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Author Topic: Is Ripple a Bitcoin Killer or Complementer? Founder of Mt Gox will launch Ripple  (Read 34047 times)
JoelKatz
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November 30, 2012, 03:03:17 AM
 #41

reading the posts here. some people are saying its a credit line for loans.

some are saying its a web of trust system

yet the website says its a payment transfer system much like bitcoin/paypal.

my last reply was based on the belief others had on a trust/credit/rep system.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/61320

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November 30, 2012, 03:15:58 AM
 #42

Check out https://ripplepay.com
Same whois as ripple.com, so I guess that is their public site.

Could that be something?
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November 30, 2012, 03:22:54 AM
 #43

Check out https://ripplepay.com
Same whois as ripple.com, so I guess that is their public site.

Could that be something?
The web content on ripplepay.com does not relate to the new Ripple system. It's still describing Ryan's system.

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November 30, 2012, 03:26:33 AM
 #44

Ripple sounds like a great idea in theory, however knowing my friends and the relationships people have with their internet friends, I know that I wouldn't get involved in this sort of dealing.  People are unreliable, sometimes I have been broke as shit and unable to pay money I really should pay people.   Not because I'm not honest, not because I'm not their friend, but because I'm broke and a bit useless. If this sort of thing can disrupt a whole "ripple" of credit then the whole idea is doomed.  I love bitcoin because it takes ALL of the human element out of the currency.  I do not trust the stock market, I do not trust big business, and I do not trust the government to help me or to protect me from businesses out to scam me. I trust SHA256 encryption and I trust that bitcoin holders will protect their currency aggressively should any outsiders try to affect its value.
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November 30, 2012, 03:39:56 AM
 #45

So, from what little I've seen of it, I'm guessing it basically functions the same as Bitcoin + OTC, except the users can't really tell the difference between money and credit, and whenever a loan defaults it just gets quietly converted into inflation.
Issuing loans tends to cause price inflation. Repaying the loans tends to cause price deflation. Defaulting on a loan has the same effect as repaying it except faster.
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November 30, 2012, 03:41:18 AM
 #46

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Ripple is an open source peer-to-peer payment system.
Ripple lets you easily, cheaply, and safely send money over the Internet to anyone, anywhere in the world.
No individual or corporation controls Ripple.

Notice it doesn't mention anything about extending credit to friends, or credit at all for that matter.

That seems pretty clear. The impression I get is that of a decentralised clearinghouse/exchange.

If it's possible to answer, is Ripple still going to support any form of money, or will it have its own numeraire?
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November 30, 2012, 03:44:43 AM
 #47

That seems pretty clear. The impression I get is that of a decentralised clearinghouse/exchange.

If it's possible to answer, is Ripple still going to support any form of money, or will it have its own numeraire?
I don't think I can answer that question. On another note, what do you think of our logo?


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November 30, 2012, 03:50:47 AM
 #48

your hulu link is for US viewers only. any other sources of accurate info on what ripple will actually consist of for us foreigners?

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November 30, 2012, 03:56:28 AM
 #49

your hulu link is for US viewers only. any other sources of accurate info on what ripple will actually consist of for us foreigners?
That was a link to an old Saturday Night Live fake commercial for "Shimmer", a product that's both a floor polish and a dessert topping.

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November 30, 2012, 04:08:53 AM
 #50

If it's possible to answer, is Ripple still going to support any form of money, or will it have its own numeraire?
I don't think I can answer that question. On another note, what do you think of our logo?



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November 30, 2012, 04:44:16 AM
 #51

Very interesting concept.

My answer is that Ripple is completely complementary to bitcoin. Ripple is *not* a currency; it is really just a sort of decentralized ledger that tracks debts between pairs of individuals. Ripple does not create fungible tokens that can be shifted trivially from one person to another. It could be complementary if a lot of people used Ripple to track bitcoin debts.

This is purely an accounting mechanism which makes it easier to track debt obligations than a Lending forum post; no need for everyone to post their lists of delinquent loans. Instead, if someone asks you for a loan, you could look at their ripple loan history. If they already have 500BTC in debt owed to 100 different individuals, then you would know they are either in over their head or are dishonest.

