response. Who ever knows with any certainty whether there is a real lawsuit (it is real?) *? Maybe somebody lives in New Zealand, and went there in person with their feet?

[naima53]

no response 

[dancingnancy]

The liquidator is supposed to come out with the next report in 2 days I believe? 

[MelMan2002]

The liquidator is supposed to come out with the next report in 2 days I believe? 

I hope this is true. I do not doubt you, but where is your source for this?

Thanks.

Scroll up a few posts - it comes from his first report.

[epetroel]

So it's the 28th today.  Has anyone seen an updated report?

[Koekiemonster]

So it's the 28th today.  Has anyone seen an updated report?

Nope, I'm planning on calling them, but different time zones are difficult. Has anyone called them in the recent months?

[dancingnancy]

Never tried calling them.

[dancingnancy]

derp.....

[MelMan2002]

Is it time to panic?

[epetroel]

Is it time to panic?

It's always a good time to panic

[Koekiemonster]

Taslim Bhamji doesn't seem to work at PKF Corporate Recovery anymore: http://www.pkfcr.co.nz/our_people
At February 6 he still seemed to work there: http://web.archive.org/web/20130206230128/http://www.pkfcr.co.nz/our_people/professional_staff/taslim_bhamji

I'll try to contact them within an hour. I would suggest any one of you to do this: http://www.pkfcr.co.nz/contact-pkf-corporate-recovery

[epetroel]

Taslim Bhamji doesn't seem to work at PKF Corporate Recovery anymore: http://www.pkfcr.co.nz/our_people
At February 6 he still seemed to work there: http://web.archive.org/web/20130206230128/http://www.pkfcr.co.nz/our_people/professional_staff/taslim_bhamji

I'll try to contact them within an hour. I would suggest any one of you to do this: http://www.pkfcr.co.nz/contact-pkf-corporate-recovery

Good catch.  Sent them an e-mail, will post here if I hear anything back.

[epetroel]

Well, that was fast:

Hi Eric

The new contact is Chris McCullagh. He is currently on leave and will return on Thursday 6 June 2013.

The Liquidators’ second  report will be emailed to creditors this afternoon.

Regards

Anne Swanepoel
Secretary

[Koekiemonster]

Very fast indeed. Hope this changes things.

[2GOOD]

...what funds, if any...

is more like no-thing

[flower1024]

why doesnt mtgox know which account belongs to bitcoinica?

[realnowhereman]

37k for "liquidators fees"?

We are all going to get reamed.

[dancingnancy]

Wow, so just read this piece of shit.  Basically nothing at all has happened..(weird?).  Mt gox continues to be a bitch.  I am now ready to pitch-in whatever money I have to go after them if you all are willing to do this.  The liquidator obviously isn't going to do anything but suck money up. 

[MelMan2002]

So, after burning through $56k of our money nothing has been done.  Gox wants verification that they can't provide so they just pretend to be working so they can collect a paycheck.  This is all so frustrating. 

[naima53]

Well .. I received a second report. If anyone got it, retelling in a nutshell please what does it say? I can not select text and copy into Google translator.

[nrd525]

It is interesting that they value the total claims in US dollars (1.59 million) and the presumed MtGox assets in both bitcoins (64,485) and dollars (134,000).

This probably means they are valuing claims at the existing exchange rate at the point of Bitcoinica's demise.  If so, even if they can only recover half of the bitcoins they are going to have a large surplus.

How are surpluses awarded in liquidation?  Do the limited partners get it?

[nrd525]

A link to the report
http://www.campusactivism.org/server-new/uploads/Liquidators_Second_Report.pdf

[MelMan2002]

It is interesting that they value the total claims in US dollars (1.59 million) and the presumed MtGox assets in both bitcoins (64,485) and dollars (134,000).

This probably means they are valuing claims at the existing exchange rate at the point of Bitcoinica's demise.  If so, even if they can only recover half of the bitcoins they are going to have a large surplus.

How are surpluses awarded in liquidation?  Do the limited partners get it?

How are they going to recover even half? They said they will need to sue Gox. But they have already taken the money we had as "fees".

