Mental illness is most likely a fiction

[bb113]

I think its important to note that whether or not we call them illnessess or injuries or whatever, the current treatment regimes are far overrated and overtrusted.

[1715380227]

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[myrkul]

He's not denying that the conditions exist. What he is denying is that they are illnesses. A more accurate term would be injury.

how is that even relevant as long as he doesnt point out what implications that distinction should have, in his opinion?

If you catch a cold, you can hardly blame the guy who gave it to you. (Well, you can, but there's nothing you can do about it.) If someone breaks your leg, however....

[nybble41]

If you catch a cold, you can hardly blame the guy who gave it to you. (Well, you can, but there's nothing you can do about it.) If someone breaks your leg, however....

It's not really as much of a difference as you're implying. The distinction here is whether the other party intended to cause you harm. We overlook minor, commonplace things like catching a cold from someone for two reasons; first, it's rarely deliberate, and second, we all expect to accidentally give someone else a cold or similar at some point, so on the whole it evens out and isn't worth getting upset about. However, if someone deliberately exposed you to a disease, however minor, that would be a form of assault, just as if they'd beat you up or broken your leg, or injected you with poison.

It's worth noting that "illness" can refer to conditions which are not contagious; cancer, for example, or malnutrition, or a chemical imbalance. Merriam-Webster gives the medical definition as "an unhealthy condition of body or mind". It's a very general term. While mental conditions certainly do not seem to resemble viral or bacterial infections (unless you count certain memes...), one can hardly argue that they aren't "unhealthy conditions".

I would say the term illness is more applicable, the the general sense, than injury, though injury (abuse) may be involved in causing the illness. A blow to the head is an injury; the resulting concussion is an illness. A similar relationship applies between mental abuse and mental illness.

[tbdunamis]

No, I think I'd rather mock you for your stupid beliefs some more.

You're correct, this is a very serious and important issue. Millions of people suffer from mental illnesses, and your contention that their illnesses don't exist is borderline offensive. More importantly, the lack of recognition and treatment of these illnesses leads to tragedies like the Aurora theater shooting and the Connecticut school shooting. You are simply adding to the stigma that mental health treatment already has.

Basically, you are part of the problem.

He's not denying that the conditions exist. What he is denying is that they are illnesses. A more accurate term would be injury.

The distinction between an illness and an injury is very significant.  An injury is an effect of a cause which can be resolved by entering into another cause.  An illness is indicative of a condition which suggests that a person is a victim of such a state.  And it is this perceived state of victimization that organized healthcare, particularly the pharmaceutical companies, profits from.

[organofcorti]

No, I think I'd rather mock you for your stupid beliefs some more.

You're correct, this is a very serious and important issue. Millions of people suffer from mental illnesses, and your contention that their illnesses don't exist is borderline offensive. More importantly, the lack of recognition and treatment of these illnesses leads to tragedies like the Aurora theater shooting and the Connecticut school shooting. You are simply adding to the stigma that mental health treatment already has.

Basically, you are part of the problem.

He's not denying that the conditions exist. What he is denying is that they are illnesses. A more accurate term would be injury.

The distinction between an illness and an injury is very significant.  An injury is an effect of a cause which can be resolved by entering into another cause.  An illness is indicative of a condition which suggests that a person is a victim of such a state.  And it is this perceived state of victimization that organized healthcare, particularly the pharmaceutical companies, profits from.

In terms of the OP, there is no significant difference between illness and injury. A mental illness cause by trauma or genetically is no different from a mental illness caused by experiences which cause changes to the brain having the same effect. If the outcome is the same, then differentiating between the two is pointless and also prejudicial.

[deus-ex-machina]

So by your definition, OP, my high-functioning Autism (aka Asperger's Syndrome) is either invented or a mental illness?

And yet not only do I have a different physical brain structure (not sure what the real term is) to prove my Autism, but I happen to have an above average IQ and boosted Math skills, with the only side effect being my inability to understand specific social cues.

Tell me more about how I'm an undesirable. I'm sure you know more about disorders than someone who actually has one.

[myrkul]

So by your definition, OP, my high-functioning Autism (aka Asperger's Syndrome) is either invented or a mental illness?

