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Author Topic: Are the bitcoin blockchain analysis companies a thread to the bitcoins privacy?  (Read 615 times)
owm123
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December 01, 2015, 10:00:59 PM
 #1

I read this interesting article: Can You Really 'Know' a Customer Who Uses Bitcoin?
Penny Crosman
http://www.americanbanker.com/news/bank-technology/can-you-really-know-a-customer-who-uses-bitcoin-1078095-1.html

They write in one point:

Quote
The very existence of these startups raises questions about whether bitcoin users' privacy can be protected as banks try to comply with regulations that require them to understand their customers.

Andresen said that bitcoin privacy is very complicated before: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-06/06/bitcoin-retail

Quote
"Bitcoin transaction privacy is really complicated," he says. "If you want to be sure that your transactions are going to be private, then you probably need to hire a cryptography PhD to analyse your system."

"It's definitely a concern, and it's definitely part of the reason I say that Bitcoin is an experiment," Andresen adds.

So in light of more and more startups trying to analyze blockchain, are you worried about your transactions being public and available anyone to study, which eventually could lead to de-anonymization: http://allcoinsnews.com/2015/11/30/potential-for-bitcoin-and-blockchains-to-become-de-anonymized/

Bitcoin is NOT anonymous: http://www.bitcoinisnotanonymous.com
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December 01, 2015, 10:34:18 PM
 #2

Bitcoin's fungibility is threatened by blockchain analysis, yes. Because so-called "core developers" are not taking it seriously and in fact make statements in opposition of a fungible coin, I don't advocate on behalf of hard forks they propose.

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December 01, 2015, 10:34:25 PM
 #3

no.

say i advertised to the world that i own 1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah and i moved funds to address A,B,C,D, by just looking at the blockchain itself

no one knows if i bought a coffee at starbucks using address B or a stick of desktop ram.
no one knows if address A is still me, or a third party i swapped with.
no one knows if address B's private key is stored on my PC at home, or a smartphone.
no one knows if address C is using multibit, blockchain.info, trezor or bitcoin-core.
no one knows any transaction to address D happened face to face, via IRC or on an exchange

so bitcoins blockchain analyzers cant deem much information via blockchain itself. they still need outside information to link it.
much like paper money needs CCTV footage from ATM's and shops security camera's. followed by face recognition and government databases like drivers licences and passports, to be able to link money to a person..
they cant just follow the bank notes serial numbers to learn everything, it requires other outside information and investigations.

so once you move funds out of an exchange that knows your life story. put the funds into a third address and suddenly they dont know if the third address is you, another exchange, a different person, a retailer, ..

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Don't take any information given on this forum on face value. Please do your own due diligence & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. If you wish to seek legal FACTUAL advice, then seek the guidance of a LEGAL specialist.
owm123
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December 01, 2015, 11:38:04 PM
 #4

no.

say i advertised to the world that i own 1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah and i moved funds to address A,B,C,D, by just looking at the blockchain itself

no one knows if i bought a coffee at starbucks using address B or a stick of desktop ram.
no one knows if address A is still me, or a third party i swapped with.
no one knows if address B's private key is stored on my PC at home, or a smartphone.
no one knows if address C is using multibit, blockchain.info, trezor or bitcoin-core.
no one knows any transaction to address D happened face to face, via IRC or on an exchange

so bitcoins blockchain analyzers cant deem much information via blockchain itself. they still need outside information to link it.
much like paper money needs CCTV footage from ATM's and shops security camera's. followed by face recognition and government databases like drivers licences and passports, to be able to link money to a person..
they cant just follow the bank notes serial numbers to learn everything, it requires other outside information and investigations.

so once you move funds out of an exchange that knows your life story. put the funds into a third address and suddenly they dont know if the third address is you, another exchange, a different person, a retailer, ..