They probably are just stalling so they can use half of it as "fees".

[nrd525]

Currently the fees have been under 1 percent.

[MelMan2002]

Currently the fees have been under 1 percent.

Then we have a long wait ahead of us...

[dancingnancy]

The thing I do not understand about this still is why Mt. Gox has any say at all about what happens to our coins.  Who originally gave them "control" of these assets (coins + cash)?  Can't this same person take it back and just work with the liquidators to give us our coins back?  It's been too long now and I can't remember all the details anymore.  This is getting super old. 

[naima53]

If a liquidator is appointed the new, does this mean that I have to send proof (GOX codes, transaction numbers) again to the new liquidator?

[nrd525]

It does seem like the MtGox accounts would be controlled by someone.  Unless they are legally prevented from using them...  But even if they were legally prevented from using them, MtGox probably wouldn't know that.  And it'd be strange if someone was legally prevented from helping the liquidation process.  It might be more likely that they are avoiding it because they don't like the mess.

[2GOOD]

Any news past 2 months ?!

[yepreally]

Has anyone heard anything new on this lately?  Would it help to send emails to the liquidator again?

[tbcoin]

Has anyone heard anything new on this lately?  Would it help to send emails to the liquidator again?

August 30

...
Time passes and we still without any news.
 
I would like know what is happening with this case.
 
Thanks in advance
 
Best regards.

....
I emailed to you on 4 June 2013 a copy of the Liquidators’ second report in the liquidation. We only send creditors a liquidation update being the Liquidators report on a 6 monthly basis.
...

[osmosis]

Has anyone talked to mtux and gotten his stance on this?

[dancingnancy]

ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

wtf

[disclaimer201]

ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

wtf

It is okay not all is lost, some people are still trying to sue some of the old bitcoin consultancy people even though they do not have the coins. Mt. Gox does... 

Until people get focused on what we should do as a group nothing will happen.

There needs to be a coordinated attack on Gox. He will not move until someone forces him to. Isn't there anything we can do?

[disclaimer201]

ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

wtf

It is okay not all is lost, some people are still trying to sue some of the old bitcoin consultancy people even though they do not have the coins. Mt. Gox does...  

Until people get focused on what we should do as a group nothing will happen.

There needs to be a coordinated attack on Gox. He will not move until someone forces him to. Isn't there anything we can do?

We can sue Gox. However some people are saying this is a bad idea and it is better to sue Patrick and Amir

Even if it brings a little more attention to him, some people also might want to sign this petition.

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/cryptocurrency-community-remove-mark-karpeles-as-a-figurehead-of-crypto-bitcoin-foundation-and-anything-else-crypto

[dancingnancy]

I'm interested to hear more about options for suing if it gets people to start moving.  I guess it is the only thing to do since no one gives a fucking shit that is involved on the other side of this.  I mean seriously, wtf.

[dancingnancy]

At what price does BTC get to before we start to move on this?  The longer we wait, the worse mt gox looks, who knows what could happen to this company? 

If BTC goes back above 250 I really think we should start to talk more as a group.  This whole  situation is absurd.  It would be worth all users that want to do this to pay a percentage of their future holdings to some lawyer that actually has a fucking plan?  I mean I'm sorry, this liquadators are doing nothing, nor do they mind.  You know mt gox doesnt mind. 

[osmosis]

Im all for it. Have any particular ideas about how we can move forward?

At what price does BTC get to before we start to move on this?  The longer we wait, the worse mt gox looks, who knows what could happen to this company? 

If BTC goes back above 250 I really think we should start to talk more as a group.  This whole  situation is absurd.  It would be worth all users that want to do this to pay a percentage of their future holdings to some lawyer that actually has a fucking plan?  I mean I'm sorry, this liquadators are doing nothing, nor do they mind.  You know mt gox doesnt mind. 

[dancingnancy]

Lets just get a list going of users here.  If we can find a lawyer that will accept money when he gets ours that would be my first vote.  They literally have all my money, plus I am going to school full time.  I am not sure how much I could actually contribute in the beginning, but I could do something.  

