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Author Topic: A flaw in bitcoin, if it became widely adopted 21m bitcoins, 7b people on planet  (Read 3050 times)
jacobmayes94
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December 02, 2015, 08:17:56 PM
 #1

This is not a flame or diss at bitcoin, but it is something I can't get out of my mind. I love bitcoin, and would love to see traditional banks loose their grip. But its one teeny flaw, that I am not sure how it would be addressed short of a hard fork.

7 + billion people on the planet, of which most of those handle a currency of some description.

21 million bitcoins. Would mean that if it became widespread no one human could ever have a 'full' coin but it could be spent in smaller denominations.

Discuss. I feel this is an interesting issue I am curious to hear others opinions on.

Quite a blunt topic I know, but I am insanely curious on this one.

Jacob

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December 02, 2015, 08:19:43 PM
 #2

Why does everyone need a whole Bitcoin?

If you aren't the sole controller of your private keys, you don't have any bitcoins.
jacobmayes94
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December 02, 2015, 08:21:46 PM
 #3

Well this is what I want to discuss, what are peoples thoughts on it. The fact it can be spent in any denomination is good, but it seems quite bizarre. Unless its just how my mind works. The fact they can be spent in any denomination is a good thing, I am just curious and it is the only flaw I can see when it comes to widespread adoption. Not counting coins slowly 'lost' over time if people lost their private keys, etc and coins already lost to such a thing. Which over time, would bring the supply down even further.

More curious to see other community members thoughts on this aspect of bitcoin. The tight supply would keep them valuable of course, meaning it is worth something but I am more curious that's all on other people's takes on these limitations. Been bugging me for weeks now so needed to put it out there : )

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December 02, 2015, 08:23:50 PM
 #4

There are a maximum of 2,099,999,997,690,000 Bitcoin elements (called satoshis), which are currently most commonly measured in units of 100,000,000 known as BTC.

I think there are plenty of units to go around.

If you aren't the sole controller of your private keys, you don't have any bitcoins.
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December 02, 2015, 08:27:42 PM
 #5

2,099,999,997,690,000... an insane number. Sorry if I seemed stupid it was a curious question and I do find that currently I need a minimum spend before one can send coins with the current wallet client... Id bet widespread adoption would change the whole dynamic of transaction fees and the like? Especially if people were not owning whole bitcoins, the transaction fee would become more noticeable and would need to be adjusted? Sorry if I seem dumb on this front its been a curious thing for me its a psychological thing about having 1 complete bitcoin, or is that just the way the wallet reads it out as in 1.xxxxxxxxxx so its kinda deceiving... Everyone only having 0.xxxxxxxxx would seem odd

Now you've explained that to be, so the actual form of the currency is measured in the smallest units, not the 'BTC' measurement which kinda was psychologically deceiving! Should have done the math and checked how many satoshis there could be : )

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December 02, 2015, 08:31:21 PM
 #6

This is a non-issue compared to other potential problems with Bitcoin/bitcoin.

Just like how in other countries where there is inflation (or hyper inflation), they change the prices up when needed,
the same will happen with bitcoin in the future, we will just go in reverse and prices would go down.

Edit: also to add to the above comments, with Bitcoin/bitcoin,
my understanding is we can go even below a satoshi, if that is ever really needed.
So we could always add more zeros to the end and are not limited to the "2,099,999,997,690,000" number.

I support a decentralized & unregulatable ledger first, with safe scaling over time.
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December 02, 2015, 08:32:37 PM
 #7

2,099,999,997,690,000... an insane number. Sorry if I seemed stupid it was a curious question and I do find that currently I need a minimum spend before one can send coins with the current wallet client... Id bet widespread adoption would change the whole dynamic of transaction fees and the like? Especially if people were not owning whole bitcoins, the transaction fee would become more noticeable and would need to be adjusted? Sorry if I seem dumb on this front its been a curious thing for me its a psychological thing about having 1 complete bitcoin, or is that just the way the wallet reads it out as in 1.xxxxxxxxxx so its kinda deceiving... Everyone only having 0.xxxxxxxxx would seem odd

Now you've explained that to be, so the actual form of the currency is measured in the smallest units, not the 'BTC' measurement which kinda was psychologically deceiving!

Jacob

The standard Bitcoin Core wallet has an option that can set the display units to be a) whole bitcoins, b) milli-bitcoins, or c) micro-bitcoins.  I'm sure other wallets have such an option also.


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December 02, 2015, 08:41:17 PM
 #8

The fact it can be spent in any denomination is good, but it seems quite bizarre. Unless its just how my mind works.


Not just your mind but it is how every human mind works. I mean because there are total 2.100.000.000.000.000 of Satoshis available, human mind needs something more managable which can be understood better, so 21 million Bitcoins and each Bitcoin containing 100 million smallest units called Satoshi can do this trick.

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December 02, 2015, 08:42:35 PM
 #9

2,099,999,997,690,000... an insane number.

The OP didn't have a math teacher that explored the concept of 'infinitely divisible".  While not infinite, bitcoin is pretty damn close.  This is a major non-issue.  


Unless its just how my mind works.
It's almost as if your mind doesn't actually work.  Maybe: 'sort-of lays around' is more like it.
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December 02, 2015, 08:43:11 PM
 #10

2,099,999,997,690,000... an insane number. Sorry if I seemed stupid it was a curious question and I do find that currently I need a minimum spend before one can send coins with the current wallet client... Id bet widespread adoption would change the whole dynamic of transaction fees and the like? Especially if people were not owning whole bitcoins, the transaction fee would become more noticeable and would need to be adjusted? Sorry if I seem dumb on this front its been a curious thing for me its a psychological thing about having 1 complete bitcoin, or is that just the way the wallet reads it out as in 1.xxxxxxxxxx so its kinda deceiving... Everyone only having 0.xxxxxxxxx would seem odd

Now you've explained that to be, so the actual form of the currency is measured in the smallest units, not the 'BTC' measurement which kinda was psychologically deceiving! Should have done the math and checked how many satoshis there could be : )

Jacob

Transaction fees have been adjusted several times in the past as the exchange rate has increased. I'm sure they will continue to be adjusted.