I wouldn't be so sure. Maybe now an ordinary person would have difficult time to understand the connections between you and your address. But what about future, or someone with resources of research institutions, governments or nsa? Even Jeff Garzik admits taht bitcoin is very traceable in "Bitcoins ARE traceable [Interview with Jeff Garzik] " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p9M1IU2k50

Quote
We really have been issuing corrections madly left and right to journalists and politicians alike that, when they claim that bitcoin is anonymous and untraceable, in fact, the opposite is true. It's imminently traceable. Every single bitcoin user has a copy of the public bitcoin ledger on their computer [3:20]

its pretty blib and dumb to do a lot of illegal transactions on bitcoin when it's so easily traceable [4:33]




Bitcoin is NOT anonymous: http://www.bitcoinisnotanonymous.com
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December 02, 2015, 12:07:10 AM
 #5

So in light of more and more startups trying to analyze blockchain, are you worried about your transactions being public and available anyone to study, which eventually could lead to de-anonymization: http://allcoinsnews.com/2015/11/30/potential-for-bitcoin-and-blockchains-to-become-de-anonymized/

They have the blockchain, can analyse the blockchain all they want. When this type of data mining matures to a point where it is very quick to "dox" a person in the blockchain, there will be another higher level of mixers available. Am I worried that they can put a name to my coins? Not really. They can guess which address belongs to me and how much I have, they can't put point deduce a name from the blockchain.
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December 02, 2015, 12:07:18 AM
 #6

bitcoins are trackable.. every single satoshi of every bitcoin can be seen from one address to the next..

but to know WHO owns each address is something that analyzing the blockchain WILL NOT tell you!!

it would require OTHER sources where people STUPIDLY publish their real life names and postal addresses with a bitcoin address.

so although using an exchange that demands KYC may reveal the deposit address and withdrawal address linkage.. once the funds are moved on from those 2 addresses, the linkage evaporates.

EG
lets say i give all my details to coinbase. do some trades and then withdraw to
1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah

now government can see coinbases records and know my real name is related to:
1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah

but then looking at the blockchain when funds are then moved to
1sdfsldfksspBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah
1klgkjhlfgklfBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah
1pfgkfgdfgkBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah
1mfdgdlfgjdBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah

suddenly no one knows if those are still me. or starbucks or a third party..

so analylizing the blockchain means nothing unless its using information gleaned from other databases, which is not a bitcoin problem but a exchange/business using bitcoin problem.

so as long as you only do private trades and move funds and not register your real life to a service that links to an address.. there is no problem
and even if you do register to a service known to hand out your real life info.. you can just move the funds to a new address.. (takes 2 seconds)

that is why bitcoin is pseudonymous.. because it relies on people who want to be anonymous, to not be stupid about it


I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Don't take any information given on this forum on face value. Please do your own due diligence & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. If you wish to seek legal FACTUAL advice, then seek the guidance of a LEGAL specialist.
ATguy
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December 02, 2015, 01:34:20 AM
 #7


EG
lets say i give all my details to coinbase. do some trades and then withdraw to
1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah

now government can see coinbases records and know my real name is related to:
1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah

but then looking at the blockchain when funds are then moved to
1sdfsldfksspBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah
1klgkjhlfgklfBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah
1pfgkfgdfgkBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah
1mfdgdlfgjdBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah

suddenly no one knows if those are still me. or starbucks or a third party..

so analylizing the blockchain means nothing unless its using information gleaned from other databases, which is not a bitcoin problem but a exchange/business using bitcoin problem.

so as long as you only do private trades and move funds and not register your real life to a service that links to an address.. there is no problem
and even if you do register to a service known to hand out your real life info.. you can just move the funds to a new address.. (takes 2 seconds)


Technically you can only assume the coins you withdraw from coinbase are still yours, but not always true.

But the point is if some of the follow up addresses can be provably linked to you again (registered service with your real life info) (lets say 1mfdgdlfgjdBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah) then one can assume the adresses in between are yours as well (it mean 1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah  is your very likely).

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December 02, 2015, 01:46:45 AM
 #8

Of course it's a risk. Though in reality the risk is the user. Everyone needs to be cautious with how he treats his bitcoin addresses. Especially change addresses turn out to be a great tool to connect all the bitcoin addresses in your wallet. Then let's say you have a public address, then one can find out a lot of the other addresses you own. He might check the transactions and find that you paid bitcoins to a sex webcam site or you were stupid enough to invest in a scam project.

One has to be really cautious.