I have a professor from school I took business law from that could most likely direct me to someone.  I probably have some of the least amt. of connections though in the professional world.

Anyone should chime in that has more ideas.

[dancingnancy]

we need to start another thread where someone can update a list of all users that want to do this and will keep it up.  from there, we can decide money etc.  perhaps the lawyer(s) will be interested to take a case like this to put their name out in public.  it will hit enough websites if we can throw something at this entire shit crew. 

[dancingnancy]

where wont the thread get moved to?  probably right back to this sub forum?  problem is, not many people visit this one. 

[osmosis]

We could also draft letters to both Gox and the Liquidator, asking for an official response from each of them on what they are waiting for to move forward, as we are blind right now to what the hold up is. We could get these letters posted on the blogs to get some publicity.

[disclaimer201]

It's clear what the hold-up is. The liquidator has no power and Karpeles gives a shit about bitcoinica users. MtGox needs all the funds it can get right now just to keep afloat. Perhaps he would have been bankrupt already if it wasn't for our coins and fiat.

[dancingnancy]

It's clear what the hold-up is. The liquidator has no power and Karpeles gives a shit about bitcoinica users. MtGox needs all the funds it can get right now just to keep afloat. Perhaps he would have been bankrupt already if it wasn't for our coins and fiat.

Yeah, all out open positions were supposed to be liquidated at like $11.00 or something.  I almost forgot all about the "cash" I should still have, if that even is a real thing anymore.  Ugh..

[osmosis]

Yeah, all out open positions were supposed to be liquidated at like $11.00 or something. 

Screw that. I want the coins I deposited. Gox has them.

[ninjarobot]

We could also draft letters to both Gox and the Liquidator, asking for an official response from each of them on what they are waiting for to move forward, as we are blind right now to what the hold up is. We could get these letters posted on the blogs to get some publicity.

I wrote the following to the liquidator on Sept 17:

Hi Anne,

In the second report you alluded to the possibility of legal action against MtGox in order to gain access to the Bitcoinica funds stored there.

1) Has there been any progress in this area? If so, how can the creditors help?

2) Is there a date for when to expect the 3rd report?

3) Does PKFCR have a fiduciary duty towards the Bitcoinica creditors?

4) Is PKFCR aware of the fact that DHS has seized 5M of MtGox's customer deposits and that Coinlab is witholding another 5M of customer deposits? MtGox is a huge counter party risk for Bitcoinica creditors given their current situation.

Bitcoinica is a small company, I was hoping that the liquidation could be a more swift affair in the interest of the creditors.

On Oct 10 I finally got a reply which I can't share here because it comes with a lot of legal boiler plate but instead of answers I got a brief statement that every time they write an email it adds costs to the liquidation, which will affect the distribution to creditors.  (... I wonder how much they will charge for that?)

So you better keep your mouth shut and every 6 month you can expect another scrap of information in the shape of a liquidator report detailing 0 progress. Oh and another 50.000 USD please for our service. Suffice it to say that the Bitcoinica debacle has been a real education for me. Faith in humanity has dropped a few notches.

[dancingnancy]

Yeah, all out open positions were supposed to be liquidated at like $11.00 or something.

Screw that. I want the coins I deposited. Gox has them.

No, I meant additional cash from open positions using leverage.  If you remember, that was in addition to the coins you actually transferred in yourself.  There was a spot to mark this for the liquidators.  If you failed to do so, I would contact them.

[dancingnancy]

We could also draft letters to both Gox and the Liquidator, asking for an official response from each of them on what they are waiting for to move forward, as we are blind right now to what the hold up is. We could get these letters posted on the blogs to get some publicity.

I wrote the following to the liquidator on Sept 17:

Hi Anne,

In the second report you alluded to the possibility of legal action against MtGox in order to gain access to the Bitcoinica funds stored there.

1) Has there been any progress in this area? If so, how can the creditors help?

2) Is there a date for when to expect the 3rd report?

3) Does PKFCR have a fiduciary duty towards the Bitcoinica creditors?

