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Author Topic: The case of chargebacks  (Read 1076 times)
AtheistAKASaneBrain
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December 17, 2015, 12:11:14 PM
 #1

It's pretty clear now Bitcoin is the ultimate store of value in terms of being able to subvert capital controls and other forms of slavery, it's the best way to move money from A to B, and a bunch of other things.

But focusing on daily usage by the average joe: How does the chargeback problem get solved?
If someone buys something, and this something is broken and they want their money back, or something the lines, what guarantees that he will the money back since the transactions cannot be reversed? You could say this is a feature, but for a lot of average joes out there, this is otherworldly and they want to know that they can get their money back because this gives them peace of mind.

What to say to those that criticize the lack of chargebacks in Bitcoin beyond "it's a feature" which is rather subjective?
Is something in the works to solve this and actually securely allow chargebacks?
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December 17, 2015, 12:18:44 PM
 #2

It's pretty clear now Bitcoin is the ultimate store of value in terms of being able to subvert capital controls and other forms of slavery, it's the best way to move money from A to B, and a bunch of other things.

But focusing on daily usage by the average joe: How does the chargeback problem get solved?
If someone buys something, and this something is broken and they want their money back, or something the lines, what guarantees that he will the money back since the transactions cannot be reversed? You could say this is a feature, but for a lot of average joes out there, this is otherworldly and they want to know that they can get their money back because this gives them peace of mind.

What to say to those that criticize the lack of chargebacks in Bitcoin beyond "it's a feature" which is rather subjective?
Is something in the works to solve this and actually securely allow chargebacks?

Bitcoin is a currency.  If you want a service that provides chargeback support, then there can be services built that use bitcoin and provide that just like there are for any currency.

Let me make the point clear with an example using a different currency...

If I walk into a store and purchase something that costs $15 with U.S. cash (hand the cashier a $20 bill, and they hand me $5 change), then how does the chargeback problem get solved?

U.S. cash is a currency with a built in physical payment system (where that payment system involves using your hand to pull the cash out of your pocket, your brain to count the appropriate number of paper notes, and then using your hand to put the paper currency into someone else's hand).

Bitcoin is a currency with a built in electronic payment system (where that payment system involves typing and clicking in a computer software called a "wallet", and the wallet choosing the appropriate outputs from the wallet to spend).

Neither of them have built in chargeback support.  But services (such as escrow, bank accounts, or credit) can be built using either currency (or both).
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December 17, 2015, 12:20:45 PM
 #3

I don't think a feature like this would work with bitcoin, it would open it up to even more scams and who would decide if something is worthy of a chargeback or not as bitcoin has no governing body like Paypal which would have a team to decide if a chargeback is required or not.

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December 17, 2015, 12:21:37 PM
 #4

One solution to this problem in the bitcoin world is multisig escrow. An address is created with the buyer, the seller and a trusted third party having a private key. Two out of the three private keys can authorize a transaction. The buyer pays the sum to this multisig address. After the seller has verified the payment, he fulfills his part of the deal. If everything is fine, buyer and seller sign a transaction to transfer the money from to the seller. If the buyer or the seller is cheating, the escrower can sign a transaction together with the buyer or with the seller.
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December 17, 2015, 12:26:16 PM
 #5

One solution to this problem in the bitcoin world is multisig escrow. An address is created with the buyer, the seller and a trusted third party having a private key. Two out of the three private keys can authorize a transaction. The buyer pays the sum to this multisig address. After the seller has verified the payment, he fulfills his part of the deal. If everything is fine, buyer and seller sign a transaction to transfer the money from to the seller. If the buyer or the seller is cheating, the escrower can sign a transaction together with the buyer or with the seller.

This involves to many people and to much in fees over time.  Buyers want to come in and make a purchase and leave, they do not want to wait around and they want security.  When it comes to cash, someone made the comment, where is the protection?  There is none other than the return policy of the store location and their business ethic.  People who are looking for that security are looking to use their credit card because they have that protection.  This protection is something that the credit card company pays for, not the government or the people, so this is in the works, but because of the slow progression and acceptance by the people, this will still take some time.  We have a group of designers working on something as such right now and we think it will work out for all parties involved.

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December 17, 2015, 12:31:06 PM
 #6

One solution to this problem in the bitcoin world is multisig escrow.
- snip -
This involves to many people and to much in fees over time.
- snip -
When it comes to cash, someone made the comment, where is the protection? 
- snip -
People who are looking for that security are looking to use their credit card because they have that protection.
- snip -

Huh

So, using escrow with bitcoin "involves to many people and to much in fees", but using a credit card with cash doesn't?

If people are willing to involve multiple parties with credit cards (for cash), then why wouldn't they be willing to involve multiple parties with escrow (for bitcoins)?