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December 02, 2015, 01:51:59 AM
 #9


Technically you can only assume the coins you withdraw from coinbase are still yours, but not always true.

But the point is if some of the follow up addresses can be provably linked to you again (registered service with your real life info) (lets say 1mfdgdlfgjdBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah) then one can assume the adresses in between are yours as well (it mean 1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah  is your very likely).


but ANALYZING THE BLOCKCHAIN itself... cannot prove any of that...

only agencies with access to write warrants to grab BUSINESSES KYC data can do this.

again blockchain analysis stops once the funds are moved.. its only when you link your name to a database/forum.. (not blockchain) do problems arise.

blockchain doesnt store your name. and no analysis will find your name just by reading transactions.. it requires access to other sources..

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Don't take any information given on this forum on face value. Please do your own due diligence & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. If you wish to seek legal FACTUAL advice, then seek the guidance of a LEGAL specialist.
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December 02, 2015, 01:52:21 AM
 #10

no.

say i advertised to the world that i own 1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah and i moved funds to address A,B,C,D, by just looking at the blockchain itself

no one knows if i bought a coffee at starbucks using address B or a stick of desktop ram.

They might know when starbucks is using a wallet like exchanges are using. Exchanges wallets adresses can be identified relatively easy. Then when someone knows that the address belongs to starbucks then they know you bought there.


no one knows if address A is still me, or a third party i swapped with.

Depends on if the address you sent to is public, because it is the address of a shareholder in a project and an address didivends are sent too. Or it can be identified as belonging to a websites wallet.


no one knows if address B's private key is stored on my PC at home, or a smartphone.

No one needs to know. It's bad enough when they know it's yours. It's like letting them check your bank statements.


no one knows if address C is using multibit, blockchain.info, trezor or bitcoin-core.

Irrelevant too.


no one knows any transaction to address D happened face to face, via IRC or on an exchange

Not interesting.


so bitcoins blockchain analyzers cant deem much information via blockchain itself. they still need outside information to link it.
much like paper money needs CCTV footage from ATM's and shops security camera's. followed by face recognition and government databases like drivers licences and passports, to be able to link money to a person..
they cant just follow the bank notes serial numbers to learn everything, it requires other outside information and investigations.

so once you move funds out of an exchange that knows your life story. put the funds into a third address and suddenly they dont know if the third address is you, another exchange, a different person, a retailer, ..

I would suggest you check out walletexplorer.com. Use a public address of yours and then try to follow the leads, google addresses and so on. I'm pretty sure you will be surprised how much someone can tell about you.

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franky1
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December 02, 2015, 07:36:29 AM
 #11

no.

say i advertised to the world that i own 1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah and i moved funds to address A,B,C,D, by just looking at the blockchain itself

no one knows if i bought a coffee at starbucks using address B or a stick of desktop ram.

They might know when starbucks is using a wallet like exchanges are using. Exchanges wallets adresses can be identified relatively easy. Then when someone knows that the address belongs to starbucks then they know you bought there.


the topic is blockchain explorer analysis

so lets say i withdrew from an exchange. and bought starbucks coffee (via bitpay)..

the BLOCKCHAIN would only show a transaction from an exchange, to bitpay ......... that is it.. the blockchain does not store names, postal info or anything else
it would not tell them who i am, how many sugars i asked for in my coffee..

to learn who i am...would require:
a warrant to request data from the exchange.

to learn what the transaction was for...would require:
a warrant to request which merchant used bitpay.
and then a warrant for starbucks to find out what product was ordered

again the blockchain would not reveal this information.
and as i said in a previous post..

instead of 1C0inB45eblahblahblahblah -> 1BitP4yblahblahblahblahblahblahblahbla

if you do 1C0inB45eblahblahblahblah -> 1sdfsldfksspBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah -> 1klgkjhlfgklfBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah -> 1pfgkfgdfgkBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah -> 1BitP4yblahblahblahblahblahblahblahbla

there is no way of knowing if the funds from green to red, were me buying a pepsi from a friend. and then that friend buying a sandwich from blue.. and it was blue who bought the starbucks coffee..

blockchain is useless at identifying people on its own.. it requires government databases, warrents and private companies handing out info to achieve only a potential trail of bread crumbs.. which can be blown away just by moving funds.