4) Is PKFCR aware of the fact that DHS has seized 5M of MtGox's customer deposits and that Coinlab is witholding another 5M of customer deposits? MtGox is a huge counter party risk for Bitcoinica creditors given their current situation.

Bitcoinica is a small company, I was hoping that the liquidation could be a more swift affair in the interest of the creditors.

On Oct 10 I finally got a reply which I can't share here because it comes with a lot of legal boiler plate but instead of answers I got a brief statement that every time they write an email it adds costs to the liquidation, which will affect the distribution to creditors.  (... I wonder how much they will charge for that?)

So you better keep your mouth shut and every 6 month you can expect another scrap of information in the shape of a liquidator report detailing 0 progress. Oh and another 50.000 USD please for our service. Suffice it to say that the Bitcoinica debacle has been a real education for me. Faith in humanity has dropped a few notches.

Agreed.  That's why I think if PC and Ver can reach an agreement soon it would all be in our best interests.  Not to mention Mt Cox holding our coins. 

Otherwise, I am sure these people would face much more of a shit storm if the general public finds out about how this has been handled (in the form of further litigation) - some of these people are "influential" in the BTC community.  Why would anyone trust anything to someone in the past that has acted not in the best interest of the creditors involved? 

All I know, and I don't know much, is that Amir seems to be forthright with what he has been saying.  I mean.. then you get pictures of letters sent by random people containing fortune cookies..derp..what is going on here?  jesus

[Koekiemonster]

I PM'D Roger Ver this week and he told me he heard the liquidator has gotten hold of the passwords to the Gox accounts, so hopefully we will hear about the progress soon. The report is due soon anyway.

[nrd525]

I wonder if they'll crash the market when they sell the BTC? 

[2GOOD]

I wonder if they'll crash the market when they sell the BTC? 

i really hope they dont sell my coins and give me $11 each for them :/

That would be a pity 

[nrd525]

I had been thinking they'd liquidate at market value and give us the surplus from the increase in BTC value.  Now I'm thinking the company owners will get the surplus.   If so, they're going to make a killing.

Does anyone know common wealth law on this?

[rdponticelli]

I wonder if they'll crash the market when they sell the BTC? 

i really hope they dont sell my coins and give me $11 each for them :/

That would be a pity shameless robbery

FTFY

But sadly that's a usual kind of robbery for the legacy "justice" system...

[poi]

Got this 4th Dec after inquiring

The Liquidators report on the progress of the liquidation will be emailed to creditors shortly.
 
Regards
Anne Swanepoel
Secretary
Description: C:\Users\annes\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Signatures\Corporate-PKF-Email-Small.jpg
PKF Corporate Recovery & Insolvency (Auckland) Limited
Level 3, 48 Courthouse Lane | PO Box 3678, Auckland 1140, New Zealand
anne.swanepoel@pkfcr.co.nz
www.pkfcr.co.nz
P:
+64 9 302 0521
F:
+64 9 302 0536
DDI:
+64 9 306 7423

[Koekiemonster]

Got this 4th Dec after inquiring

The Liquidators report on the progress of the liquidation will be emailed to creditors shortly.
 
Regards
Anne Swanepoel
Secretary
Description: C:\Users\annes\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Signatures\Corporate-PKF-Email-Small.jpg
PKF Corporate Recovery & Insolvency (Auckland) Limited
Level 3, 48 Courthouse Lane | PO Box 3678, Auckland 1140, New Zealand
anne.swanepoel@pkfcr.co.nz
www.pkfcr.co.nz
P:
+64 9 302 0521
F:
+64 9 302 0536
DDI:
+64 9 306 7423

They have a different definition of "shortly" than I have. Anyone contacted them past two weeks?

[tbcoin]

I have good feelings about this delay, look like they are doing something

[disclaimer201]

I have good feelings about this delay, look like they are doing something

yes, it seems something is going on, im not exactly sure what, however im okay for them to hold out for good news, like mark giving us back our coins. that would be cool.

After all this time, do you think good things can happen in this world?!

[dancingnancy]

I have good feelings about this delay, look like they are doing something

yes, it seems something is going on, im not exactly sure what, however im okay for them to hold out for good news, like mark giving us back our coins. that would be cool.