If people are willing to accept the return policy with cash, why wouldn't they be willing to accept the return policy with bitcoins?
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December 17, 2015, 12:41:47 PM
 #7

One solution to this problem in the bitcoin world is multisig escrow. An address is created with the buyer, the seller and a trusted third party having a private key. Two out of the three private keys can authorize a transaction. The buyer pays the sum to this multisig address. After the seller has verified the payment, he fulfills his part of the deal. If everything is fine, buyer and seller sign a transaction to transfer the money from to the seller. If the buyer or the seller is cheating, the escrower can sign a transaction together with the buyer or with the seller.
This involves to many people and to much in fees over time.  Buyers want to come in and make a purchase and leave, they do not want to wait around and they want security.

The third party escrow is involved when the buyer or the seller is a scammer. Otherwise it's simple. The only additional step is, that the buyer has to acknowledge the payment to the seller to settle the deal.

The best thing is that the buyer and the seller are protected by using multisig escrow. The system is better, faster and cheaper than a credit card or paypal transaction.
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December 17, 2015, 01:04:24 PM
 #8

If something is broken that I bought with fiat, I cannot issue a chargeback if I didn't use a creditcard/paypal.

I'm already dependant on the shop obliging with the law. This will not change and chargebacks are therefore not an issue for me imo. Just make sure you pick your shops well and you should be fine.
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December 17, 2015, 01:20:42 PM
 #9

Just use a service like BitPay. https://bitpay.com/features#billing

Quote
Direct Bitcoin Refunds
Manage under and overpaid invoices and issue bitcoin refunds directly to any bitcoin wallet through your BitPay merchant dashboard.


(I know you already said this Danny but a real world example makes it more clear.)

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December 17, 2015, 01:44:28 PM
 #10

Just use a service like BitPay. https://bitpay.com/features#billing

Quote
Direct Bitcoin Refunds
Manage under and overpaid invoices and issue bitcoin refunds directly to any bitcoin wallet through your BitPay merchant dashboard.


(I know you already said this Danny but a real world example makes it more clear.)

Bitpays perfect,  I've but needed to do any charge backs but most shops that accept btc use some sort of escrow.

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December 17, 2015, 01:50:59 PM
 #11


Huh

So, using escrow with bitcoin "involves to many people and to much in fees", but using a credit card with cash doesn't?

If people are willing to involve multiple parties with credit cards (for cash), then why wouldn't they be willing to involve multiple parties with escrow (for bitcoins)?

If people are willing to accept the return policy with cash, why wouldn't they be willing to accept the return policy with bitcoins?
I have to respond to this:
Escrow service rates are currently averaging about 2 times that of credit card processing.  At this time there is no Bitcoin processing, so this involves a third party confirmation which will have to be manual at this time for there are no services set up which are automatic.  Customers do not want to wait to spend their money when they can pay cash or credit card and walk out the door with in seconds.

People will be willing to involve multiple parties with Bitcoin, but those parties are not all out there and automated yet.  I am all for Bitcoin and I am working towards parts of this, but as a person, how could you convince them to take all the time to get a wallet just to have limited places to spend it because there are no autimated spending systems in place yet.

I am not saying people will not take returns with Bitcoin, I am saying if the business is not trusted that well, people may not be willing to use Bitcoin with out some form of security if have an issue. 

These are all things that people who are not familiar with Bitcoin think.

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December 17, 2015, 02:03:48 PM
 #12

Just use a service like BitPay. https://bitpay.com/features#billing

Quote
Direct Bitcoin Refunds
Manage under and overpaid invoices and issue bitcoin refunds directly to any bitcoin wallet through your BitPay merchant dashboard.


(I know you already said this Danny but a real world example makes it more clear.)

Bitpays perfect,  I've but needed to do any charge backs but most shops that accept btc use some sort of escrow.

Well, I guess your fucked then.

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December 17, 2015, 02:06:37 PM
 #13

It's pretty clear now Bitcoin is the ultimate store of value in terms of being able to subvert capital controls and other forms of slavery, it's the best way to move money from A to B, and a bunch of other things.

But focusing on daily usage by the average joe: How does the chargeback problem get solved?
If someone buys something, and this something is broken and they want their money back, or something the lines, what guarantees that he will the money back since the transactions cannot be reversed? You could say this is a feature, but for a lot of average joes out there, this is otherworldly and they want to know that they can get their money back because this gives them peace of mind.

What to say to those that criticize the lack of chargebacks in Bitcoin beyond "it's a feature" which is rather subjective?
Is something in the works to solve this and actually securely allow chargebacks?

chargebacks basically will not be available for bitcoins because then scammers will scam more like paypal scammers.
Bitcoin is best today the way it is easy and stable to use like a paper money .
No limit. No restriction. Anything you can do with bitcoin. Let it be a free bird like currency to use. Chargeback will make bitcoin dull and worse to use.
If anyone donot like bitcoin then use paypal to get chargebacks.
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December 17, 2015, 02:22:39 PM
 #14

It seems to me that there are two possibilities for chargebacks that lie behind what we are talking about here:

1. Chargebacks at the discretion of the merchant who sold the goods and received payment.
2. Chargebacks at the discretion of some 3rd party intermediary.

