PPCoin Criticism / Security / etc
Jutarul:
Quote from: cunicula on November 27, 2012, 06:49:23 AM
I suggest the fork do at least the following three things:
1) Stop all PoW generation.
How would you solve the fairness of initial distribution problem, without POW?
Quote from: cunicula on November 27, 2012, 06:49:23 AM
2) Remove centralized checkpoints.
How else to protect a nascent blockchain?
Quote from: cunicula on November 27, 2012, 06:49:23 AM
3) Cap interest accumulation at 90 days. [Incentive to keep node running is much too weak right now.]
I thought that this is implemented:
Quote
CBigNum bnCoinDay = CBigNum(nValueIn) * min(txNew.nTime-pcoin.first->nTime, (unsigned int)STAKE_MAX_AGE) / COIN / (24 * 60 * 60);
STAKE_MAX_AGE is set to 90 days.
Quote from: cunicula on November 27, 2012, 06:49:23 AM
Inclusion of PoW also defeats the point (it is like PoS but also incorporates the implicit fees and waste of PoW).
waste is an issue. However, what's more important is network security. So introducing PoS is a significant alteration in the resilience level.
cunicula:
Quote from: Jutarul on November 27, 2012, 10:34:59 AM
Quote from: cunicula on November 27, 2012, 06:49:23 AM
I suggest the fork do at least the following three things:
1) Stop all PoW generation.
How would you solve the fairness of initial distribution problem, without POW?
You can buy the currency if you want to invest in it. You can give it away if you want to promote its use. At the outset I would have supported the infamous premine coupled with bounties to get stuff done. PoW generation is not doing much to promote adoption these days.
Quote from: Jutarul on November 27, 2012, 10:34:59 AM
Quote from: cunicula on November 27, 2012, 06:49:23 AM
2) Remove centralized checkpoints.
How else to protect a nascent blockchain?
The reason the checkpoints are necessary should be because of PoW generation. I hope that's the reason.
If not, we need to know what these checkpoints are for. We can't find out as long as they are there and no one tells us.
Quote from: Jutarul on November 27, 2012, 10:34:59 AM
Quote from: cunicula on November 27, 2012, 06:49:23 AM
3) Cap interest accumulation at 90 days. [Incentive to keep node running is much too weak right now.]
I thought that this is implemented:
Quote
CBigNum bnCoinDay = CBigNum(nValueIn) * min(txNew.nTime-pcoin.first->nTime, (unsigned int)STAKE_MAX_AGE) / COIN / (24 * 60 * 60);
STAKE_MAX_AGE is set to 90 days.
This is for coin generation. Not for the amount of interest you are paid. PoS security is directly proportional to the amount of coin-age currently on line.
If I don't earn more by being online often, then there is no incentive to come online. Instead I can just hold my PPCoin until I want to cash out.
Then quickly generate my stake block and sell. This does do much to secure the network at all. I should be generating many stake blocks to earn my interest, not just one.
The cap ensures that I have to come online at least once in a while.
Quote from: Jutarul on November 27, 2012, 10:34:59 AM
Quote from: cunicula on November 27, 2012, 06:49:23 AM
Inclusion of PoW also defeats the point (it is like PoS but also incorporates the implicit fees and waste of PoW).
waste is an issue. However, what's more important is network security. So introducing PoS is a significant alteration in the resilience level.
I think waste is a big issue. To me, PoS schemes are attractive because a) they are secure b) they are efficient and cheap.
Efficient and cheap means no PoW inflation tax and minimal txn fees.
markm:
Looking at the code, it seems to basically be solidcoin without maybe only one master-node instead of several master-nodes.
I tried to hack out all proof of work nd all checking of checkpoints but then both sides seem to wait for the other to start saying something.
So possibly it won't even do anything until it gets a go-ahead from the solid node or something.
Since without proof of work blocks coins have to come from somewhere, I set the minimum reward for a proof of stake block to one coin.
The fact they won't even talk to each other is nasty though, it seems to imply that there is expected to alredy be something out there to get and that someone you connect to will push it at you.