After all this time, do you think good things can happen in this world?!

Roger ver has been keeping up on this and maybe is effort is about to pay off.

This would make for an excellent christmas present.

[dancingnancy]

Why is there a chance we don't get our coins and our cash back?  We should be made whole minus liquidator fees?

[nrd525]

Why is there a chance we don't get our coins and our cash back?  We should be made whole minus liquidator fees?

I think there is a chance we'd get the value in US dollars of the bitcoins at the time of liquidation.  And that there will be a very large surplus amount of money which will go to the owners of the firm.  And that the bitcoinica liquidation could be treated as the type of liquidation where the number of assets is greater than the liabilities.

Think about what would happen if bitcoins went down to zero.  It makes sense for a liquidator to value a highly variable asset at the value at the point of liquidation.  On the other hand, if the liquidator doesn't ownership of the assets until much later - it could make sense to value them at the point of acquisition.

Of course this is all speculation.  We need to some solid kiwi (New Zealand) legal advice.

[ninjarobot]

Why is there a chance we don't get our coins and our cash back?  We should be made whole minus liquidator fees?

I think there is a chance we'd get the value in US dollars of the bitcoins at the time of liquidation.  And that there will be a very large surplus amount of money which will go to the owners of the firm.  And that the bitcoinica liquidation could be treated as the type of liquidation where the number of assets is greater than the liabilities.

Think about what would happen if bitcoins went down to zero.  It makes sense for a liquidator to value a highly variable asset at the value at the point of liquidation.  On the other hand, if the liquidator doesn't ownership of the assets until much later - it could make sense to value them at the point of acquisition.

Of course this is all speculation.  We need to some solid kiwi (New Zealand) legal advice.

Nice insolvency that would be. The people that f*cked up would be richly rewarded for their mistakes at the expense of all depositors.

Bitcoinica liability needs to be defined as BTC based.

The 3rd Liquidator report should be out any day now. So far I've been very disappointed in the performance of the liquidator. So I'm not very hopeful.

[dancingnancy]

Some of us had Cash, Open positions, and Bitcoins that were ours, that we transferred into Bitcoinica, not coins that we acquired from Bitcoinica.  If they sell my coins I transferred into Bitcoinica, I am going to be so super pissed..

[disclaimer201]

Some of us had Cash, Open positions, and Bitcoins that were ours, that we transferred into Bitcoinica, not coins that we acquired from Bitcoinica.  If they sell my coins I transferred into Bitcoinica, I am going to be so super pissed..

We all would be, and I'm afraid we will be. Thing is, most bitcoins were robbed. They will only be able to sell a small fraction of (formerly) our bitcoins we sent to the exchange. At this point, I don't fucking care. The bitmarket.eu guys decided to pay back some % of their robbed customers in BTC, but taking the market value of the lost coins on the day they were hacked (I think). So if you had 1 Bitcoin then, and say it was worth 10 bucks at the time (more like 5 bucks or less when bitcoinica was hacked? don't remember) you would get the equivalent of 10 bucks of today's prices sent to you in BTC) so about 0.01444 BTC of today's value (on btc-e, like right now). All of this fun minus the costs for the liquidators, and heck maybe Mark would charge money for "securing" the coins in the meantime (and fight illiquidity issues of MtGox). I wouldn't be surprised.

All things considered, I don't think I will realistically see even half a bitcoin of my former balance of 50 BTC. Not going to get excited much over that.

[disclaimer201]

Some of us had Cash, Open positions, and Bitcoins that were ours, that we transferred into Bitcoinica, not coins that we acquired from Bitcoinica.  If they sell my coins I transferred into Bitcoinica, I am going to be so super pissed..