The smallest unit of U.S. currency is the "penny".  The smallest unit of Bitcoin currency is the "satoshi".

There are 100,000,000 satoshi in 1 "bitcoin".
There are 100,000,000 pennies in 1 million dollars.

Saying that you have 0.002000 00 BTC is like saying that you have 0.002 million dollars.

You can say that if you like, but it's easier to just move the decimal over 3 places and give it a new name (2 thousand dollars).
You can do the same with bitcoin.  Move the decimal over 3 places and call it 2 millibitcoin.

Or you could move the decimal over 6 places and give it another name:
2000 dollars
2000 microbitcoin

Saying its a "flaw" that there isn't enough bitcoin for everyone to have at least 1 bitcoin is like saying its a "flaw" that there isn't enough dollars for everyone to have at least 1 million dollars.

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December 02, 2015, 08:55:41 PM
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Saying its a "flaw" that there isn't enough bitcoin for everyone to have at least 1 bitcoin is like saying its a "flaw" that there isn't enough dollars for everyone to have at least 1 million dollars.



With Dollar inflation, im pretty sure in next one or two generations everyone will have at least 1 million dollars... Dollar flaw will be fixed...  Sorry, culdnt resist.

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December 02, 2015, 08:57:22 PM
 #12

ok in most western world countries. the average life time savings is $45k
(yes some are billionaires yes some only have $100 in the bank account. and yes some are children who dont have banks..but averages as $45k so dont knitpick)

now imagine all 7billion people had $45k each so that everyone on the planet would total $315 trillion

$315,000,000,000,000

bitcoin lets say there are 20mill (1m deductions due to private key losses/deletion), there would be 2 quadrillion satoshi's

2,000,000,000,000,000

making $1 convert to ~6 satoshi with the lowest tx fee of 1sat=$0.16c

so that is maths of the utopian dream some fanatics wanting a one world currency.. however, the whole world WILL NOT adopt bitcoin. sorry but that is the reality.
there will be MANY millions.. MANY... but not all 7 billion will use bitcoin for their entire life savings..(sorry to burst your bubble)

so lets say 10% of the world(700m) put life savings into bitcoin, each $1 would be ~60satoshi with a minimal tx fee of <2c(1sat)
so lets say 1% of the world(70m) put life savings into bitcoin, each $1 would be ~600satoshi with a minimal tx fee of <0.2c(1sat)

so even at 700million people putting their life savings into bitcoin, the maths works with a reasonable and workable holding and reasonable tx fee.

so based on units of measure bitcoin is capable of holding funds of upto 1 billion people with a sub 3c tx fee

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December 02, 2015, 09:01:41 PM
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2,099,999,997,690,000... an insane number.

nope.


this is an insane number : http://www.usdebtclock.org/
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December 02, 2015, 09:03:23 PM
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But we all know that bitcoin will not be so widespread. If it became widely accepted, our governments would come together and take a shot at their own altcoin - one supported by them - that has the capacity of, say 21 billion, to help.

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December 02, 2015, 09:06:04 PM
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Try to calculate with mbtc Smiley
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December 02, 2015, 09:26:40 PM
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adoption will fix it itself, by evaluating more the minimal divisor of bitcoin, 1 satoshi will have a greater value

and you have a whole 2.1Q(quadrillion, short scale) of satoshi, plenty for everybody
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December 02, 2015, 09:30:45 PM
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Not everyone needs one Bitcoin. You just need a small amount. And how do you know that everyone wants a whole Bitcoin, you can't make a decision for everyone else.
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December 02, 2015, 09:38:52 PM
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There are only 170,000 tonnes of gold in the world. Is that a fatal flaw in gold since it is not possible to own 1 tonne per person?

Scarcity exists. It will always exist. Picking any unit and saying "There aren't enough of these for everyone to have one" is arbitrary.

Bitcoin is fungible to eight places and even after that can be patched to support more.

What is the difference between everyone having 1 bitcoin and everyone having .003 bitcoin? Nothing.
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December 02, 2015, 09:48:23 PM
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There are only 170,000 tonnes of gold in the world. Is that a fatal flaw in gold since it is not possible to own 1 tonne per person?

Scarcity exists. It will always exist. Picking any unit and saying "There aren't enough of these for everyone to have one" is arbitrary.

Bitcoin is fungible to eight places and even after that can be patched to support more.

What is the difference between everyone having 1 bitcoin and everyone having .003 bitcoin? Nothing.

It's funny that you have mentioned this, but Bitcoin was designed to mimic the scarcity of the gold!

As for hehe number of bitcoins, people pay too much attention to this so called problem. 1 btc is divisible up to 8 places and this can be even higher with a simple change of code in the future, so no worries!
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December 02, 2015, 10:03:55 PM
 #20

1.xxxxxxxxxx so its kinda deceiving... Everyone only having 0.xxxxxxxxx would seem odd

my brother was the same.  when i first explained bitcoin to him he had to have a whole one.  which was strange to me because i had been buying in what ever 0.0.....'s i could afford. 

The other point is if you check out some other wallets for example Breadwallet on the iphone you use micro bits so instead of 0.00430000.  its shown as 4300mbtc which means it looks like whole numbers.
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