I have been awake too long now to track down exactly why tht happens until after I sleep.
Cunicula it does seem likely you are correct that the whole proof of work thing is only there to provide an excuse for being controlled by the solid node(s) in the usual solid central control style system we have seen so many times before. I did try to put into the counting up of coin ages max of 90 days per each coin it found.
Maybe my problem is there is no coin-age initilly so maybe it does not try to make a stake block thus does not get the free minimum one coin reward for making a stake block. i might have to make it always have one coin's worth of chance to try, or something, in the case where it has no coins initially.
An incentive to be online is for transactions to get processed, since with stake blocks being the only blocks no transactions will go through unless at least one node stays online long enough for a block to get created; and maybe also the less people who are online trying to make a stake block the longer it maybe might take for one to be made. 9that one lone person who made one maybe used all his coin-age so needs 90 days to recover... so initially it might need at least 90 wallets to have been created in order for one block a day to be able to be made...)
-MarkM-
cunicula:
Quote from: markm on November 27, 2012, 03:50:02 PM
Looking at the code, it seems to basically be solidcoin without maybe only one master-node instead of several master-nodes.
The PoW does nothing but generate currency. It doesn't try to secure anything. I have no idea how the master node works.
I tried to hack out all proof of work nd all checking of checkpoints but then both sides seem to wait for the other to start saying something.
[/quote]
As I understand it, the proof of stake relies on the proof of work to generate time stamps. The timestamps are then used to iterate a random process which allows stake generation. Unless proof-of-stake can also generate the timestamps, it might be necessary to leave proof-of-work in there to get it to run. If so, perhaps reduce the block reward to some trivial amount. There also is some management of the proportions of both types of blocks that would need to be adjusted to pure proof-of-stake.
Quote from: markm on November 27, 2012, 03:50:02 PM
So possibly it won't even do anything until it gets a go-ahead from the solid node or something.
Hmmm. remove that part?
Quote from: markm on November 27, 2012, 03:50:02 PM
Since without proof of work blocks coins have to come from somewhere, I set the minimum reward for a proof of stake block to one coin.
Fine by me. One coin is pretty trivial.
Quote from: markm on November 27, 2012, 03:50:02 PM
The fact they won't even talk to each other is nasty though, it seems to imply that there is expected to alredy be something out there to get and that someone you connect to will push it at you.
Can you reinsert bitcoin code that facilitates communication?
Quote from: markm on November 27, 2012, 03:50:02 PM
Cunicula it does seem likely you are correct that the whole proof of work thing is only there to provide an excuse for being controlled by the solid node(s) in the usual solid central control style system we have seen so many times before. I did try to put into the counting up of coin ages max of 90 days per each coin it found.
Maybe my problem is there is no coin-age initilly so maybe it does not try to make a stake block thus does not get the free minimum one coin reward for making a stake block. i might have to make it always have one coin's worth of chance to try, or something, in the case where it has no coins initially.
An incentive to be online is for transactions to get processed, since with stake blocks being the only blocks no transactions will go through unless at least one node stays online long enough for a block to get created; and maybe also the less people who are online trying to make a stake block the longer it maybe might take for one to be made. 9that one lone person who made one maybe used all his coin-age so needs 90 days to recover... so initially it might need at least 90 wallets to have been created in order for one block a day to be able to be made...)
-MarkM-
My only comment on the rest of this is that I do not believe that it is completely a SolidCoin master node style system. There is underlying code underneath which may work.
markm:
If it will work it might be useful to that person who apparently has oodles of folk wanting to each start a separate chain, since basically if they sell more than half the company it makes sense the buyer should have control of it. They could spawn oodles of them so that there would be many many many small targets each available in effect for purchase by buying half their coins. Might work okay as a corporate shares system.
Maybe in fact they would be better than coloured coins because the majority owner's control would be kind of built in, instead of the sellers being able to wait for someone to buy most of their offering then go like ha ha so what you still have no power over the part we didn't yet sell to you, no control of the whole set so to speak.
-MarkM-
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