And yet not only do I have a different physical brain structure (not sure what the real term is) to prove my Autism, but I happen to have an above average IQ and boosted Math skills, with the only side effect being my inability to understand specific social cues.

Tell me more about how I'm an undesirable. I'm sure you know more about disorders than someone who actually has one.

This is not what he's saying.

Most "mental illness" is more accurately termed damage, caused by abuse. Your condition is completely different. I'm not up on the causes of Asperger's or other autism spectrum conditions, but I might even call Asperger's a beneficial adaptation. As you say, above average IQ, and higher mathematical ability. Poor social skills seems a pretty good trade for that.

[cunicula]

He's not denying that the conditions exist. What he is denying is that they are illnesses. A more accurate term would be injury.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120816170400.htm

Does a viral infection count as illness or injury?

(Note the numbers are very significant here: 10-20% of people carry the T. Gondii infection. People with T. Gondii infection are 7 times more likely to attempt suicide. -> 60% or more of suicide attempts could be T. Gondii-related).

Alternatively, perhaps the axioms of natural law dictate that T. Gondii is either (a) caused by child abuse or (b) imaginary. Ask the cult leader for the correct answer. Interpretations of natural law at this level are quite subtle.

Or perhaps cat ownership is child abuse?
http://healthland.time.com/2012/07/03/are-cat-ladies-more-likely-to-attempt-suicide/

(In the mouse, infection causes a loss of cat aversion. Maybe a strong infection could turn you into a upstanding Statist? Keep your girls clear of the cat litter Myrkul.)

[bb113]

He's not denying that the conditions exist. What he is denying is that they are illnesses. A more accurate term would be injury.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120816170400.htm

Does a viral infection count as illness or injury?

(Note the numbers are very significant here: 10-20% of people carry the T. Gondii infection. People with T. Gondii infection are 7 times more likely to attempt suicide. -> 60% or more of suicide attempts could be T. Gondii-related).

Alternatively, perhaps the axioms of natural law dictate that T. Gondii is either (a) caused by child abuse or (b) imaginary. Ask the cult leader for the correct answer. Interpretations of natural law at this level are quite subtle.

Or perhaps cat ownership is child abuse?
http://healthland.time.com/2012/07/03/are-cat-ladies-more-likely-to-attempt-suicide/

(In the mouse, infection causes a loss of cat aversion. Maybe a strong infection could turn you into a upstanding Statist? Keep your girls clear of the cat litter Myrkul.)

Did you read that paper? It has all the hallmarks of being an exaggeration or outright false positive.
1) It has  no figures and only two tables. One has an obvious error indicating inadequate peer review. Nowhere is the actual data shown.
2) Main source of data is reported to be "severely skewed and bimodal"
3) Much larger effect size than expected due to previous literature. Implausible effect sizes are a trademark of false positives.
4) Strange, unequal sample sizes indicating they were likely not determined beforehand and high probability that sequential sampling occurred.
5) They actually admit to making multiple comparisons, but do not correct for this before making inferences.
6) Control group and Suicide group exclusion criteria vary greatly. The effect of this is not assessed.
-What is the toxo antigen they used? Could there be a human gene the antibody to it also reacts with that is upregulated by SSRI, etc treatment?


Also, you have misinterpreted odds ratio as a risk ratio, and the claims you make don't make sense on the face of it: google says about 33% of US households have at least one cat while attempted suicide rates are close to .1% of people.

Anyway, if there actually was strong evidence that having a cat lead to your children having mental disorders later in life, I think it would widely be considered as child abuse.

[bb113]

(In the mouse, infection causes a loss of cat aversion. Maybe a strong infection could turn you into a upstanding Statist? Keep your girls clear of the cat litter Myrkul.)

Also, I forgot to mention, this is actually likely much closer to the effects of toxo infestation (it's a brain parasite not a virus). Here are the results from a good paper that doesn't try to make ridiculous claims or hide the data. They do fit a line when it looks like a log or sigmoidal curve would be better though:

Prevalence was positively, but weakly and not
significantly, associated with the cultural dimensions of
uncertainty avoidance (n=32, R2=0.07, p=0.061)
....

Individuals in populations that rate high in the cultural
dimension of uncertainty avoidance feel threatened by
uncertain or unknown situations, leading to a ruleoriented
society geared to reduce uncertainty

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1635495/pdf/rspb20063641.pdf