As Danny Hamilton put it so well, there is nothing inherent about dollar bills or any other fiat that makes chargebacks possible, same as with bitcoin. So bitcoin is not at any kind of disadvantage whatsoever, compared to fiat, on this subject. It's just a question of what kind of services spring up to provide chargeback mechanisms in the bitcoin ecosystem, and whether people find them worth the trouble and expense.

Most reputable merchants that want to stick around offer some kind of reasonable returns policy, which covers chargebacks under option #1 above. They can offer their own chargeback policy irrespective of what form of payment was used, so bitcoin is presumably on the same footing here as anything else. In fact, it may have this one advantage: With fiat scammers can take an item to a store that was not bought there, and under some return policies they can walk away with cash. (For example, by buying an item for $100 from a discount chain, then walking into an upscale store with the same item and claiming they lost the receipt, but get $120 back for the item because of a lenient return policy). With bitcoin this can be prevented by having  a policy state that returned funds always get sent back to the originating public key - an advantage for merchants.

For option #2, merchants and consumers will have to use some form of an escrow service or other intermediary that is mutually given the authority to make judgments on chargebacks. For mundane purchases I doubt this will be worth it, but for high-value and/or risky transactions I can see services like this finding a niche (as indeed they already have.)

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December 17, 2015, 03:35:49 PM
 #15

There are ways to do this but they require a third party and basically is not decentralized which is the main point of Bitcoin. We are managing to decentralize marketplaces with something OpenBazar, the next step are decentralized exchanges, decentralized loans (with proper collateral and whatnot, not the BTCJam stuff), and then decentralized chargebacks too without needing something like Bitpay.
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December 17, 2015, 04:11:14 PM
 #16

It's pretty clear now Bitcoin is the ultimate store of value in terms of being able to subvert capital controls and other forms of slavery, it's the best way to move money from A to B, and a bunch of other things.

But focusing on daily usage by the average joe: How does the chargeback problem get solved?
If someone buys something, and this something is broken and they want their money back, or something the lines, what guarantees that he will the money back since the transactions cannot be reversed? You could say this is a feature, but for a lot of average joes out there, this is otherworldly and they want to know that they can get their money back because this gives them peace of mind.

What to say to those that criticize the lack of chargebacks in Bitcoin beyond "it's a feature" which is rather subjective?
Is something in the works to solve this and actually securely allow chargebacks?

Bitcoin is a currency.  If you want a service that provides chargeback support, then there can be services built that use bitcoin and provide that just like there are for any currency.

Let me make the point clear with an example using a different currency...

If I walk into a store and purchase something that costs $15 with U.S. cash (hand the cashier a $20 bill, and they hand me $5 change), then how does the chargeback problem get solved?

U.S. cash is a currency with a built in physical payment system (where that payment system involves using your hand to pull the cash out of your pocket, your brain to count the appropriate number of paper notes, and then using your hand to put the paper currency into someone else's hand).

Bitcoin is a currency with a built in electronic payment system (where that payment system involves typing and clicking in a computer software called a "wallet", and the wallet choosing the appropriate outputs from the wallet to spend).

Neither of them have built in chargeback support.  But services (such as escrow, bank accounts, or credit) can be built using either currency (or both).

This.

Long story short, when using BTC directly (no 3rd parties) just act the same as when paying cash or vouchers/giftcards: choose reputable merchants + keep the receipts and you should be fine.

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December 17, 2015, 05:32:37 PM
 #17

I agree that you need to choose a reputable vendor to make purchases from, however, if there was some form of security that could be placed for vendors and customers for purchases from online vendors or trade show vendors, more people would be willing to use them.  The key is making the consumer feel safe in order to push this as a currency and not just some asset identified by the government.

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December 17, 2015, 05:44:02 PM
 #18

Charge backs can not happen and that is one of the keys to Bitcoin.  The people who buy and sell Bitcoin feel comfortable with the fact that is can not be controlled like Paypal can do with your money.  Bitcoin is owned by the people in whole and the fact that charge backs do not exists is what makes it secure, in my opinion.

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December 17, 2015, 05:53:54 PM
 #19

How having charge backs is going to help Bitcoin ? It won't . In fact most of people who are using Bitcoin right now probably use it because it's a secure method that they can use to sell their stuff . Beside & in my opinion , Bitcoin not allowing charge-backs just decrease scams because it makes people more careful when they buy stuff .

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December 17, 2015, 06:55:50 PM
 #20

this can be solved already with an escrow helding your money and releasing it nly when you're done with your order and it is fully functional

take purse.io for example, you decide when you release the money from the escrowe to the buyers, it will work the same on open bazar
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