While you could argue that ripple works like bank notes, the difference is that there is no bank or central bank to make all debts equivalent. Example:

1. Bob asks John for a 10BTC loan.
2. Bob could send a 10btc "note" to John through Ripple while John sends Bob 10btc through the block chain.
3. John wants to buy a flashlight from ABC for 5btc. ABC accepts ripple notes *or* btc. He could either:
  a) Send 5btc to ABC. Now he is out 15btc, assuming he has the cash.
  b) Send 5btc ripple note to ABC, since he already has 10btc in notes from Bob. This puts more risk on ABC, who has to figure out if John's IOU is nearly as valuable as btc cash itself.
4. Bob pays back 10btc to John, then John sends the 10btc "note" back to Bob, thus zeroing their account with each other.
5. Now Bob has the cash to pay ABC when needed. However, if ABC really trusts Bob, they might treat his debt as good-as-cash. Thus, they might leverage this debt for their own transactions, and so the debt could get passed around to yet other individuals.

In theory, if you had a large number of lenders and borrowers with a high degree of trust, then you could have have people lending to dozens of counterparties and rarely demanding actual cash (btc). Then ripple notes for btc would be equivalent to USD loans, or even dollars themselves, which is debt owed by the government. It could be cheaper or more convenient to just trade debts rather than swapping raw bitcoins, and ripple would presumably allow you to easily sum up all your notes to know if you are a net borrower or lender.

While ripple might eventually be a great alternative to bank loans, it is still a debt system. Any debt system could collapse when there is a "run on the bank." With ripple, a run on the bank would happen when everyone decided they wanted to call in all their debts from a large borrower. Only then would you know if there was actually enough BTC currency to back the debt. Chances are the answer would be no; debt systems lend themselves to fractional reserves.

I believe Shakespeare said, "Neither a lender nor a borrower be." It seems that the spirit of bitcoin is to create an inflation-resistant currency and to shun debt-backed money systems which could fail. Decentralized debt systems could fail just like centralized ones, though the risk is more distributed. Ripple could be useful for digital distributed debt tracking, but it would not hurt bitcoin anymore than a collapsed bank would hurt the value of gold.
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November 30, 2012, 04:55:51 AM
 #52

I don't think I can answer that question. On another note, what do you think of our logo?

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November 30, 2012, 06:30:51 AM
 #53

People also shouldn't worry about the energy consumption associated with mining.  I believe as the reward tapers off, we'll enter into a phase where many entities buy mining hardware for the express purpose of sitting idle until and unless needed to thwart an attempted attack on the network.  There will also be miners that get paid a subsidy from other businesses to ensure Bitcoin transactions remain free or very cheap (ensuring that mining without subsidy is a money losing endeavor).  There may even be treaties involved to negotiate how much mining power different entities apply and keep in reserve in order to simultaneously protect the integrity of the network and not needlessly waste energy.

Bitcoin mining energy consumption is miniscule compared to the loss of human life and loss of productivity caused by existing national currencies and their management teams of killers, thieves and kidnappers. If bitcoin would replace this bankster money the quality of human life would flourish to a level never before seen and the gain in productivity would dwarf its energy cost. it can't come soon enough.



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November 30, 2012, 07:22:57 AM
 #54

For me there is no doubt both networks will be complementary. Ripple is obviously influenced by the fact that most of the team members come from a Bitcoin background. Bitcoin-related use cases are very much a priority. That's all I wanna say lest I get in trouble. Wink

What I can tell you is that this project is the most fun I've had at any startup. The team is absolutely amazing and working on something like this and getting paid for it is a dream come true. Cheesy

(Speaking of which - if you've got the skills, we're hiring.)