We all would be, and I'm afraid we will be. Thing is, most bitcoins were robbed. They will only be able to sell a small fraction of (formerly) our bitcoins we sent to the exchange. At this point, I don't fucking care. The bitmarket.eu guys decided to pay back some % of their robbed customers in BTC, but taking the market value of the lost coins on the day they were hacked (I think). So if you had 1 Bitcoin then, and say it was worth 10 bucks at the time (more like 5 bucks or less when bitcoinica was hacked? don't remember) you would get the equivalent of 10 bucks of today's prices sent to you in BTC) so about 0.01444 BTC of today's value (on btc-e, like right now). All of this fun minus the costs for the liquidators, and heck maybe Mark would charge money for "securing" the coins in the meantime (and fight illiquidity issues of MtGox). I wouldn't be surprised.

All things considered, I don't think I will realistically see even half a bitcoin of my former balance of 50 BTC. Not going to get excited much over that.

If I could get 30% of my BTC back, I would love that so much more than $11 per coin...

I'm afraid that's totally off the table. Like I said, it's hardly worth wasting a thought on it. In fact, if anything comes back, everyone will be mad. It will not be a happy moment. So, I'm thinking we should do ourselves a favor and not literally get sick over this "great" news that something, maybe, could come out of this.

[ninjarobot]

If depositors are reimbursed for pennies on the dollar (11 USD is only 1.5% of the current BTC USD value) while the rest (98.5%) goes to the 'owners' I would be really pissed considering that these people are responsible for this mess including:

• Operating as a Limited Partnership before that partnership was fully formed (Unsigned docs)
• No backups of customer account data, No segregated accounts, No 2 factor on accounts (MtGox)
• Willfully leaked code including passwords to customer funds.
• Violating their own TOS
• Allowing a minor that was not an employee full access to funds and customer AML documentation (Zhou)
• No meaningful attempt to file reports for theft, backup recovery or fund recovery
• Never covering original thefts while lying to customers ('The thief stole from us, not you' & 'Previous thefts were covered by Tihan/investor') in order to attract new capital.
• etc.

I really hope the Liquidator will think this through and take steps that actually benefit the claimants. After all these are their funds that they trusted to Bitcoinica. Liquidating BTC @11 USD is almost legalized theft.

Why is 30% of BTC off the table? What do you know that I don't?

I also don't see why this should be the case. The last 'official' number we got before Bitcoinica went into Liquidation was a 30% haircut. (Can't find Amir's thread but it is also echoed in this article: http://bitcoinmagazine.com/1805/bitcoinica-stolen-from-again/). In addition not every depositor filed a claim. So let's not give up that easily.

Now that the Liquidator has access to the MtGox account we should get clarity as to how much is left. Of course the initial 30% haircut might have taken into account the promise of the investors to cover the previous (Linode & Rackspace) thefts. A promise they do not appear to have kept.

[nrd525]

If bitcoin was worth zero would you be happy to get zero back for your bitcoins?

[dancingnancy]

If bitcoin was worth zero would you be happy to get zero back for your bitcoins?

What would the difference be then?  Get robbed 95 cents on the dollar or get nothing. 

[dancingnancy]

Got this 4th Dec after inquiring

The Liquidators report on the progress of the liquidation will be emailed to creditors shortly.
 
Regards
Anne Swanepoel
Secretary
Description: C:\Users\annes\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Signatures\Corporate-PKF-Email-Small.jpg
PKF Corporate Recovery & Insolvency (Auckland) Limited
Level 3, 48 Courthouse Lane | PO Box 3678, Auckland 1140, New Zealand
anne.swanepoel@pkfcr.co.nz
www.pkfcr.co.nz
P:
+64 9 302 0521
F:
+64 9 302 0536
DDI:
+64 9 306 7423

What does "shortly" mean to these people? 

[realnowhereman]

If bitcoin was worth zero would you be happy to get zero back for your bitcoins?

Happy... no.  But at least I would be getting back what I put in.

50 BTC in ... 50 BTC out.

$50 in... $50 out.

The claim form suggests that they are aware of the difference, since it asks for "5a. Total Amount of Cash Owed USD (if any)" and "5b. Total Number of Bitcoins Owed (if any)".  Clearly then the liquidator understands that the debts are in two denominations.

[tbcoin]

One month delay and no news  ...

[dancingnancy]

don't dare e-mail them either, cost us another 1%