now then, even if there was 2 transactions that looked like:
1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah -> 1sdfsldfksspBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah
1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah <- 1sdfsldfksspBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah

does that mean that 1sdfsldfksspBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah is mine?
nope, that could be a retailer that i then cancelled the order with
that could be an escrow that got cancelled
that could be millions of different possibilities.. the blockchain would not tell you what the 1sdfsldfksspBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah transactions were all about.


ok the short version
here is a random address i plucked from blockchain.info: 1CR5WHEyXMmu4W4JASAJD5vcmkquiniD53
tell me:
the owners full name
the owners home postal address
the owners employment
tell me what products the owner made/received.

do this only via blockchain analysis. goodluck

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Don't take any information given on this forum on face value. Please do your own due diligence & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. If you wish to seek legal FACTUAL advice, then seek the guidance of a LEGAL specialist.
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December 10, 2015, 11:39:04 PM
 #12

no.

say i advertised to the world that i own 1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah and i moved funds to address A,B,C,D, by just looking at the blockchain itself

no one knows if i bought a coffee at starbucks using address B or a stick of desktop ram.

They might know when starbucks is using a wallet like exchanges are using. Exchanges wallets adresses can be identified relatively easy. Then when someone knows that the address belongs to starbucks then they know you bought there.


the topic is blockchain explorer analysis

so lets say i withdrew from an exchange. and bought starbucks coffee (via bitpay)..

the BLOCKCHAIN would only show a transaction from an exchange, to bitpay ......... that is it.. the blockchain does not store names, postal info or anything else
it would not tell them who i am, how many sugars i asked for in my coffee..

to learn who i am...would require:
a warrant to request data from the exchange.

to learn what the transaction was for...would require:
a warrant to request which merchant used bitpay.
and then a warrant for starbucks to find out what product was ordered

again the blockchain would not reveal this information.
and as i said in a previous post..

instead of 1C0inB45eblahblahblahblah -> 1BitP4yblahblahblahblahblahblahblahbla

if you do 1C0inB45eblahblahblahblah -> 1sdfsldfksspBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah -> 1klgkjhlfgklfBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah -> 1pfgkfgdfgkBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah -> 1BitP4yblahblahblahblahblahblahblahbla

there is no way of knowing if the funds from green to red, were me buying a pepsi from a friend. and then that friend buying a sandwich from blue.. and it was blue who bought the starbucks coffee..

blockchain is useless at identifying people on its own.. it requires government databases, warrents and private companies handing out info to achieve only a potential trail of bread crumbs.. which can be blown away just by moving funds.

now then, even if there was 2 transactions that looked like:
1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah -> 1sdfsldfksspBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah
1Fr4nky0n3BlahBlahBlahBlahBlah <- 1sdfsldfksspBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah

does that mean that 1sdfsldfksspBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah is mine?
nope, that could be a retailer that i then cancelled the order with
that could be an escrow that got cancelled
that could be millions of different possibilities.. the blockchain would not tell you what the 1sdfsldfksspBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah transactions were all about.


ok the short version
here is a random address i plucked from blockchain.info: 1CR5WHEyXMmu4W4JASAJD5vcmkquiniD53
tell me:
the owners full name
the owners home postal address
the owners employment
tell me what products the owner made/received.

do this only via blockchain analysis. goodluck

Of course when there is a payment service like bitpay involved then it is no risk. It would be completely different when the company would have his own wallet. Because it would mean it would relatively easy to find out nearly all of the addresses that belong to this companies wallet. Then it would be highly likely that the transaction coming from you is known to be going to starbucks.

Blockchain analysis and the anonymity problem is not working that way. What you need is one publicly known address of a person. Then all depends on how connected this address is. Did that address send funds to camsites, to investments, to hyip's? If these websites have their own wallet then it would be likely that the address you paid to will be identified as belonging to these services.

Next thing is... were funds send from that address AND from another address at the same time in one transaction? Then it is sure that this address belongs to your wallet too. Change addresses can easily make this effect. They are a tool to connect your wallet addresses and reveal them, letting you lose anonymity.

Of course only to the level where the first address is known to belong to you. Or to your username.

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