As far as the client is concerned, it's already open-sourced, so if you're bored waiting for more details to come out, feel free to check in on our progress: https://github.com/rippleFoundation/ripple-client/commits/master

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November 30, 2012, 07:25:12 AM
Last edit: November 30, 2012, 07:46:21 AM by JoelKatz
 #55

While ripple might eventually be a great alternative to bank loans, it is still a debt system. Any debt system could collapse when there is a "run on the bank." With ripple, a run on the bank would happen when everyone decided they wanted to call in all their debts from a large borrower. Only then would you know if there was actually enough BTC currency to back the debt. Chances are the answer would be no; debt systems lend themselves to fractional reserves.
If there's a run on the bank, you may be unable to meet immediate demands for called in debt. But you can simply issue notes worth more than the called in amount. This will bankrupt *you*, but that's the risk you take when you implement a fractional reserve. Those who loaned you money won't suffer.

For example, say I have $10,000 in deposits, all of which I've loaned out. I have a $3,000 reserve. Now, I get $8,000 called in, which I can't pay. What I do is I issue $8,000 in interest-bearing notes at double the prevailing interest rates and use them to pay back my customers. My customers will be happy because they can sell these notes for more than the $8,000 they're asking for. As the loans get paid off, and using my reserve, I can pay off the notes. Nobody gets hurt but me.

Runs aren't really a problem. Of course, such systems can still collapse due to bad loans or insufficient capitalization. Generally, a bank has an equity crisis that ends with a run and people think it's the run that killed the bank. But that's just not true. A run can destroy a healthy bank but it can't hurt those who loaned the bank money.

This probably has nothing to do with Ripple though.

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November 30, 2012, 08:31:33 AM
 #56

A JS only client sounds like a novel approach.. although I wonder why you require c++ guru's.. must be something not published yet.
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November 30, 2012, 08:49:02 AM
 #57

A JS only client sounds like a novel approach.. although I wonder why you require c++ guru's.. must be something not published yet.

The JavaScript client is only a client, it does not act as a node in the peer-to-peer network. The peer-to-peer network is implemented in C++.

I really need to shut up now though. Lips sealed

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November 30, 2012, 08:54:33 AM
 #58

Just wait until is completely out, then we will complain if needed Wink

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November 30, 2012, 08:56:18 AM
 #59

While ripple might eventually be a great alternative to bank loans, it is still a debt system. Any debt system could collapse when there is a "run on the bank." With ripple, a run on the bank would happen when everyone decided they wanted to call in all their debts from a large borrower. Only then would you know if there was actually enough BTC currency to back the debt. Chances are the answer would be no; debt systems lend themselves to fractional reserves.

This is my analysis as well, with the exception that I think it would probably work the other way around, with borrowers defaulting and basically the entire system becoming insolvent.  Regardless, I expect it to be regulated straight into oblivion, for exactly this reason.  Finally, those who have been calling for a regulated crypto-currency will get what they've asked for.

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November 30, 2012, 10:19:30 AM
 #60

When reading the Wiki I just substitute the names of all the 'friends' in the ripple Network with the names of big banks and credit card companies. And instead of "Credit" I just substitute the word "Mortgage".

And then I see how it works.  Wink

From the wiki:

"What stops someone from giving their friend a billion dollars credit?

Nothing. In fact, two people who have a high level of trust in each other could easily grant each other infinite credit. This does not in any way undermine the Ripple system. To understand this point, you must understand that in Ripple, credit with a friend is only useful if you want to buy something directly from that friend, or if other people have granted that friend credit in the same amount.

An example: Suppose I grant you a million dollars credit, and you want to use it to buy a yacht from Elsa, who happens to be connected to me on Ripple. However, for you to pay Elsa one million dollars through me, I would have to have one million dollars of credit with Elsa, and the decision to grant that credit is hers alone. As it turns out, Elsa has only decided to grant me $100 credit, and I have already used $50 of it. That means you ability to pay Elsa through me is limited my $50 remaining credit, regardless of how much credit I offer you.

You might be able to find other paths to Elsa in the Ripple network other than through me, but to make a payment of $1,000,000, you would need to be granted a total of a million dollars by your other Ripple connections, and Elsa would have to have granted her connections a million dollars in total. Not only that, but there would have to be an enormous amount of available credit at each step of each payment chain. To make a payment along a chain of intermediaries, every link in the chain must have already granted at least the amount of the payment in credit to the previous link."

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